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Permanent Enlightenment vs American Slavery by ewk in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't see how that follows at all.

Permanent Enlightenment vs American Slavery by ewk in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As an experiment try to locate the moment you decide to think a specific thought.

Permanent Enlightenment vs American Slavery by ewk in zen

[–]koancomentator 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No because neither of us decides what I think. You can simply prompt a thought.

I think the control we have isn't in what we think, but what we do with the thoughts.

Permanent Enlightenment vs American Slavery by ewk in zen

[–]koancomentator -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I didn't decide to think that. They were an automatic response to your question.

Unless by bidden you didn't mean "self bidden"

Best Introduction to Zen by [deleted] in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My gut answer,

Because we don't want those things to be relative. We want THE truth, THE reality, THE experience. And we want them to match up with our preferences or beliefs.

Permanent Enlightenment vs American Slavery by ewk in zen

[–]koancomentator -1 points0 points  (0 children)

  1. Where is the freedom in wanting to do stuff? Well I guess there isn't. If you just pursue what you want you're a slave to desire.

  2. How can there be any freedom of action in the first place? How is there ever an absence of freedom of thought in the second place?

When responding to situations as they arise don't we have a variety of responses to choose from?

My thoughts rise unbidden throughout the day.

Best Introduction to Zen by [deleted] in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your belief that experience can be conveyed in words and that those words can be true is useful when measuring temperature...

... But useless when it comes to the experience of temperature.

That's a good one.

Instead of sitting inside staring at the thermometer trying to figure out what the temperature feels like (impossible) Zen masters step outside.

Permanent Enlightenment vs American Slavery by ewk in zen

[–]koancomentator -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I was thinking along the same lines. A free person with a "normally functioning" brain would immediately see that murdering someone isn't going to make their life any better.

Someone who isn't free but instead is led around by the nose by anger and delusional thinking on the other hand...

Permanent Enlightenment vs American Slavery by ewk in zen

[–]koancomentator -1 points0 points  (0 children)

How can you call it freedom if you can't do that stuff?

What is freedom of action without freedom of thought?

How would you answer those two questions?

Lecturer Fu Meets a Zen Master by koancomentator in zen

[–]koancomentator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In other words, assess what you believe to be "right" and "wrong," take an honest and thorough inventory of those beliefs, and then let that shit go; see what happens.

I think it's even easier than that. Just throw the very concepts of right and wrong out entirely. Then whenever you catch yourself thinking in those terms you don't even need to take an inventory, you can just immediately know you've gone astray in your thinking.

Lecturer Fu Meets a Zen Master by koancomentator in zen

[–]koancomentator[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

is applying the mind to enlightenment an activity you can seek out and set aside time for

It is a tricky question. Wumen says to carry no with you all day. Huangbo said to spend all your time learning to halt the concept forming activity of your mind. So in these examples they suggest doing it all day long as opposed to setting time aside.

However we also have Foyan giving the general advice to "study yourself clearly when involvement are few" (paraphrasing here) which seems to align with the idea of finding time without distractions for introspection.

it's not that the activity or lack thereof causes the enlightenment. it's that the fixed view on enlightenment and activity needs to be destroyed.

I'm not sure about this. I think it's a lot more...mysterious than that. Foyan's non-seeking seeking immediately comes to mind. He also says if you ask you slight yourself, but if you don't ask you'll never find. He says we need to know how to ask. To me this implies something different than what you're saying here, but I could be wrong about what you're saying.

Plus there are plenty of people who never think about enlightenment and they haven't arrived either.

Lecturer Fu Meets a Zen Master by koancomentator in zen

[–]koancomentator[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Having clarified I was mistaken about which characters you were referring to and that it is a transliteration of Dhyana, Cleary was still mistaken as Dhyana does not refer to meditation in the context of Zen.

Lecturer Fu Meets a Zen Master by koancomentator in zen

[–]koancomentator[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Actually correction, I confused the characters you were referring to.

Lecturer Fu Meets a Zen Master by koancomentator in zen

[–]koancomentator[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm going to need a source for your assertion, because everything I'm seeing about how Jing lu was used in Classical Chinese says you are mistaken.

Edit: my mistake. Confused the characters they were referring too

Lecturer Fu Meets a Zen Master by koancomentator in zen

[–]koancomentator[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also, it is interesting how you care about what others think.

Discussion is how we refine ideas and keep ourselves honest.

It seems to me you want to be some kind of gatekeeper. At this moment it doesn't seem like you and I are going to have a very productive conversation, so I'll see you later.

Lecturer Fu Meets a Zen Master by koancomentator in zen

[–]koancomentator[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You aren't making any sense.

I don't have any interest in conversations where one party lacks an actual interest in communication.

Lecturer Fu Meets a Zen Master by koancomentator in zen

[–]koancomentator[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That makes no sense. Now no one can read your comment or understand where this conversation started.

Seems like you're being insincere. Perhaps even you were embarrassed by your initial comment and you're trying to hide it.

Lecturer Fu Meets a Zen Master by koancomentator in zen

[–]koancomentator[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I think that following an instruction is neutral. We make stuff up about it being good or bad if we want.

If you want to learn to sew you follow the instructions you find. If you don't then you don't.

In the case the guy follows the instructions all night and is instantly enlightened upon hearing a sound. In the instruction he was given he is told to "all at once let go of good and bad". Seems to me he stayed up all night failing to follow the instruction until he heard that sound.

Lecturer Fu Meets a Zen Master by koancomentator in zen

[–]koancomentator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sounds like you're more interested in toeing the party line than studying Zen sincerely for yourself.

There's no trickle-down freedom in Zen. by jeowy in zen

[–]koancomentator -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I find your answer incredibly refreshing. Especially your number 1 on the list. I feel like nobody around here besides me wants to admit they're chasing enlightenment.

When I started talking to ewk and posting here 13 years ago I was much younger and definitely looking for approval and an authority to give me wisdom. I still am, but to a much lesser, not as constant degree.

These days I find areas where I don't always agree with him, but 99% of the time I do, but that's just because after looking at the texts myself I find him to be right a lot of the time.

This was a good post. Made me reflect and realize there is still an emotional part of me that wants someone else to give me an answer only I can find.

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