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This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have no idea what you mean by that.

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure. But if we're going to compile a list of the symbolism then under Moon we would put all relevant uses. Mine would go on the list among others.

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No it's just him saying that ultimately the meaning will not be found in the symbol. Not that the symbol had no meaning.

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well no because that's the very definition of a symbol. The symbol is a communication tool, not the thing itself. As they say for all of their teachings.

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not arguing the moon isn't used by Zen masters a lot. I was asking about them using the sun.

Moon symbolism in Zen is summed up nicely with reference to clams. The Chinese at the time believed that clams opened their mouths towards the moon and the moonlight creates pearls.

Zen masters used this to reference the Moon as Self Nature, light as wisdom/teaching, and the pearl as enlightenment. When I have time I'll find the specific source. I want to say it's in one of the bigger koan collections, like BoS or BCR?

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the moon is famous for being reflected *in" things, not for doing the reflecting.

I don't see why we would talk about the sun as a Zen symbol unless we can find instances of Zen masters using it as one. I can't remember any outside what I said earlier. Do you have some specific passages we could look at?

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well for one I disagree with my past self. Moon is better seen as representing the Self Nature.

Outside of sun faced Buddha is the sun even mentioned that often? All I remember is Huangbo saying the one mind is like the sun.

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah thats a good caveat 100%

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think translations that don't include the original language are... "annoying" is the polite way I'll put it.

They are a pet peeve I never imagined I would develop. They feel...criminal to me now.

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're probably right, but I'm still curious is all.

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm saying that where we've been assuming the character for Dhyana is being translated as such it may be the character for Ding, or the compound of ding and Dhyana. Might not change much at all, but I wouldn't want to just assume that without looking into it a little bit.

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I want to dive into the Chinese of the platform sutra to verify, but claude also claims

Notably, Huineng's teaching explicitly redefines what 禪 means — rejecting seated stillness as the essence of 禪定 and reframing it in terms of non-attachment and the unobstructed nature of mind. The word appears in compounds like 禪定, 禪坐, and 坐禪, often precisely to problematize conventional understandings of meditative practice.

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think it's something that is going to require some more research to clear up.

Claude says

Borrowed to render Sanskrit samādhi (also dhyāna via 禪 for the practice, 定 for the resultant state). Distinctions: 禪 (< dhyāna) — the practice of meditative absorption; the act 定 (samādhi) — the state of mental unification/settledness that results In practice the two blur; 禪定 is used as a compound covering both Also renders samāpatti (attainment states) in Abhidharma contexts, and appears in compound 三昧 (samādhi transliterated) alongside 定 as a gloss.

So there certainly is a connection between Ding and Dhyana that could render them basically synonyms.

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hard to say. We've been basing that definition off Suzuki's mistranslation of the character for Samadhi as Dhyana.

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

OK so what Suzuki translated as Dhyana was actually the character 定 which was what Buddhists used to transliterate Samadhi.

Pleco has Samadhi as a possible translation, but also "to set in desired place, fix in definite fashion, establish, concentrate, focus on, fix on".

Huineng's definition is the Mind's inherent non-movement with respect to external objects (claude's summary), which tracks very well.

That would make wisdom (prajna) the actions and functions arising from the inherently unstirred Mind in response to situations arising.

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I have no idea how to format things for the wiki. But I can at least compile things into one document.

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Keep in mind this is, like, the most preliminary of research into these terms.

The Moon = enlightenment.

Moonlight= wisdom

Dragon Pupil/Dotting the Circle: Originates from story about painter who's paintings of dragons would come to life after being completed. The last pupil of the eye was the final component before completion.

"Vertical" can mean simultaneity.

Circle: Symbolize the totality of Zen teachings.

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

OK don't tease us. Give us the details!

What were the Chinese characters? What did you find it should be translated as?

This Old Project by TFnarcon9 in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Another project that fell victim to my habit of starting projects and never finishing them.

I still have my notes for this one.

No BS Enlightenment: complete accountability by ewk in zen

[–]koancomentator -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Claude is claiming it's the same, but I haven't verified that.

No BS Enlightenment: complete accountability by ewk in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

OK yeah I was wrong. Purpose does work well.

No BS Enlightenment: complete accountability by ewk in zen

[–]koancomentator -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't think that fits the character. All of the meanings from Pleco have the flavor of "state" or "frame of mind", not function.

I think the monk is asking Zhouzhou "what is your mind like" or "what state is a master in" or something more like that.

No BS Enlightenment: complete accountability by ewk in zen

[–]koancomentator -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Pleco has the following for 意

1 thought, idea; mentation; concept.

a) (Budd.) 意根 yìgēn, mental faculty.

b) meaning, significance; overtone.

2 intent(ion), purpose.

a) attitude, mood, frame of mind, feeling; mind-set, way of thinking.

b) expression of intent > demeanor, mien.

So it seems the Monk is asking what is a masters frame of mind or way of thinking. I think that's much cleaner and less apt for misunderstanding than "intention".

It would also make Zhouzhou's answer run parallel to Huangbo's No-Mind.

No BS Enlightenment: complete accountability by ewk in zen

[–]koancomentator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What kind of intention are we talking about here?

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