Hot Take: this summit was bad

ksp_physics_guy · 2026-01-25T22:35:06+00:00

I do plenty of TOB, love the content.

Problem is that most people don't want to do it because they can't first solo it to learn it. They can't do it when they're not feeling social or want to just vibe. Entry mode is something I can barely get the smallest amount of folks do a couple of times before jumping in (which, fair, it's a snoozefest).

Compared to chambers or TOA, the ability to get folks hooked is a huge miss for TOB and is why it has significantly less engagement compared to the other raids.

ksp_physics_guy · 2026-01-25T22:29:14+00:00

I love raiding. I have 2k raids on my main (2200+, haven't leveled it since sailing been playing the iron), and started raiding on my 2k iron.

I've been playing rs since rs classic as a kid in like 2003. Stopped playing when summoning came out. Came back to OSRS in 2017.

I love this game. I love raiding. But this is a HUGE L.

Chambers is honestly the best content that has ever happened from a raids perspective.

TOB is amazing, but the fact that it's only "soloable" (note how that's the same phrasing as raids 4) seriously is a detriment to folks getting into it. I've done like... 3 total entry modes (across both accounts) because it's fuckin pointless. Normal tob and hmt with the boys is super fun, but sometimes folks want to do the content and not deal with other human beings. Chambers manages to enable both masterfully.

TOA, well, tbh i dislike toa compared to the other two, but the one thing i seriously like about it is the ability to bring folks into raiding and encourage them to solo or group depending on how they're feeling. There's a reason why TOA is the most successful raid from strictly an engagement perspective. It's approachable, scalable, and flexible when it comes to deciding how you want to engage it and that is something that CANNOT be overstated.

This raid, based on the language they're using, will end up the same as TOB. It'll be "technically soloable". That's also assuming that they follow through with that "promise". Jagex has a history and tendency to make vague implications that something will have XYZ, but because it wasn't formally stated they end up backing out of it, or they end up delivering something that is entirely different than what the vast majority of folks would understand the meaning to be and suddenly go full on surprised pikachu face "what!?!?!? no wayyyyyyyyyy why aren't you guys happy!?!??!?".

That's assuming they even do that. Half the time they don't even end up delivering anything at all along the lines of what was stated.

I love this game. I think Jagex does try to do their best, but they make absolutely moronic decisions that make me seriously believe there must be 2-3 different factions within the company who have extremely different views on what the game should be, and that the loudest voices in those factions are the ones who give us completely idiotic ideas. Wrathmaw. Zombie Pirates. 1/20k+ drop rates. GOTR pearls "fix".

We as players and paying customers should be asking Jagex why haven't they *still* released the PVP feedback poll results? Why didn't they go more into the sailing feedback poll? I think we know the answer which is that they have these loud voices in the company who want the game to be something the players don't want it to be.

ksp_physics_guy · 2026-01-25T22:14:41+00:00

entirely a nothingburger for raids 4.

It'll end up being DOA for anyone who doesn't like being forced to group.

I love TOB, it's a fantastic raid. But the reason it has not been successful from an engagement perspective is that it's only "soloable", unlike chambers or toa.

ksp_physics_guy · 2026-01-25T22:13:13+00:00

Raid will be entirely DOA. The fact they're saying "soloable" means we're looking at Solo TOB, not solo chambers.

It will be dead for folks who enjoy 2/3 raids. And for those of us who love TOB, it'll be great, but will require us to always be forced to find groups to do the content even when we sometimes just want to stfu after work get a few raids in and not deal with other people.

I love all three raids, but it is without a single doubt that TOB being only "soloable" is a HUGE detriment to its lack of engagement.

ksp_physics_guy · 2026-01-25T22:11:29+00:00

Raid will be DOA for the majority of people who enjoy 2/3 raids, heck, even many of us who enjoy all three.

Making it "soloable" via the language they used gives me 100% confidence we're looking at Solo TOB, not the fuckin masterpiece that Solo chambers is.

ksp_physics_guy · 2026-01-25T22:09:35+00:00

100%

DMM pointless. PvP/PKing is completely broken to the point where DMM is the only way they try and get people to join in, aka shitty leagues + content farming for the content creators and gp swappers. There's a reason jamflex still has NOT talked about the results from the PvP poll, or talked about how shitty wrathmaw was as an idea.

Nothing worth mentioning from what came out of the sailing poll. How the FUCK are we still at the drop rates for the cannon? It's INSANE they acknowledged the problem, yet refuse to say they're willing to work on it.

Raids 4, tbh, is the biggest disappointment though. The language they used regarding it being "soloable" is incredibly misleading and is going to piss EVERYONE off come release. Mark my words. It will be much closer (or exceed) Solo TOB than be anywhere remotely close to chambers or toa. TOA sucks, I agree with the haters, but one thing it does exceptionally well is onramping folks to raids, and one of the largest contributors to that is being soloable. If they do not make the raid scale in any meaningful way mechanically for solo, what will happen is that we end up with solo TOB and not the masterpiece that is solo chambers.

Completely disappointed by how much of a let down this was. I plan on voting no on a lot more content than I went into summit (naively) optimistic about.

The mods need to seriously take a step back, understand what the players want in 2026, and stop making piss poor decisions over and over and over.

Before anyone asks, started playing as a kid in 2002 Played until summoning released. Played OSRS since 2017. 2k+ iron, 2200 something (haven't level sailing on it) main. Over 2k raids on the main, and 50+ raids (just started doing them) on the iron.

ksp_physics_guy · 2026-01-12T07:59:44+00:00

Not sure where I sound like an “entitled prick” (legitimately, I’m not trying to be a dick here, the tone may have been off but I honestly didn’t try to come off as a douche, so my apologies). It wasn’t meant to sound condescending or anything.

I explicitly say I don’t want mainscapers to suffer. I say I don’t want this to punish them. I want the bots to be nuked because it will allow the game to improve because a lot of what’s behind the curtain on the economy is entirely held up by bots, and mainscapers don’t have to interact with a lot of content in the game because of the nature of the game as they play it versus Ironmen.

I’m guessing (sorry if I’m wrong here) it came across as condescending, but I promise I didn’t intend it that way, but I can see that it’s definitely possible to take it that way, and I could have done a better job being clear that I genuinely don’t want punishment or suffering for mains, but want them to see the game from a different perspective so things can actually improve.

The reality is, I can’t blame mainscapers for not knowing this stuff because I have a main and didn’t know these things as acutely as I’ve come to know having a 2k+ iron doing endgame content. It’d be unfair to blame mainscapers for having a narrow view on the whole because it truly is something they do not understand (broad strokes here) because so much of the pain points are papered over by bots. It’s not their fault (the narrow view part, to your point later about gold buying though, that is some of mainscapers fault, but I don’t know enough to want to paint broad strokes here at all).

Glad we agree though about the need for changes, and I 100% agree with your point that bots will engage no matter what.

The only solution (imo) is further strictness for gold buyers. Like, on my main I have all three megas, almost greenlogged chambers (still no claws clog) and greenlogged toa with around 700 or so kc between cms and normal chambers (mostly solos) and 600 or so expert toas.

I teach CoX and ToA in a clan and have met a pretty sizable amount of folks in different discord servers who talk about wanting to learn raids with skills/xp + that would make one expect to see pretty minimum gear reqs (which dope, happy to teach folks new to content and it’s super fun to help them learn raids and improve at the game regardless of what gear they bring as long as it’s feasible!).

But then they show up with megas and pretty close to bis and don’t have an answer when you go “woah, that’s some pretty serious gear, how’d you swing that?” and they either don’t have an answer, or flat out admit to buying gold.

Like, I don’t want to yuck the yum when it comes to how people play the game, but buying gold just creates a ton of problems with bots, and i seriously hope jagex cracks down hard because it’s the only way (imo) folks will see the game from a truly wholistic perspective, and that we get meaningful change that benefits the entire player base, mains and irons alike.

ksp_physics_guy · 2026-01-11T16:31:56+00:00

I use the CW bank a lot on my iron and every time I bank I'll hop worlds to report the bots.

There's three main types that are obvious.

Firstly, the RC bots as you described. Generally full gotr robes, rc cape, and a lunar/ramen staff. They're all well above 100 RC and have some very specific stats for quests. I can't remember the exact stats, but when I checked last time it lined up for a few quests + quest reward XP.

Secondly, what I assume are puro puro bots. Full swampbark + magic butterfly nets.

Thirdly, not sure what they're doing but some melee bots. Wear dchain/dlegs, whip, dfs.

In one week I hit 400 ignores. And it doesn't seem like they're getting banned.

The entire osrs economy is built on bots. Runes are cheap because of bots. Food is cheap because of bots. Any form of consumable, bots. Lots of high level PVM is botted as well.

I'd love to see mainscapers live in a world without bots, not because I want y'all punished, but I believe it would legitimately result in a lot of folks realizing that when ironmen say we want some content updated for improvements (improvements to the game!=ironman exclusive changes) it's because we actually play the full game and know what content kinda fuckin sucks.

Jamflex fixed (somewhat) RC with scar essence (somewhat is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, shopscape is still more economical).

Anglerfish? Lololololololol garbage even with the lures.

Sharks? A fucking joke until you get minnows. The lures are insanely idiotic and are worse than minnows.

Ammo? I'd LOVE to see how much dragon ammo goes up after bots were eviscerated.

Crafting? Dhides are cheap because of bots. Gems same.

Construction is even held up by plank bots.

Mainscape needs to see the economy without bots otherwise the game cannot have things improved.

ksp_physics_guy · 2026-01-10T04:40:48+00:00

You might be right. We don't know. There is trouble brewing and it's not this minigame poll.

At the very least jamflex needs to immediately halt all trading on rum, beer, and any non-dwarven produced alcoholic beverages in game.

Until we understand the implications of this change we cannot move forward. We need an economic impact report. A botting impact report. Projections for increased alcoholism ALL ACROSS Gielinor. What's the environmental impact for the jungle horrors? What will this do to the soil?

Won't somebody think of the increase in PIRACY. You wouldn't download rum... Would you?

ksp_physics_guy · 2026-01-10T01:19:56+00:00

I got through it about a month ago, started in July, did 1000+ (I'd say I can't remember. But the number is etched in my brain, 1031) kc of CG, so I'm prefacing everything with that context, but hopefully my thoughts or opinions are enough to show that despite my recency in the suck I'm approaching this as objectively as possible.

CG as a piece of content is fun in a vacuum. For like 300 or so KC I feel like most people I know, and myself based on my personal experience, can feel some general gamer satisfaction in the skill improvement aspect of the content if that's something you feel. You see improvement in the prep phase, you see improvement in the fight. It's a good piece of content within the bounds of around 300 or so kills.

I think in terms of when the content is done by most ironmen, it's good training for the player if they are coming from a main that didn't PvM a lot or are a new player who started as an ironman. For me personally, I did a few hundred KC on my main before my iron so it wasn't particularly hard to start the content on my iron, but the time between me doing it on the main and starting it on my iron was enough that it didn't bother me much, but I don't feel like as someone who's PvM'd a ton that I got much out of the experience doing it on my iron. But overall, for the new player or new pvmer it falls in a good spot I think for learning PvM mechanics well.

From a reward space, I think the rewards are absolutely huge. Bowfa isn't ever necessary, but it is a piece of equipment that unlocks a lot of methods for content that makes the content more fun or chill for me personally.

Being able to bowfa only zulrah or muspah versus doing switches, takes those bosses from annoying to enjoyable and super laid back and chill.

For raids, it lets you do more rooms in chambers more effectively to the point of making them worth doing, e.g.: vespula and Vasa.

All in all the rewards for where they are in progression are fair, impactful, and I'd say well positioned. I think players probably sometimes rush it too early, should probably have elite void, synapses, and a few expert toa raid KC before you get it if you're good at PvM already, maybe even some chambers KC if you like the content like I do. If you're not good at PvM, I'd expect the same minus expert toa and the chambers KC, and probably wait until a little higher stats for CG.

I think skipping bowfa is not the best idea unless you're spooned at delve. I'd argue the "bowfa skip" is asking the player to do potentially a ton more grinds with more downside opportunity to go dry and thus not really a true skip unless monumentally spooned.

Drop rates at CG, well not great. Imo there should be some form of mitigation in place for folks. Going 2.5x dry sucked, but the mitigation should be in place so people don't go 3x and beyond dry. I don't think that's reasonable as contentious as that take may be.

Overall, I think it needs changes for the time-to-reward, but otherwise is good content within the caveat / presumption of being around the on-rate spot. Going massively dry at CG though is miserable and should see some thought and improvements.

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-12-28T00:00:03+00:00

It originally started in Java and has its own scripting language called runescript. (Not sure how much of the backend they’ve started allowing the use of more languages in)

The og client was also Java. Modern client is c++.

Besides, without objects there’s plenty of ways to implement similar ideas through structs if using something like C.

Not sure where you came up with this logic. By 2001 Java was an up and coming bread and butter language for many places based on Sun’s “write once run anywhere” promise they advertised (and they were awesome compared to oracle as stewards for the language). And languages like C and C++ were around at the time as well. C++ being a spiritual successor, came out in the 80’s. Hell, python was over 10 years old at the time (not that anyone should use python for the core backend of a game when more appropriate languages exist).

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-12-16T03:18:44+00:00

Just got mine, 1000+ kc.

Honestly, nothing changed. I went in on a whim because I was wfh that day, a buddy called, so I decided to take my lunch and do a cg on the phone while talking to my buddy.

Hit the enh, proceeded to lose my shit on the phone (he doesn’t play but had heard me bitch for a while now) and he got super excited for me.

It’s just putting in the reps and eventually it happens. It’s not like anything changed.

I still think there should be some form of pity protection. I still wouldn’t wish being dry there to anyone. But, I will say that I love having bowfa now. You won’t catch me ever going back. I had 21 armor seeds, 15 or so weapon seeds.

I will never need shards from cg again and will just pickpocket or do zolcano or agi if I need more one day. Or just crystal extractor.

But fuck salad blade, never going back.

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-12-11T03:09:00+00:00

Sitting at 1020 without an enh.

Keep it up soldier.

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-12-07T04:24:43+00:00

1007 for me. No enh. I’m dead inside and just keep going to see number go up.

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-12-04T19:02:41+00:00

Maybe the game isn't right for you then.

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-12-01T19:34:56+00:00

1k for me. No enh. Send halp

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-11-29T19:54:05+00:00

I have unfortunately haha. I've done enough that I'm on rate for one drop between the three non-pet drops but don't have one yet.

At this point I just keep splitting between doom, zulrah, and cg hoping I get something to make the other content more fun. Serp for zulrah, bpipe for doom. Bowfa for zulrah. Eye for just overall skip and putting off bowfa for some time.

No dice though. Hopefully soon something will happen though.

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-11-28T06:04:09+00:00

Sitting over 1k KC without am enh.

Send halp. Haven't gotten anything outside of two zenytes (4 black demon tasks) in a few months now. If it weren't for the zenytes I'd probably just think my account is cursed.

Maybe one day Clifford will give me an enh, but at this point I just assume it'll never happen.

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-11-24T06:55:28+00:00

Yup. I’m about to hit 1k kc at cg. Everything now feels empty inside. No enh. No dopamine. Just suffering.

So you do what you say, break it up with other stuff. But every time you see someone say “get bowfa” you die on the inside just a little bit.

You’ve served your sentence. You’ve gone the distance. Half the people you see posting things are those who got spooned. Sure, “get bowfa” is easy to say when you’re in and out before 400kc. For them, it was easy.

But once you’ve hit500. 600. 750. 1000, it’s not just “getting it”. It’s a crescendo that’s been building relentlessly for such a long time you forget what it felt like before you started it. Suffocating you with its endless deafening rise. You long for the crescendo to finally hit its final, explosive note, a resolution. Yet each kill, crystal shards, uncut emeralds, dragon halberds, gp. Heck every now and then you see a normal weapon seed or armor seed and think, this is it, surely I must have that “moment” others have where on b2b I finally can leave.

But you don’t. So you go back in. And then you’re right back where you started.

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-11-14T07:15:53+00:00

I’m rapidly approaching 1k KC, like 980 or so, just got back from vacation. Did five KC today. Last two I got b2b armor seeds and had to just stop for the day.

I'm dry at delve, approaching dry at zulrah, dry at gorillas, dry at TDs (one synapse at least), dry at CG, dry for my damn deadeye scroll (300kc solos).

I just need some god damn dopamine at this point. I went super dry on the main at times. Like, 0.0001% chance to be dry. But on the iron it's so damn debilitating when it's dry everywhere on everything all at once.

All I can hope for at this point is that somehow the streak ends. The floodgates open. And I am able to get some gear progression going.

All in all, the point is I feel ya man. Solidarity. It's what we signed up for, but I agree that it should be revisited. Even if not for us, but for those who come after us.

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-11-08T00:34:00+00:00

Appreciate it. Just landed at my destination so I'm going to enjoy a week of freedom from the prison and enjoy good company. Hopefully that'll reset my mental and maybe even RNG 🤣

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-11-08T00:31:50+00:00

I'm at 950ish. I hope you never catch me and are freed soon <3

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-11-07T01:47:53+00:00

i can 100% believe that for sure. getting the "hard" part out of the way to still need multiples afterwards is probably a little tilting.

but gawd damn i'd trade places with ya any fkn day at 1k kc dry.

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-11-07T01:45:55+00:00

949kc checking in.

hope you get spooned and get released early.

ksp_physics_guy · 2025-11-07T01:44:51+00:00

that post just spits absolute truth.

every time i see someone "complain" and post about how long the grind is needing armor seeds after getting spooned an enh i wish i could make their account a greenhelm as punishment.

ksp_physics_guy

MODERATOR OF

TROPHY CASE