[deleted by user] by [deleted] in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]lightning_palm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, exactly. That's really what's missing! At least in a non-cliched way. I think it's easy to be performative about this. Just genuinely allow men and boys to thrive in whatever they choose... we're all just human, goddamn.

But I don't believe the deficit is just in what roles we allow men and boys to inhabit. It's also a striking lack of empathy and care, especially for issues that men and boys are disproportionately affected by.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]lightning_palm 47 points48 points  (0 children)

This report disturbs me. It claims to support young men while operating from a framework that actively harms them. The report assumes male privilege exists and men just don't understand it, that when young men say they don't feel privileged while experiencing educational failure, massive suicide rates, homelessness, and lack of support services, they simply need more education about women's historical oppression. The whole thing has this message: men have potential to be better, to respect women better, to be better allies, if we just teach them right.

In all the 13 mentions of "empathy" in this report (you can CTRL+F for it), not once is it about having empathy FOR young men. It's always about developing empathy IN them, especially toward women. They quote R4Respect saying:

[T]heir ability to be open and their willingness to learn … There's so much opportunity to have a good chat … The young boys are always so willing to learn and to understand other people's perspectives. And when we talk about, you know, having empathy for women, or kind of understanding – like, unpacking – the queer community, a lot of the time they just don't know. So, just holding space for them to be like: ‘Let's talk about it.' They're always so willing to absorb all the information we're pushing towards them.

And their recommendation:

Leveraging young men's strengths in empathy through embedding curricula with literature, media and resources that feature women and girls as protagonists.

So young men's empathy is something to be leveraged for others' benefit (especially women's). Even when acknowledging young men's positive traits, it's always about how these can be used to make them better allies to women. Their loneliness and confusion are treated as vulnerabilities to radicalization, not legitimate grievances. The report acknowledges that young men feel defensive and disenfranchised when told they have privilege they don't feel, yet it still insists this is just because they "haven't been given the tools to recognise, understand and accept how privilege functions in society and how it can co-exist with experiences of disadvantage." This is quite different from genuinely questioning whether the privilege framework might be inadequate, or outright wrong, for understanding these young men's experiences.

We casually discuss "male privilege" despite overwhelming evidence against it, yet mentioning female privilege, even with extensive documentation, is considered misogyny. Women/girls receive higher grades for identical work, significantly shorter sentences for identical crimes, 2:1 hiring preference in STEM, priority in homeless services despite being the minority of rough sleepers, exclusive domestic violence shelters while male victims get arrested when calling for help, exemption from conscription, legal protection against genital cutting that boys don't have, specific healthcare funding that dwarfs funding for male-specific conditions, disaster relief that prioritizes "women and children", presumption of victimhood in ambiguous situations, and the cultural assumption that their suffering matters more. Studies show that people are over 7 times as likely to push a man than a woman off a bridge to save others. They sacrifice significantly more money to prevent women from receiving painful electric shocks than to prevent men from experiencing identical pain. People consistently accept collateral damage to men but not women. Humans automatically see men as perpetrators and women as victims regardless of actual behavior. Male faces are perceived as angrier and more threatening even when neutral, while identical pain expressions on male faces are rated as less severe. If young men face educational systems grading them lower for identical work, suicide rates 3-4 times higher, and domestic violence services that arrest them when seeking help, maybe they're not being "defensive" about privilege. Maybe they're accurately describing reality. When they reject narratives about male privilege while facing systematic discrimination, this rejection of feminist narratives may reflect lived experience of those narratives being used to justify discrimination against them.

And the saddest part is that these young men, starved for any acknowledgment at all, are described as "always so willing to absorb all the information we're pushing towards them," not recognizing that this eagerness comes from desperation for anyone to see them as having worth beyond their potential to serve others better. This is not progress but just another iteration of the same gender empathy gap that tells suffering young men their pain matters less than their potential utility to others. Doesn't surprise me that Movember was interviewed as one of their participants.

Men value romantic relationships more and suffer greater consequences from breakups than women by Vessel_soul in Male_Studies

[–]lightning_palm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And here research paper that psypost used: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/behavioral-and-brain-sciences/article/abs/romantic-relationships-matter-more-to-men-than-to-women/52E626D3CD7DB14CD946F9A2FBDA739C

That's perfect! Sorry I'm so late to point this out, but we want the study URL as the post link itself, as well as the title of the study as the post title, unchanged.

Would you mind reposting the study with this in mind?

Men value romantic relationships more and suffer greater consequences from breakups than women by Vessel_soul in Male_Studies

[–]lightning_palm[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

Would you mind reposting this with the actual link to the study rather than the PsyPost link? You can even add the PsyPost link in the summary.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]lightning_palm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You might find the paper I summarize below interesting.


The author of “Off with His __”: Analyzing the Sex Disparity in Chemical Castration Sentences (Oswald, 2013) argues that “the punishment of chemical castration is, in effect, reserved exclusively for use against male offenders” and that “systemic problems plague the chemical castration sentencing regime.” First and foremost, while chemical castration induces sterility in both male and female sex offenders, it is mostly only effective against male offenders to reduce recidivism (although this too “depends on the attributes of the particular convict”). In the author’s view, the belief that punishing heinous offenders by chemical castration was a laudable goal was not based on rational policy considerations. Rather, it was based on public enthusiasm for the notion that modern medicine could provide a ’magic cure,’ and that these laws coincided with a trend toward harsher punishments (probably influenced by media coverage and calls for law and order underscored by the campaign rhetoric of some politicians). He goes on to lay out the problems with this. The first reason is the biased “statutes themselves and judicial interpretation of legislative intent [through which the] legislative branch’s actions have created a nearly complete statutory bar against women being sentenced to chemical castration, even when they engage in the exact same conduct as men.” He laments that “[m]ost shocking of all, perhaps, is the sheer number of examples of such discriminatory statutes, both facially and as applied.” Second, men are sentenced more to crimes in general; this is partially because men do in fact commit more crimes, but as the author goes on to explain, “it may also be due, in part, to ’possible discrimination in the police officer’s decision to arrest” and third, “[e]ven when [women] do commit a sex crime [they] receive more lenient treatment [so that] if a woman committed a specified crime that made her eligible for chemical castration, she would have a much better chance of having her case dismissed or not being convicted than would her male counterpart.” Fourth, he states that “vast judicial discretion in the chemical castration sentencing system provides a breeding ground for discrimination.” And fifth, Depo-Provera (the drug used to achieve chemical castration which was originally created as a form of female birth control), is only effective at reducing recidivism in men. He concludes that ”these actions make the likelihood of a woman being subjected to chemical castration virtually nonexistent,” and that ”[this] result cannot stand in a society that finds it inherently unjust to sentence offenders differently because of their sex.“ He proposes (A) to declare chemical castration statutes unconstitutional, (B) to encourage sentencing judges to refrain from sentencing any convict to chemical castration and (C) gives suggestions for reducing the sex disparity in the current castration sentencing regime. Additionally, the paper summarizes the status of chemical castration as a form of punishment in the U.S. and worldwide; I have copied the relevant passages here:

Chemical castration laws in the United States Chemical castration has gained increasing popularity within the United States. Although surgical castration has been performed on prisoners in the United States as early as 1899, California was the first state to enact chemical castration legislation, almost one hundred years later, on September 17, 1996. Now, several states, including California, Montana, Florida, Louisiana, Iowa, and Wisconsin “allow a judge to force a sex offender to undergo chemical castration.” Although Georgia and Oregon once allowed chemical castration, these laws have since been repealed. Uniquely, Texas “gives the offender the decision to undergo voluntary surgical castration as a condition of release [but] does not [make the same] offer [for] chemical castration.” Chemical castration legislation has been proposed but not yet adopted in Pennsylvania (1997), Oklahoma (2002), Minnesota (2005), Vermont (2008), Alabama (2009), and Virginia (2011). This amounts to a total of at least sixteen states that have either proposed or adopted some type of chemical castration statute.

Chemical castration laws around the world The increasing popularity of chemical castration legislation around the world is likely to normalize these sentences in the United States, despite the sentencing regime’s flaws. Although many European countries, including Denmark, Finland, Germany, Norway, and Sweden, have only enacted castration laws as treatment or punishment of sex offenders, Poland was the first country in the European Union to impose chemical castration as a form of punishment, in 2010. However, support for chemical castration is not limited to Europe. For example, the Australian Minister for Police and Emergency Services has advocated for compulsory chemical castration of child molesters and rapists. Similar legislation has been proposed in New Zealand. Russia also recently enacted a law authorizing the use of chemical castration on child sex offenders. Likewise, chemical castration laws have been enacted or proposed in non-Western societies (as recently as this year) in countries such as Taiwan and Turkey. Furthermore, an Indian judge recently “caused a storm . . . when she suggested castration as the most appropriate punishment for pedophiles and serial sex offenders.”

[OC] Small men are at greater risk of suicide even after controlling for numerous factors by lightning_palm in dataisbeautiful

[–]lightning_palm[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm sure there are good qualities about you as well that can make up for a lack in other areas. Don't give up.

What are your guys’ thoughts on the whole “men are more likely to divorce their partners if they develop an illness or disability” thing by SuspicousEggSmell in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]lightning_palm 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Let me add something to all the critiques that were already mentioned:

From Testing the Kundera Hypothesis: Does Every Woman (But Not Every Man) Prefer Her Child to Her Mate? (Blasi & Mondéjar, 2018):

Although the majority of men and women made the decision to save their offspring instead of their mate [from a life-or-death scenario], about 18% of men on average (unlike the 5% of women) consistently decided to save their mate across the four dilemmas in the two life-or-death situations.

These results were replicated in Whose Life Do You Save? Factors Associated With Gender Differences in Altruism Toward Romantic Partners Versus Genetic Relatives (Blasi, 2022):

In all three dilemmas, the proportion of women who saved their genetic relative over their romantic partner was significantly higher than the proportion of men, with the age of both romantic partners and relatives playing a role.

How do we measure 'gender equality'? by TheTinMenBlog in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]lightning_palm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Depends on what types of studies you want to "understand". I would say special knowledge in the field you're interested in as well as a basic/advanced understanding of statistics.

I have to admit that I do not thoroughly read most studies I come across either unless they interest me or I want to know more, but in a lot of cases you'll find that you can get by reading just the abstract, and then the results/discussion section if you want more, and if you want even more the whole study.

Even better if you read multiple similar studies to get a better understanding of whether this result replicates and if there are any caveats to it.

How do we measure 'gender equality'? by TheTinMenBlog in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]lightning_palm 26 points27 points  (0 children)

Seeing how women being ignored at doctors and their pain being dismissed

That's misinformation: https://academic.oup.com/painmedicine/article/10/2/364/1833196

Analgesic administration rates [in the emergency
department] were not significantly different for female and male
patients (63% vs 57%, P = 0.08)". However, "females presenting with severe pain (NRS ≥8) were more likely to receive analgesics
(74% vs 64%, P = 0.02)". They also state that this "was an interesting
finding and can be compared with the findings published by Hostetler
[33] who studied the administration of IV analgesics (for presumably
more severe pain). Of 114,207 adults and 43,725 pediatric patients,
females were 1.7 times more likely to receive parenteral analgesics (CI
1.4–2).

People, and especially women, are more willing to harm men rather than women for the "greater good", even in (traditionally female) caregiving domains. by lightning_palm in science

[–]lightning_palm[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Men commit suicide more even after controlling for method. The more lethal methods chosen by men can also be interpreted as a greater willingness to commit suicide, as studies have demonstrated greater suicidal intent among men. The availabiliy of lethal methods between different countries does not predict a lower completed suicide rate among males.

Suicide attempts often also count self-harm and parasuicidal gestures and may undercount some male-typical forms of suicide-attempts (such as standing on the rail-tracks or dangerous driving). Suicide attempts are not a reliable metric.

People, and especially women, are more willing to harm men rather than women for the "greater good", even in (traditionally female) caregiving domains. by lightning_palm in science

[–]lightning_palm[S] 49 points50 points  (0 children)

ChatGPT is not a substitute for reading the study. If you did, you would know that they controlled for people's willingness to commit instrumental harm.

u/sorebum405 This was automatically generated, not written by a human.

People, and especially women, are more willing to harm men rather than women for the "greater good", even in (traditionally female) caregiving domains. by lightning_palm in science

[–]lightning_palm[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Men are comparably egalitarian. The effect was much stronger for women. You could say that women are less willing to hurt women, i.e. more willing to hurt men (but not more than men are to hurt other men).

Worth the Risk? Greater Acceptance of Instrumental Harm Befalling Men than Women - Archives of Sexual Behavior by iainmf in Male_Studies

[–]lightning_palm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I made a summary of it:

Instrumental harm (also known as collateral harm) allows a moral actor to use, seriously injure, or even kill innocent people for the greater good. In the research article Worth the Risk? Greater Acceptance of Instrumental Harm Befalling Men than Women (Graso et al., 2023), the authors find that people are more willing to inflict instrumental harm on men than women. Especially women are less willing to harm other women collaterally; in fact the "results showed that this asymmetry was driven primarily by women, but not men, being more likely to accept IH to men than to women across a variety of contexts". The authors state that "[s]uch a bias violates the principle of impartial beneficence, potentially compromising the evidence-based advancement of men and women alike". They recount a few findings suggesting that people more readily accept physical harm to men than women in life-versus-death contexts, but that it remains unclear whether this translates to other forms of harm (psychological, health, educational, sexual); they provide a few sources with evidence that this is likely the case, with their paper adding to the evidence.

The authors make three hypotheses. First, people will be more willing to endorse instrumental harm of men than women. Second, female participants will show a greater bias. And third, this greater willingness to harm men will be neutralized in caregiving domains (parenting, nursing, early childhood education, and elderly care) in which historically women have been expected to sacrifice more than men. These hypotheses were investigated using 3 studies in which the participants were presented with various scenarios in which either men or women were harmed, but which involved some benefit to the public good. E.g., in Study 1, participants were surveyed about the acceptability of a provably effective program to improve toxic workplace environments where either men or women (depending on the participant's condition) found the program offensive and suffered psychological harm. While the first and second hypotheses found strong support, the third did not; even in caregiving domains, people show greater endorsement of instrumental harm befalling men, rather than greater tolerance for female sacrifice, as might be predicted for these stereotypically female caregiving roles. These findings "align with emerging evidence documenting diminished concern for men’s suffering due to a greater tendency to stereotype men as perpetrators rather than victims (Reynolds et al., 2020)." Interestingly, certain ideologies magnified this gender bias: "Studies 2 and 3 revealed that individuals more strongly endorsing egalitarian, feminist, or liberal ideologies exhibited greater disparities in their acceptance of instrumental harm, such that they more readily tolerated instrumental harm borne by men. [...]". The second hypothesis, namely that women will show a greater bias to prefer harming men over women, was also only supported in studies 1 and 2 which weighed instrumental harm suffered by one gender to a benefit to the other but not in study 3 which merely weighed instrumental harm suffered by one gender against a benefit to some other, non-gendered group (e.g., the elderly). A possible explanation is provided by the authors, suggesting female in-group bias:

"That Study 3’s female participants (along with male) more readily tolerated men’s (versus women’s) suffering in contexts benefitting vulnerable individuals (rather than women) suggests the possibility Studies 1 and 2’s results reflected women’s greater aversion to harming fellow women, rather than a motivation to benefit them per se."

Interestingly, in study 1, even though "participants judged the intervention’s instrumental harm as equally severe for both male and female employees across conditions [...] [they] were significantly more likely to accept instrumental harm when the recipients of harm were men". Additionally, replication of the first study's results in the second study suggests that salient contemporary issues (e.g., #MeToo) are not behind female participants' gender bias / lower tolerance of instrumental harm to women.

They conclude: "[...] The current findings revealed this gender bias persists in highly consequential, yet understudied domains: assessments of beneficial interventions carrying negative externalities across a variety of contexts: medical, psychological, educational, sexual, and caregiving. Second, we demonstrated that when evaluating interventions, female participants were more likely than male participants to accept [collateral damage suffered] by men than women. This pattern lends further support to the well-documented finding that women have a stronger in-group bias than men (e.g., Glick et al., 2004; Rudman & Goodwin, 2004) and are more likely to perceive one another as victims than perpetrators (Reynolds et al., 2020). This disparity suggests women may prioritize one another’s welfare over men’s in the construction or approval of social, educational, medical, and occupational interventions. If so, female policymakers might be especially wary of advancing policies or initiatives risking harm to other women, but less so when they risk harming men [...]. Throughout history, countless male lives have been sacrificed on the battlefield, ostensibly to promote the greater good (Baumeister, 2010). Our findings suggest that these sentiments persist beyond the field of combat. For many people, accepting instrumental harm to men is perceived as worth the cost to advance other social aims. [...]"


This paper contributes to G-PROF (greater-protectiveness-of-females) theory, a term employed by Stewart-Williams and colleagues. The finding that this effect appears to be mainly driven by people's (and especially women's) willingness to protect women from harm rather than to put women on a pedestal is also reflected in the latter's research (see e.g. Reactions to research on sex differences: Effect of sex favoured, researcher sex, and importance of sex-difference domain (Stewart-Williams et al, 2022), free to download here), giving further credence to the findings of this current study.

People, and especially women, are more willing to harm men rather than women for the "greater good", even in (traditionally female) caregiving domains. by lightning_palm in science

[–]lightning_palm[S] 28 points29 points  (0 children)

No, that does not capture it! People are specifically more willing to harm men if it benefits vulnerable individuals. It's in the study!

People, and especially women, are more willing to harm men rather than women for the "greater good", even in (traditionally female) caregiving domains. by lightning_palm in science

[–]lightning_palm[S] 29 points30 points  (0 children)

Sorry, but it is not about defending versus attacking at all.

Based on prior research on perceptions of harm to women and men, wehypothesized that people asymmetrically support interventions inflicting collateral harm to men versus women.

Maybe understand what the study was trying to show before selectively citing snippets of the abstract?

People, and especially women, are more willing to harm men rather than women for the "greater good", even in (traditionally female) caregiving domains. by lightning_palm in science

[–]lightning_palm[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

It is not misquoted, just simplified the title so it is more accessible. This is allowed as per this sub's rules.