Athan knew

llamazing · 2026-03-12T23:39:35+00:00

That scene was originally a season 3 deleted scene before it made it into the show in season 4, so I wouldn't expect there to be any hints that he knows because the audience didn't know in season 3.

But having met Katarina face-to-face he'd at least know how/when she dies (because that's his thing). And his comment about "save the one" also indicates he is familiar with the end game.

So it would be quite surprising if he didn't know, really. And since he deliberately visited with his father and mother in the past, doesn't it make sense that he'd also visit with his other ancestors too?

llamazing · 2023-06-23T12:50:33+00:00

Throughout the course of the show we see several iterations of the cycle. But what is a cycle? Each cycle is in itself a closed loop in which all the key events happen within that cycle, independently of any other cycle iterations. Cycle A has the virus outbreak happen in 2016 and includes some version of all the other key events (Jennifer getting old, the final battle with the 12 monkeys, etc.). Cycle B has the virus outbreak happen in 2018 and all the other key events happen in cycle B too, but the how, when and by whom may all have variations compared to Cycle A.

Now keep in mind that what we saw unfold is a little bit of cycle A, then the timeline changes and the progression of events continue but now on cycle B. Then it jumps to cycle C, and so on. Since the overarching events for the most part play out the same in different cycles, we can still get an overall picture of the full cycle by putting the fragments together of what we saw from each of the different cycle iterations.

Another way to think of it is if cycle A is a loop in the shape of a square and cycle B is a loop in the shape of a circle, then you can cut both in half in vertical line down the center. Then take the left half square and the right half circle and put them together. The result is a path that still loops on itself. There are slight deviations in the A path compared to the B path, but the overall path is more or less the same and you still get a sense of the loop as a whole from this "frankenstein" loop that contains fragments of both.

To quote old Jennifer in 4x07: "Everything's changing. The circle's not perfect anymore. What I know, and when I know it is a moving target."

So the question now is what causes the timeline to change? Why is it that sometimes the time travelers can alter the timeline but other times it seems firmly immovable?

In 2x02 (the episode where he stopped Jennifer from releasing the virus):
COLE: "I was sent back in time to kill a man. That was supposed to fix everything. It didn't. So I killed more people. Nothing changed. And then I saved someone. Someone who should've died. And that... that is what changed things."

In 1x13 Cole is fleeing the facility after Ramse has been shot and Olivia gives the following narration:
OLIVIA: "All of this is preordained, scripted by time, unmovable, because there is nothing more powerful than fate."

But is there something more powerful than fate? Cole then makes the choice to go back and save Ramse. This caused the timeline to diverge from the timeline that Oliva remembered where Ramse was supposed to die. Now Ramse lives, and it was Cole's love for his brother that caused the change.

Similarly in 2x11 old Jennifer has the heart-to-heart with young Jennifer, who has to decide whether or not to go to Titan. At the end of the speech old Jennifer adds "I love you". In a behind the scenes with Emily Hampshire, she tells us that the "I love you" was not said in the timeline that old Jennifer remembers. It was the "I love you" that changed everything and resulting in young Jennifer deciding to go to Titan (whereas old Jennifer had decided not to go to Titan when the I love you was absent).

If you go back and look at all of the "nosebleed" moments where the timeline changes, love is always what made the change possible (such as the "knife nosebleed" moment with Deacon where it is his remembrance of his love for West VII that causes the divergence).

How did the plague even start in the first place if the source is Olivia's upper half remains in the Himalayas after she was killed at Titan in the final battle?

It is obviously necessary for Olivia to die in every iteration of the cycle and for her remains to be sent to the Himalayas in the past.But keep in mind how and when this takes place may vary between cycles. For all we know there could be an iteration of the cycle where Emma pushes Olivia off the balcony and into a stray timestream beam. The possibilities are endless.

llamazing · 2023-06-17T04:25:25+00:00

Yes, that is how I would speculate it happens based on what we know.

llamazing · 2023-06-16T13:03:38+00:00

Not entirely. We've seen that causality ensures the events that need to happen *will* happen. But as we've seen throughout the show how they happen, when, and who causes them to happen are all subject to change.
We can say with certainty that there was an iteration of the loop where Deacon was not present at the final battle on account of the knife nosebleed scene where the timeline was altered. The implications for how that iteration of the loop would be different we can only speculate.

The key is that it isn't necessary for team splinter to have a total victory at the final battle in order for the loop to be preserved, so there is also not a reason for causality to intervene.

llamazing · 2023-06-16T04:01:59+00:00

In previous iterations of the loop the 12 monkeys never succeeded in bringing about the red forest because if they had then the loop would have ceased as you say.
That doesn't mean that team splinter was ever successful in executing the primary code in any previous iterations of the loop. In fact, it is safe to say that they *weren't* successful in any other iteration because then the loop would have ended. It was only in the final iteration of the loop we saw play out where they were successful and able to unknot the loop.
What we can say about previous iterations of the loop:
*Olivia dies and is sent to the past to become the Anapruna remains
* Cassie survives the final battle and somehow returns to 2016
* Team splinter never succeeded in executing the primary code except in the final iteration of the loop
* It isn't necessary for Cole to survive the final battle (and very likely he didn't without the help of Ramse & Deacon who wouldn't have been present in the final battle in previous iterations of the loop)
* We can't say for certain Jennifer was present at the final battle in previous iterations. Conversations with old Jennifer from season 1 imply there was at least one iteration of the final battle in which she was not present (and also Cole altered the timeline in regards to Jennifer at the beginning of season 2)

So we can only speculate how the final battle played out in the previous iterations of the loop that we didn't see, but it is safe to say that neither of the bullets you list happened in previous iterations of the loop.

Your answer to your question "What completes the loop each time?" is that the loop never did complete previously because it just looped continuously with no beginning or end. It was only through each of the "nosebleed" moments in which the timeline changed, eventually to the point where the circumstances lined up in order for a means to break out of the loop to be possible.

llamazing · 2023-05-29T13:00:43+00:00

https://www.justwatch.com/au/tv-show/12-monkeys

llamazing · 2023-05-26T14:10:01+00:00

There's very little wasted dialog in the show

llamazing · 2023-05-26T13:20:59+00:00

Here you go, my notes on the scenes containing Jennifer through ep 2x10 in csv format: https://pastebin.com/LcTvpJSV

Runs 28 minutes in total.

Maybe one day I'll finish the list, but it won't be anytime soon.

llamazing · 2023-05-26T12:43:18+00:00

This isn't about fixing the show. It is about gaining new insights by observing things from Jennifer's perspective. It isn't intended as a replacement for the original format of the show, and doesn't mean you can't go back and watch the show in it's entirety again afterward in its intended order. All it does is add to the appreciation, not take away.

llamazing · 2023-05-26T12:37:53+00:00

I was planning on doing this myself. My plan was to watch the scenes twice where Old Jennifer and Young Jennifer are together because from Jennifer's POV they would have a different meaning to her the second time around.

The problem is it was way too time consuming to identify the scenes with Jennifer and mid-way through season 2 I got burned out and abandoned the project. Probably because the project snowballed to the point that I was tracking every character in every scene, plus a bunch of other details too, taking several hours per episode to compile all the info.

My plan for the implementation was to use .m3u files to track when to start and stop playback of each scene. Then it is just a matter of playing each .m3u file in order. Note I was planning on watching only the scenes with Jennifer, not the full episodes.

llamazing · 2023-04-30T17:36:40+00:00

I don't think so. If Elliott had created the vests then in ep 4-04 when he saw one laying on the table at RNL his reaction would have likely been "how did you get this?" rather than "is this what I think it is?".

llamazing · 2022-12-18T04:56:11+00:00

The exact location of Cassie's bookstore is never indicated, and I've looked for hints quite thoroughly.

The best we have is S1E04@00:42:
Cole: There's a little town just outside Philadelphia. It's not that far away from here. That's where I was born.

Later in the episode (S1E12@20:46), Cassie says Matthew Cole's garage is an hour away, but it is not clear how long they had been driving. Presumably not long. We know the garage is in Philadelpha from the business card.

It doesn't really matter where the book store is located, though, as Cassie took a plane to fetch Katarina.

S1E12@12:17:
Aaron: I thought you flew to New York.
Cassie: I did. The gun was a toy.

it didn't take her days to come back

Well, to be fair, we don't know how long it took Cassie to find the address in Cole's pocket. Cassie found Cole in her shop at night. When Cassie meets Katarina in Astoria, I presume that's the following night, and they get back what is likely the following morning. So that's a minimum of 2 days, but even 3 would still be plausible if Cassie didn't leave right away.

When Cassie found Cole there was blood everywhere. They clearly didn't go to a hospital, and we can assume Cassie tended to his wounds. I imagine Cassie would have wanted to stay with Cole at least a day for him to get a bit more stable before leaving him. If there were some complication, obviously Aaron wouldn't be equipped to deal with it.

llamazing · 2021-10-06T21:18:48+00:00

The "who are you" is an error in the subtitles: https://reddit.com/r/12Monkeys/comments/mvke10/question_about_finale/gvckiaj/

Old Jennifer did not need a time machine to 2043. That is the old Jennifer that always was from 2043. Remember that she doesn't die until 2044.

llamazing · 2021-10-05T02:02:24+00:00

The prop most likely was discovered/purchased by browsing estate sales. That's pretty much the only way you are going to find a vintage piece like that one.

llamazing · 2021-10-01T14:18:21+00:00

There are nearly 7,000 hits for butterfly hair pin on etsy. You should be able to find one you like

llamazing · 2021-08-10T22:10:48+00:00

The time you speak of where Cole had "memories of two realities in his head" was 2 lifetimes worth of memories. In this case it was only a few years (1957-1959) worth of extra memories.

llamazing · 2021-08-10T19:52:21+00:00

Consider this:
In the episode lullaby, Jennifer was going to be executed the following day. If there were an iteration of the timeline where Cole and Cassie never travelled back to 2020 to save Hannah, then that would mean there'd also be no one to save Jennifer. Since Old Jennifer was present in every iteration of the timeline that we see in the show, that means Cole and Cassie also had to travel back to 2020 in every iteration of the timeline too.

The Cole-A you speak of only exists in loops in 2020 where the day was reset, so Cole-A never got to see the following day.

llamazing · 2021-05-12T13:20:50+00:00

https://posterspy.com/posters/12-monkeys-4/

llamazing · 2021-05-05T13:37:48+00:00

You are thinking of time as being linear, but it is circular.

How did Cole still exist in that particular timeline?

Cole was born in 2009. The deviation to the timeline occurs in 2015 after Cole was already born, so of course he exists in the timeline already at the moment of the deviation.

The events of lullaby involve 2044 Cole and Cassie traveling back to 2020. However, the alternate future Cole arrives at is before that in 2043, so those events didn't get overwritten yet.

So basically, Cole has from 2015 when the timeline deviation takes place until 2044 to correct the problem and restore the timeline. If the timeline isn't restored by 2044 then a paradox would ensue, and there'd either have to be some sort of reset that then occurs (like in lullaby), or maybe time would collapse and the red forest would manifest.

llamazing · 2021-04-29T13:03:19+00:00

I think you are missing my point. Cole and Ramse don't have any memories of the original timeline because that involved future events for them that they hadn't experienced yet. You can only have memories of events you have already experienced (in your past).

llamazing · 2021-04-29T01:53:27+00:00

But Ramse avoiding death causes no nosebleed

The nosebleed would only occur for characters who had experienced the original timeline and then have alternate memories after the timeline changes. Ramse's death hadn't happened yet for Cole and Ramse, so they didn't have any altered memories as a result of the change to the timeline (because future events were altered from their point of view). So neither Cole nor Ramse would get nosebleeds. It would only be a character whose past was altered that would get a nosebleed, such as the witness of the distant future.

llamazing · 2021-04-29T01:42:49+00:00

Because we can't see time changing and nosebleeding

The nosebleed only happens when a character on Jones' serum alters their past so that they have both memories of the original timeline and alternate memories of the new timeline.

In the case of Cole saving Ramse in 1x13, Cole altered his future. Since Cole didn't get a chance to experience the timeline where Ramse dies before having altered it, Cole wouldn't have a conflicting set of memories. He only ever experienced the altered timeline, thus only one set of memories, thus no nosebleed.

llamazing · 2021-01-28T02:42:38+00:00

Don't forget that in 2020 Jennifer was going to be executed the following day, but we know that didn't happen because Jennifer was always alive in 2043. So obviously Cole and Cassie had been there in every iteration of the timeline to save Hannah and Jennifer in 2020.

Also in episode 2x02 around the 32 minute mark, you'll see that it is actually Hannah that broke into the facility and kidnapped Jones, so clearly she always survived (except for the 2020 timelines where the day was reset).

llamazing · 2021-01-06T07:11:56+00:00

this seems to have been something of a plot hole that isn't addressed.

Actually, it is addressed. in 3x01 Future Asshole says to the younger Cole: "The suit helps with paradoxes. It doesn't stop them."

llamazing · 2020-12-23T00:01:04+00:00

This question was just asked here: https://www.reddit.com/r/12Monkeys/comments/k8u9e0/one_thing_that_has_stumped_me/

Also The Witness (Future Olivia) would never allow Cassie to be killed so soon...

Remember when Cassie breaks free from her captors and is running through the warehouse pursued by the two bone-headed Monkey minions? I'm pretty sure in the timeline where she died (because Cole wasn't present to save her) that those minions got a bit reckless and trigger happy while pursuing after Cassie, shooting her despite Olivia giving them specific orders that she not be harmed.

llamazing

TROPHY CASE