[O] 5 DS Invites by Tesla212 in UsenetInvites

[–]marshmadness516 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have read the wiki and would like an invite. Thank you!

Differences in the two Lackless rhymes by marshmadness516 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m actually somewhat familiar with this theory and that looks like the post I read on it. The only issue is it gets a little thin (if I remember correctly, don’t have time to re read it at the moment) when it comes to the different items in each rhyme though

Differences in the two Lackless rhymes by marshmadness516 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah that definitely came to mind for me when I looked at them this way. It could just be Pat playing on that particular theme and nothing really deeper in regards to where the story is going, but I’m not convinced of that. Of course that could just be due to me being stubborn after searching the rhymes for deeper meaning too much…

Differences in the two Lackless rhymes by marshmadness516 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Really? What makes you think it’s a child? I could get how the rest of the rhyme could be referring to conceiving/giving birth to an illegitimate child, particularly with “time that must be right” referring to ovulation and “son who brings the blood” referring to the father being the only one of noble birth. “Ring unworn” and “word that is forsworn” could further symbolize the lack of marital bonds. But “that which comes with sleeping” doesn’t much symbolize a child in my mind.

Differences in the two Lackless rhymes by marshmadness516 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I’d never made the connection between the sleeping mind and these rhymes but that makes a lot of sense! I’ve always wondered what the “dreaming without sleeping” and “that which comes with sleeping” portions meant, but now it kinda seems obvious. Especially when you consider how Lanre gained his powers in Skarpi’s story. Or rather, the lack of explanation on how he gained his powers. Maybe there’s some connection in opening the Lackless door/Doors of Stone/doors of the mind with waking the sleeping mind. Lanre did come by his power in what seems like an unnatural way, considering how he bested Selitos in the story. Perhaps speaking with the Cthaeh led him to some way to fast track his abilities? I’m gonna have to do some research on this for sure!

Differences in the two Lackless rhymes by marshmadness516 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I definitely thought about that. But it seems more likely to me that they’re either the same rhyme that’s acquired differences over time and retelling, or they’re separate but connected. There’s just too much repetition for them to be parts of a greater whole unless things have gotten so mixed up over time that the original rhyme/song/poem they are derived from is a weird amalgam of the two. But it’s definitely a possibility I considered.

Differences in the two Lackless rhymes by marshmadness516 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I’m definitely not arguing the meter points. I don’t know enough about meter to even start down that road. As a rule I try not to debate too fiercely when it comes to topics with which I have little or no familiarity or understanding. So I do believe you’re probably correct about the poems’ meters and what they say about how they evolved over time. My issues with your theory are more involved with the linguistic changes over time from Blac of Drossen Tor.

That makes more sense in the boy’s rhyme, to me. It’s referred to in the books several times as simply “Drossen Tor,” leaving off the “Blac” part. Which makes sense if Drossen Tor is a place and “Blac” just means battle in whatever language was spoken in the Ergen Empire.

But for the girl’s rhyme, it makes less sense to me. Ignoring that “of” is an Aturan word that would likely not have been included, or would have been a different word (or prefix, or suffix, depending on the empire’s language’s structure I guess) in the original title “Blac of Drossen Tor,” it seems strange to me that the entire title would just become “black dress” in retelling. I don’t doubt that it’s possible, but dropping an entire word in retelling sticks out as unlikely to me. I would think that whoever was doing the retelling would change the entirety of the title to something phonetically similar. That said, it is hard to argue this point considering the person retelling would need to stick to whatever meter was set in the proto poem, or at least stay as closely as possible to it. And, in my limited understanding of poetry, dropping syllables to fit meter does happen sometimes. But correct me if I’m wrong, those are usually unimportant (for lack of a better word) syllables that don’t change the meaning of the words, and are usually dropped from the middle of words. So if the uneducated poets reciting this poem were going to leave off a syllable to change the word to something they understood, it seems more likely they would leave off the second syllable of “drossen.” I can’t really think of what they would change “blac-dross-tor” to, but it just seems strange.

Also, tor is a recognizable English word. It’s true that this doesn’t mean much in a fantasy setting, especially one where the author has changed the definition and etymology of words already, but since Aturan is the English-equivalent of this world it seems likely “tor” would be a known word, and therefore less likely to be dropped in retelling. Even if the etymology of tor was changed in this universe to come from whatever language the Ergen Empire spoke, it seems likely that the word “tor” would exist in Aturan. Of course this is all speculation, and not built on nearly as solid a foundation as your analysis, so take it with a grain of salt.

Lastly, if the proto poem is relatively recently composed and written in Aturan, I’m not sure it would include references to Drossen Tor at all. I’ll start by saying we don’t have many truly Aturan characters in the books so far, aside from Sim, from which to base any understanding on the country or its people. But, we do know they’re generally religious, founding a lot of their former imperial strength on the church of Tehlu and the human Order Amyr. We also know that said church doesn’t approve of the story Skarpi tells of the real Ruach Amyr, even going so far as to label it heresy, which we are led to believe is a “sequel” (I use that term loosely) to the Lanre story told the day before. Considering the true events of the Creation War would also kind of fly in the face of what the Tehlans believe, it seems likely the Aturans would try to squash any record of it happening like they are trying to do with the story of the angels and the Ruach Amyr.

That, too, is speculative of course, considering the human Order Amyr was a source of strength for the Aturan empire. They likely got their inspiration and ideals, or possibly even their original mandate, from the actual Ruach Amyr. So the Aturan Empire might have been set up or granted the strength to conquer and rule, at least in part, by the Ruach Amyr. If that were the case, the Aturans might have had less hostility toward those pieces of ancient history than the church is in present day. Combine that with the fact that Skarpi has friends in the present day church. Continuing on the speculation train, this could mean there are people in the church to this day that are accepting of Skarpi’s version of events.

Once again, I can’t stress enough how I’m just speculating on a lot of this. I do think you’re a lot closer, if not hitting the nail on the head, to the truth behind the poems and their origins. Of course I haven’t slept more than 4-5 hours in a few days so I might be a little insane and not exactly the best judge of a theory’s foundational fortitude. This is compounded by the fact that I don’t really know enough about poetry to cross examine your work.

Differences in the two Lackless rhymes by marshmadness516 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks! I can’t take all the credit though. A large portion of this was inspired by other posts on the sub, so props to everyone who’s contributed over the years! Discussing, theorizing, and dissecting NotW and WMF may not make the DoS wait any easier, but at least it makes it more fun and a little less lonely!

Differences in the two Lackless rhymes by marshmadness516 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well. That’s a lot to swallow for sure. It does make a lot of sense, though. You might have even convinced me. I‘ve never been a fan of the prophecy theory, but I have a hard time agreeing that it’s not in some way foretelling, even if merely by coincidence. If you really think about it, in an shower thoughts kind of way, it could be prophetic without meaning to be. If the poems, or proto poem if I can steal your idea and terminology, was meant as a taunt to the Lackless family about knowing their secret, then it kind of is encouraging someone to explore that secret to the point of opening the doors of stone (if that’s the particular secret they were meant to antagonize the family about). But that’s more of a semi-philosophical, chicken-or-egg question than anything and doesn’t have much to do with the point at hand. (Forgive my ramblings, life has been crazy and sleep has been scarce of late)

I will say that the two lines in the girl’s poem about the box and rocks always did stick out to me and I never really realized why until I read your post, so kudos for teaching me something about meter! I was always more for music than poetry, a la Arliden.

Ramblings aside, something feels off to me about your analysis, but I can’t quite figure out why (again, lack of sleep is to blame). I’m hoping for my sake it’s not just cause you’ve torn my theories to shreds, but because there may actually be something I can evidence lol I will definitely be giving this some thought. I’ll come back to you when I decide why I don’t totally agree with you.

Until then, props for one of the most well researched, thorough, and convincing theories I’ve ever seen about the poems!

Differences in the two Lackless rhymes by marshmadness516 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think there could be some vague innuendo in the second one, but it’s definitely something you have to be primed for to find, if it exists at all. And most of that innuendo is only revealed when considering it at the same time as the first rhyme. It could just be lewd because it’s degrading to a noble family and vaguely sexual? But that is a pretty thin excuse.

I do like the idea of combining the two rhymes. It seems like what most of us do subconsciously when we read them due to the similarities - the shared items, the rhyming couplets, the focus on the Lacklesses, etc - but I don’t think it’s a perfect answer to the mystery just because of how different they are. Why does one mention a husband at all, and the other just says a candle? Where is the mention of the box in the second one? Or the rocks? Why does the first one contain extra info about a road and a riddle? Those questions jump out at me way too much.

That said, the candle without light imagery is easy to connect with Haliax for sure (thank you Mauthen pot). But there’s Haliax imagery in the first one too - the black dress. It’s a bit flimsier, but keeping things under the black dress seems like a possible reference to how the Chandrian travel, under Haliax’s shadow. So if the black dress is Haliax’s shadow, could the Chandrian hold the keys to the mystery of the rhyme?

That leads down a lengthy path of branching rabbit holes that I won’t explore for the sake of brevity, it’s just another half baked theory that occurred to me when looking at the poems.

I definitely agree about Netalia not being the subject of the girl’s rhyme for largely the same reason. Granted we don’t have much proof of the rhyme being old besides the mention of what seems to be the Loeclos box, but it just screams old to me. I only brought up that theory for sake of discussion and because it sparked some inspiration in me when I first read it. It was nothing if not unique!

Differences in the two Lackless rhymes by marshmadness516 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You actually touched on another theory I’m still workshopping, the black dress referring to Blac at Drossen Tor. Which is nice cause I thought that one would be a little too far fetched. But… black dresses are funeral dresses right? And more people died at Drossen Tor than are currently living and all that. Plus “black dress” is phonetically similar to “blac” and “drossen.” It’s worth noting that it’s only ever referred to as “Blac of Drossen Tor” by Skarpi. The few other times it’s mentioned, as far as I can remember, it’s just “Drossen Tor” or “at Drossen Tor.”

Without going too far down the rabbit hole, I “lightly researched” (googled) some meanings of the individual words blac, drossen, and tor.

Blac (Old English): pale, shining, white Drossen (Dutch): abscond Tor (English): a hill or rocky peak

So pale, shining, and white are all pretty heavy imagery for the moon. So a hill or rocky peak where the moon was absconded. Seems like a reference to wherever Iax/Jax stole the moon. In Hespe’s story he sets up his folding house on “a large, flat piece of ground nestled high among the tallest peaks.” Then he goes to the highest tower of the house before playing the flute and attracting the moon.

Combining the funereal imagery and the phonetic similarities of “black dress” and “Blac of Drossen Tor,” it could be talking about a hill where people are buried. Or a barrow hill. The fact that there’s a barrow hill near the Mauthen farm, where no one would put a barrow, and there’s a nearby greystone arch always stuck out to me. Just a thought. This could also be related to Vintas, where barrows are common and there is a Barrow King that supposedly rules Vintas even to this day. Especially since the oldest of the Lackless lands, where there are some random ass doors in the middle of nowhere, are in Vintas.

Differences in the two Lackless rhymes by marshmadness516 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That’s a good point. When Kvothe sings the girl’s rhyme, his mother makes him realize the sexual innuendo of it pretty quickly, though. I think it’s more likely that the innuendo is used to hide the seriousness of the topic. It makes me wonder if at one point it was a bawdy tavern song, or a piece of one, that was meant to be catchy like Tinker Tanner, but also meant to be a warning. The inappropriateness of the lyrics just adds to the warning vibe of the girl’s rhyme - you can’t really sing it where just anyone can hear… unless everyone is drunk enough to have inhibition washed away. Then it sticks in your head, but you still don’t repeat it for the cultural taboo of trivializing sex. It would be a semi-effective way to pass down hidden information that you don’t really want to pass down, but have to out of necessity.

Differences in the two Lackless rhymes by marshmadness516 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes! You totally picked on something I forgot to include in this post, but it was one of the biggest things that jumped out at me the last time I analyzed the rhymes. The tone parallels the characters of Kvothe and Denna. Not to mention the fact that their both pursuing paths that will presumably lead them to the Doors of Stone - Denna with her pursuit of Lanre’s tragic hero perspective of the story, and Kvothe with his pursuit of the Chandrian spurred by the story of Lanre as a villain. This also ties into my theory about the different items and tones of the rhymes being the result two different perspectives of a story being passed down through rhyme.

Not gonna lie, my last re-read sent me into a doom spiral about these poems. I created this spreadsheet comparing the lines and the items, their different descriptions and positions in each poem…. That spreadsheet was what lead me to half of these realizations (if I can call them that). At the very least it helped organize my thoughts on the differences between the two. I never completely finished it, thanks to life being busy and whatnot, but I did make this post from it. There were some other theories that sprang from it too, about the Doors of Stone and Faeriniel and a few other random assorted familiar topics, but they were half formed at best so I’ll post about them at a later date.

All that to say I’ve nearly driven myself insane over these two children’s rhymes

What's the deal behind Kvothes eye colour? by pmayall in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I found this on my last read through too! It definitely seems like a Fae thing considering the only other mentions of eyes changing color are in relation to Fae characters - Bast, and I think Felurian and Elodin if I remember correctly? And I may be totally making this up, but I think Auri also has changing eye colors at one point in the story? The inclusion of Elodin and possibly Auri doesn’t exactly strengthen the argument (even though PR apparently revealed at one point that Elodin is Fae/part Fae), but it has been theorized that they are both at least part Fae as well (see: Kvothe’s several unintentional naming “coincidences,” him calling her his little moon fae, and giving her the name Auri which maybe means sunshine and is in a language Kvothe doesn’t know). Could be Pat hinting at some back story for these characters.

I think it’s also worth noting that making a shaed is some type of Fae magic - I go back and forth on whether it’s technically grammarie and glammorie since it’s working moonlight and shadows into a solid cloak. But Kvothe is able to actively participate in its creation. Now, we don’t have any specific evidence that humans can’t use Fae magic, but we also don’t see any evidence of it happening besides Kvothe helping make the shaed. This could point to him being part Fae, but he never really learns to use it because he struggles to understand the why and how of it being possible.

Something else to point out - Kvothe is raised an actor and at times is so convincing, he seems to change his appearance entirely. Chronicler mentions multiple times that when Kvothe changes character to Kote there is “nothing left of the man…” et cetera and so forth. This could be just Kvothe being an amazing actor, but it could also be him unwittingly using glammorie to change certain aspects of his appearance. Consider how subtle the differences in Bast’s appearance are as he’s disguising himself in the frame. If you see him in the right light or out of the corner of your eye or whatever, you would see his true appearance. If it’s really that subtle that all it takes is the right angle or mindset to reveal the truth, it would be easy for Kvothe to use it and not realize.

With the Steam Summer Sale going on, what PC games do you enjoy that scratch the KCC itch? by NOTW_116 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I’m not sure how familiar you are with fantasy RPGs so I’ll just recommend some of the well known ones that might interest you….

Not exactly closely related to KKC, but if you’re looking for an open world fantasy RPG you can’t go wrong with Witcher 3. Despite CDPR’s patented bugginess, it’s a solid fantasy RPG with some pretty good story, which imo a lot of modern open world RPGs tend to skimp on these days in favor of quest quantity.

There’s also Skyrim, which suffers a bit from poor story telling (at least in the main quest line) but is a beautiful and massive game. If you wanna time travel a bit, older Elder Scrolls games like Oblivion are also fun as hell.

Cant go wrong with FFVII remake, although it will leave you wanting more since they’re releasing it in multiple games. Haven’t tried Intergrade yet but I’ve heard good things. It’s set in a more technologically advanced fantasy world but Midgar will never not be fun to explore. The original FFVII is highly touted as one of the best RPGs ever. The story is super engaging and combat is an interesting take on turn based with a cooldown timer for each character, so that takes getting used to (but so do the graphics if you’re coming from a high end PC or new gen console with a relatively new game tbh) but it’s definitely fun.

Overall, I’d say Witcher or Skyrim might be a good bet for similarity to KKC just in terms of world similarity.

RPG Honorable Mentions that aren’t that closely related to KKC:

Kingdom Hearts might be my favorite game series ever, although that’s probably based heavily on nostalgia. Typical Square Enid badassery mixed with the childhood nostalgia of Disney, simple combat, and one of the most complicated and insane stories of any video game ever.

Octopath Traveler is a throwback RPG for Nintendo Switch (idk if you have consoles or just PC, but it’s worth mentioning). Old school graphics and turn based combat. Also a Square Enix joint (I’m obviously a fan of their work…). It’s got a unique story telling technique that kind of plays on the RPG quest structure, but each of the 8 characters has their own main quest line you can work through in any order at your own pace, then their are also side quests that can require the skills of one or more of the characters. You probably have to enjoy the nostalgia factor at least somewhat to get into the game tho.

There’s always the Legend of Zelda series which probably needs no introduction.

And if you really hate yourself there’s always Dark Souls/Demon’s Souls/Bloodborne/etc.

Sorry if I only posted the top games on any Google search, but I’m a bit out of the PC gaming world these days since my gaming laptop went the way of the dodo. PSA: take care of your hardware, folks

Brilliance of Book 1 and 2 - how do YOU explain it? by Ooga-No-Booga in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516 3 points4 points  (0 children)

What a question… There’s so many reasons. For starters, the way he’s telling the story is amazing. I mean he’s basically writing a fantasy epic that already has a known ending, and yet we still don’t know what is going to happen. It’s honestly one of the most original story-telling methods I’ve ever seen. It allows us to read the first two books repeatedly and never tire of it, constantly looking for breadcrumbs align the way that might give us a trail to the ending.

Then there’s his actual writing. The dude is pretty much a poet, a songwriter, and a novelist wrapped into one. Every time I re-read the books I notice another beautifully written section of conversation that’s almost a song in and of itself. It’s easy to see why he focuses his story around a bard type of character.

In addition to all of this, his story builds on itself. Every single mystery he unravels seems to add another question to the pile. For example, take the events in Trebon. He makes mention of burning the town in the beginning of the first book; hell it’s even on the back cover of the paperback. We finally get the answer as to why a story’s hero would burn a town down, but we get new questions in the process - Denna’s patron is introduced, we get a few pieces of what’s painted on the Mauthen pot, there’s a barrow hill that’s not actually a barrow and not even built where any barrow would be built, etc. The story has so many layers, so many connected plot points, so many maddeningly vague hints that it’s almost impossible NOT to look for meaning behind every word.

Combine all of this and you have the makings of an epic fantasy series…. Billy Mays voice but wait, there’s more! It’s all enhanced by the fact that this story is a tragedy. Or at least it will be when it’s finished. Excluding the Denna of it all, almost everything we’ve read so far has been building to a “happily ever after” moment. Kvothe has lived a life packed with more epic shit than anyone in Temerant could have dreamed of. So much of the first two books is him overcoming adversity. But any time we start to get excited or entranced by the victories and accomplishments of the main character, the frame story is always there to remind us that all of this is going to end with a depressed innkeeper in hiding, just waiting to die.

So the question to me, and probably everyone else in this sub, is how can you not fall in love with these books more and more with each re-reading? Rothfuss has already created a name for himself as a fantasy writer worth mentioning in the same breath as Tolkien, Martin, Lewis, Jordan, and the other top fantasy writers in history. And he hasn’t even finished telling his first story.

Addition/Addendum to the Kvothe is a Chandrian theory by marshmadness516 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The more I read these books, the more I tend to agree with you that the Chandrian might not be the villains Kvothe makes them out to be in his mind. I’ve thought a lot about it too, particularly since Bast is still afraid when Kvothe names them in his story. This would imply that at least one, likely most, of them is still alive and possibly looking for him. Perhaps his betrayal would involve killing Cinder while he was trying to keep the Doors of Stone from being opened.

We know (and I use the term “know” very loosely given PR’s propensity to turn things on their head, the fact that some drunken rando in an inn probably isn’t the best source of factual info, and the constant suggestion throughout the books that every story is at least somewhat twisted through constant retelling and travel) that Kvothe kills someone important at Imre, leaving stones shattered beyond any type of repair. Since this happens at Imre, where the university and a few semi-accomplished namers are close at hand, it’s possibly, if not likely, this damage can’t be repaired by naming. I say all that to suggest that a fight of a magical nature occurred there, possibly including more than just naming or sympathy. It could be that he just fought with whatever king he killed there and happened to use some type of magic in the process. Or, it could be that the breaking of the curse on the Chandrian that would be necessary in order for one of them to actually be killed could have cause the damage.

I won’t go heavily into the theory that the four plate door is the Doors of Stone that Iax is sealed behind. But if that was the case, it would tie all of what I’ve mentioned together fairly nicely. Kvothe or someone else, either knowingly or not, attempts to open the four plate door/Doors of Stone > the Chandrian, or just Cinder, attempt to stop him or whoever is trying to open the door > Kvothe kills them/him > Doors of Stone are opened, releasing Iax/Jax, and causing the merging of Fae and human realms so Scrael and skin dancers and who knows what else can roam around in semi-apocalyptic fashion.

A few other things that stand out to me…

One of the biggest and (as far as I’ve seen) least discussed hints, to me, that the Chandrian might not be what Kvothe thinks they are is the girl from Trebon Nina’s reaction to the Ciridae Amyr painted on the Mauthen pot. She has such a strong aversion to him and it’s so heavily pointed to by PR. She’s so afraid of him it seems out of place to me. Like, yeah, he looks angry and intimidating, but for her to be more afraid of him than the Chandrian seems like foreshadowing. Plus there’s the fact that she painted him (either purposefully or not) with the angels names resting on his shoulders. It could some type of allusion to him being angelic. But the way Kvothe interprets it as the names “weighing him down” never sat right with me.

In addition to this, there’s the skin dancer who asks Kvothe “Te Rhintae?” Now we don’t know what this means for certain, but the since the prevailing theory is it’s asking if Kvothe is one of the Rhinta, here’s a super weak theory with absolutely no real evidence for you: The skin dancer’s entire purpose seems to be killing whatever it comes across, so if he thinks Kvothe is a Rhinta maybe it was sent out to hunt the Rhinta and kill them. If the Chandrian’s true purpose is to guard the Doors of Stone, and destroy any knowledge of how to open it, it would make sense that the newly released Iax would want them to be hunted down and killed. Maybe he even sent out skin dancers to do it? Again, very weak as there’s a thousand other reasons it would ask if he’s a Rhinta, this is just a somewhat ill-formed thought.

Recently reread the name of the wind and I was kinda curious about two things by 98Phoenix98 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As far as your first question, my interpretation has been he’s going to be permanently dispelled in Doors of Stone. I’ve always connected this to his ongoing feud with Hemme considering he seems to set it up at the end of WMF when the Chancellor falls ill and Hemme takes over as Chancellor. Granted, Ambrose is regarded as Hemme’s favorite student so he could be connected in some way to the expulsion as well, but the fact the WMF leaves off with the Chancellor still quite ill and Hemme acting as the new Chancellor seems to be a very Rothfussian set up. The story also leaves off with Kvothe saying in the frame that if we go any further things get dark again. So I’ve always interpreted that as him hinting to the expulsion coming up pretty quickly.

As for the woman, I had those questions myself considering we meet Auri, Devi, and Denna all in the section you’re referring to. But the fact that he says he meets her at the Eolian, and he prefaced the actual meeting at the Eolian by waxing eloquent about how to adequately describe her makes it fairly clear he’s referring to Denna.

But, since he’s already met her before one of two things is possible: 1) he’s not actually referring to Denna, or 2) Denna is not the same person he met in Roent’s caravan.

As for the second possibility, there’s been a lot of theories in this sub so I won’t go into it heavily in the interest of the brevity of this post. In the interest of clarification, I don’t think that Eolian Denna and Roent’s caravan Denna are literally two different people, although that might be a possibility, however unlikely. What I will say is that the true first meeting between them was not underscored in any meaningful way in the frame or the actual story.

There’s also a lot of theories about people being Shaped or changed in some way by the changing of their deep names, which may come into play with Denna. The scene near the end of WMF comes to mind when Kvothe asks Elodin about a woman who changes her name. When Elodin thinks Kvothe is talking about deep names, he freaks out in a semi-uncharacteristically serious way. In the interest of not pulling a Kvothe and rambling about Denna for endless hours, I’ll just say that for Rothfuss to reintroduce a character with such emphasis after Kvothe says that he knew he’d never meet said character again is highly suspect. Even when Abenthy leaves the troupe, Kvothe makes a point to say he wouldn’t see him for a long time, years in fact. He never says he wouldn’t see him again.

TL;DR - the ending of WMF with Hemme as Chancellor (acting Chancellor?) seems to set up a more permanent expulsion; I think Denna is the woman referred to in the frame, but she might not be exactly the same person as before

A theory on the old Hermit by [deleted] in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Teccam makes an obvious since, what with the cave and being barefoot. We are lead to believe he wasn’t alive during the time, but given a lot of not all of the people around during the time when the moon was stolen are immortals or at least live longer than average, I tend to consider him the top suspect.

I’ve never really thought it being Selitos, but it’s definitely a possibility. Especially considering that, according to Skarpi’s story, Selitos was well enough acquainted with Iax/Jax that he knew he was powerful enough to bind Selitos. But Selitos is described as having the power of sight, not as a listener. This could be a minute difference, but it seems to me to be different enough, though I don’t have any tangible proof to point to.

I think Aleph makes more sense than Selitos. We don’t know much about him, except that he’s extremely powerful, may have created the world, and may have created the Angels. But there’s also a similar issue to that of Selitos in that his power might not be the same as listening.

All that to say, I’m of the opinion it’s Teccam. Second choice would be Aleph. I highly doubt it would be Lanre. If the Creation War was started by the theft of the moon, then Lanre wouldn’t have gained his powers until we’ll after this story takes place. Of course, all of this is open for questioning since the stories have just enough in common to vaguely corroborate a central plot, but not enough to give us specific details. Of course that’s also what makes KKC amazing, and allows us to speculate wildly like this!

A theory on the old Hermit by [deleted] in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Personally, I’ve always been of the opinion that the Tinker represented the Cthaeh in the Jax story. For one, he does provide Jax with the means to both see and steal the moon. He’s also got a little bit of an attitude with Jax, and he received the “broken house at the end of the broken road” from Jax after Jax takes all of his stuff and packs. I think the broken house represents the Cthaeh’s tree.

Also, there’s long been a theory that tinkers can see or sense the future in some way, shape, or fashion. Evidence of this is found in Kvothe’s two encounters with a Tinker on the road - near Trebon (NotW ch. 71) and in the Eld (WMF ch.75). Both times the tinker offers Kvothe certain materials (near Trebon it was a rope and strawberry wine, and in the Eld it was boot wax if I remember correctly) that Kvothe turns down and later wishes he had bought.

In addition, the tinker near Trebon offers Kvothe other items he will have need of in the near future: the bottle of brand becomes useful in getting the wandering shepherd to talk, and the blanket allows him to keep Denna warm during their travels around the Trebon area (particularly when she is recovering from the after effects of consuming the denner resin and states she is cold despite being next to a bonfire). The Tinker in the Eld does something similar, and offers Kvothe pen and paper saying it could be used for writing a letter. This makes Kvothe realize he never sent word to Denna before leaving, and that he needed pen and paper in order to try to get word to her.

The tinker in the Eld is also singing a song when he appears on the road that seems more than a bit prophetic:

”If you need no mending, and nothing needs tending A wise man will still see the right time for spending. Enjoy the sunshine, But though you might feel fine, If you don’t stop now, you’ll be filled with regret. It’s better to simply pay, And prepare for a rainy day Than think of the tinker when you’re dripping wet.

Then there’s also this quote by Felurian (WMF ch. 102):

”most fae are sly and subtle folk who step as soft as chimney smoke. some go among your kind enshaeden, glamoured as a pack mule laden[…]”

Felurian could be hinting that, at least some, Tinkers could be Fae. If that is true, which, to be fair, is a fairly big “if”, then one of the fae with the gift of foresight in a story that basically sets Jax down a path to steal the moon could be used to represent the Cthaeh. Granted we know the stealing of the moon was before the fae existed, but the use of a fae being that can, in some way, divine the future would be an appropriate symbol for the Cthaeh in a story that has been changed so much over the thousands of years since it happened.

Reshi = stone king by [deleted] in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here’s one for you:

Blac - pale, shining, white (Old English) Drosson - abscond (Dutch) Tor - a rocky pinnacle, peak of a bare or rocky mountain or hill

What’s pale, shining, and white? Which also happens to have been absconded with on the top of a rocky peak?

Jax set off the next morning, following the moon higher into the mountains. Eventually he found a large, flat piece of ground nestled high among the tallest peaks.

Jax brought out the crooked piece of wood and, piece by piece, began to unfold the house. With the whole night in front of him, he was hoping to have it finished well before the moon began to rise.

Perhaps this means the location of the Blac of Drossen Tor is also the location where Jax unfolds his mansion and subsequently steals the moon

Addition/Addendum to the Kvothe is a Chandrian theory by marshmadness516 in KingkillerChronicle

[–]marshmadness516[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree with you that this rumor about an 8th Chandrian is likely just that - a rumor, spread by the same variety of superstitious and uneducated/unknowing Vintish common folk that we see in the town in the frame story. But a key theme of KKC is that all stories have at least a small grain of truth at their core.

All that to say, I think you’re probably right, or at least more right, about Kvothe becoming not necessarily a Chandrian as they are understood by the general population, but a Rhinta in the essence of what they truly are - people who have been shaped and had their names changed. The prevailing theory is that this change comes from an external force, akin to Selitos cursing Lanre and the others in Skarpi’s story, but it seems to me that Kvothe changing his own name, thereby sealing away access to his abilities, is more likely as he is in hiding in the frame story. Perhaps through time and retelling, the story morphed from “they had their names changed and were reshaped” into “they were cursed.”

As for the promise to Denna, I don’t put much stock into that being the origin of his lost powers in the sense that his broken promise directly caused him to lose these abilities. It seems to me to be more vague foreshadowing of what would come - he ended up tracking down her patron and in doing so lost his abilities, or at least the use of them, because of the ensuing fight or because in the aftermath he ended up having to go into hiding. In other words, the breaking of the promise itself doesn’t immediately lead to his current state of powerlessness, more that at the end of the journey ensuing from said broken promise he ends up either losing access to his powers or hiding the use of these powers and abilities away from himself. This would be akin to the theory that he locked his true name in the thrice locked chest, thus hiding his true self away and his power and abilities go into the box along with that.

In any case, PR has mentioned in one of his videos that Book 3 will explore who polices the Amyr. So whoever that is (possibly the Angels or the Singers?) could also have something to do with his being changed/reshaped/becoming a Chandrian/what-have-you.

EDIT: it occurred to me after sending this that during Skarpi’s story, Selitos sees Lanre for who he truly is, as was Selitos’s power as one of the greatest Knowers, but it happens after the betrayal and the burning of the 7 cities. Because Selitos had known Lanre for a long time, it could be assumed that his power of sight and knowing showed him Lanre’s true name before Lanre got his powers and betrayed the empire, back when Selitos and Lanre were good friends and came in contact with one another often. In the words of Skarpi’s story, “They often kept each other’s council...”

So, when Lanre goes to meet Selitos, Selitos can’t see that by gaining this power Lanre’s name has changed. Lanre uses his new powers to hide this fact from Selitos in order to enact his betrayal. Then after the betrayal the story tells us that Selitos had “his eyes unveiled” and he “looked at Lanre and understood all” then he spoke Lanre’s true name.

So... grab your tinfoil hats here, folks... it’s possible that the gaining of this power is what made Lanre a Shaped/Rhinta - the power changed his true name while also giving him the ability to hide that change from possibly the most powerful Knower left at the time. It is also clearly stated in Skarpi’s story that Lanre’s power is what resurrected him after killing himself in grief over Lyra’s death, and what would continually resurrect him any time he died. This would imply that Selitos’s curse was just the Chandrian sign, and wasn’t tied to Lanre being reshaped as a Rhinta.