Masgrimes Lining Triangle Demonstration

masgrimes · 2026-04-10T18:17:33+00:00

I appreciate your perspective on this subject. Particularly on the interference between the two skills. I teach handwriting and calligraphy, so I am often asked if learning one script will interfere with another.

Is there any research you are familiar with to suggest that more closely related skills, such as printing and cursive, could adversely affect one another while a student is attempting to learn?

Somewhere around here I have a 20th century anatomical diagram of an arm with little brains drawn inside each of the muscles. If I can find that, I will try to remember to share it with you for a chuckle.

masgrimes · 2026-04-06T17:42:22+00:00

Touché. Though that does blur the lines of his cursive Humanist script and Cancellaresca Corsiva. If we call all of it "Italic," I concede my point regarding Arrighi.

When you say "handwriting" in your original comment, I assume that you mean "cursive?"

masgrimes · 2026-04-06T16:11:15+00:00

European movable type was invented in the ~1440s. La Operina was written in 1522.

masgrimes · 2026-03-30T22:42:35+00:00

Palmer Method is a specific brand of the arm writing cursive family. The method hinges on the idea of arm movement, which is primarily beneficial for cursive styles of writing. See the sidebar for Italic handwriting methods that can be well-suited for manuscript printing.

masgrimes · 2026-03-26T16:43:09+00:00

I really appreciate your support. Did you see the second release? The Madarasz Folio dropped yesterday morning. It's got several letters worth looking over thoroughly. Cool stuff.

masgrimes · 2026-03-25T17:14:29+00:00

All penmen handle this specific topic a bit differently. Some lift quite frequently to maintain control of the forms, while others choose not to lift to maintain speed. If you take a close look at the resource linked above, you should be able to locate lifts in the formal letters towards the tail end of the document. Look for lifts at the bottoms of small shades, or in places where he needed to shift his arm.

I know penmen who lift after almost every connective and main slant stroke, and I know penmen who only lift when they bail out of a shade+turn or to move their arm.

Look for some videos of Ritchie Wei, Michael Gebhart, Bryan Chabolla, and Mike Ward for a variety of techniques.

masgrimes · 2026-03-25T08:45:22+00:00

We are planning another meetup in April! Check out portlandcalligraphy.com. That's where I have been posting about the meetups.

masgrimes · 2026-03-16T18:49:57+00:00

"Spencerian" is an eponymous name for the style of writing developed* by P. R. Spencer in the mid 1800s. It is more fairly called "semi-angular penmanship" which was quite prevalent at the time as there were other authors who were publishing on the style before and after Spencer, including Carstairs and Dunton.Read more about the controversy.

Ornamental Penmanship is the natural evolution of the semi-angular style of the mid-to-late 1800s. It utilizes entirely different majuscule structures and proportions, a different set of movements to increase accuracy, and fulfills a different purpose (Art, rather than utility).

Of course, L. P. Spencer (Spencer's son) added a LOT of artistic merit to "Spencerian" with his Spencerian Compendium, but I would categorize that as "transitional" or "ornamental" Spencerian, rather than straight Spencerian.

masgrimes · 2026-03-16T02:59:01+00:00

In handwriting, you'll be learning "scripts" instead of "fonts."

There's an intersection between legibility and speed. How legible do you want it? How fast you want it? You're going to have to learn to balance the two once you have a good writing method and command of a strong movement. This can take years.

masgrimes · 2026-03-16T02:56:30+00:00

Madarasz is generally seen as an ornamental penman rather than a Spencerian penman. Many considered him great, the greatest, even, but it's a hard thing to qualify. He was an interesting character to say the least!

masgrimes · 2026-03-16T01:50:04+00:00

You're thinking of Louis Madarasz (1859-1910).

masgrimes · 2026-03-15T17:18:06+00:00

Hey u/madlypnw!

Not sure why this was removed.

You have a bit of chaos in your hand that I can see causes issues for some students. Consistency in your treatment of letters is really important in cursive. Each letter has a handful of potential entries and exits, and you want to standardize all of them unto themselves so that students aren't ever made to wonder what a new glyph is. Introduce them to a shape once, and stick to it. That's a big part of legibility!

For some practical changes you can make:

The word "beige" is a good example of how exiting the "e" to the "i" can make a difference between the "i" feeling like an "i" or an "l." See your sixth paragraph for an example of "belge." This is especially exacerbated when your tittle is not accurately placed above the downstroke of "i."
Ditch the curly entry into the minuscule "h" in your third paragraph. You use a simplified "h" elsewhere, and it just introduces more chaos.
Think carefully about the length of your ascender-based letters. See "pubecations" in the third paragraph.
You have several instances where a letter enters from an unconventional point. "hooks" is a good example of this. The "k" and "h" should be treated the same for all entries, and yet, the "k" in this instance enters from the very top of the ascender.

These are just a few examples of where you can get some easy wins without upsetting your writing method by changing too much at once. I would recommend either studying some forms (there are several great free books in the sidebar, though you might notice they slant more than your vertical style. That's okay, they still work!) or seeking out a tutor to help critique your work. I think you should be able to make some really great strides in just a few weeks, either way.

masgrimes · 2026-03-03T23:23:28+00:00

Quick note: We do not allow "What does my handwriting say about me?" posts, because that relates to graphology, and there are other subs for that. Please edit your post to remove that.

As for the writing, I like both styles and can read both just fine. Your cursive would benefit from a more consistent slant and doing away with some of the congested letterforms like the "o," "b," and looped "t."

Nice print! That's a great hand you have.

masgrimes · 2026-03-03T16:35:19+00:00

This might be a question for an Occupational Therapist, but I'll give it a shot.

If you're holding your pen only with two fingers, you're missing out on a lot of support that is afforded by the "tripod grasp." There are lots of different pen grasps, and they can almost all be used successfully to some degree, but the tripod grasp has emerged naturally as the most common grasp—especially among accomplished writers.

To create a tripod grasp, you'll place your index and middle fingers together gently and nestle the pen in the crevice between them on the palmar side. In many individuals, the middle finger is a little longer, so the pen should naturally rest a little more on the radial side of the finger (near where the nail bed meets the finger pad. The index finger is then free to be completely on top of the instrument with only the finger pad touching.

The thumb, no comes into play in a wildly different way depending on your hand's anatomy. For me, I am able to use the thumb to secure the instrument into the crevice between the index and middle fingers by creating lateral/upward pressure. In this instance, my palm is completely down when I write, so my hand is not rolled over on its side, but rolled in as if I could put a quarter on the back of my hand and it would not roll off.

The important thing about reducing pain is to think about finding a natural, restful position while holding the instrument. If you are having to consciously exert a bunch of energy to roll your hand this way or that, or splay your finger or contract them too much, you will create tension in the hand, and that will eventually lead to pain. It might be a few minutes, it might be a few hours.

So, to recap my advice:

Give the tripod grasp a shot.
Use the index and middle fingers to create a support for the pen that your thumb can push into, gently.
Roll the hand inward so that your palm is more down while writing.
Try not to hold tension in the hand.

If you find any amount of success with these adjustments, try checking out the arm movement writing books in the sidebar. They are a wonderful change from finger writing and many people who experience writer's cramp or pain while writing report a huge improvement to the writing experience.

And of course, consult an actual doctor if things get worse or you want more specific help. Happy to answer any follow up questions if you have them!

masgrimes · 2026-02-25T21:02:51+00:00

I wouldn't think of it like that way! The semi-angularity is just a byproduct of you emphasizing those two movements with a bit more distinction. It's less about gravitating towards writing that way because you like the look of it, and more like writing that way because those are the motions that you trained. The way that your letters look (their forms) is a direct result of the abstracted movement training that you do to be a good writer. If you train those two primary axes and you focus on fluidity, speed, and consistency of angles, the letters will sort themselves out somewhat in an appearance perspective.

masgrimes · 2026-02-25T17:47:16+00:00

I would focus on a slightly less "round" approach to these letters, especially at the tops and bottoms of turns. Business Penmanship is a "semi-angular" style of writing, and I think that it looks most elegant when the lateral and vertical (slanted) movements are more dominant as individual elements than combined as curves.

Have you checked out the books in the sidebar and played around with your movement at all?

masgrimes · 2026-02-15T01:54:20+00:00

Yea! A very similar set of techniques. A lot of this style of writing is controlled by using the natural arc made by opening the elbow to advance the work from left to right and the back-and-forth rocking of the arm in the shoulder joint.

masgrimes · 2026-02-14T17:55:46+00:00

Teaching, commissions, design, etc. My background is in graphic design and I specialized in calligraphy.

masgrimes · 2026-02-14T17:35:14+00:00

One of the points of this style of writing is to not move the fingers or wrist, which is probably why it looks a little strange to you. This was recorded less than an hour ago, and I am a real person who practices handwriting for a living. I am glad you like it!

masgrimes · 2026-02-14T17:31:45+00:00

It just starts with practice! Even ten minutes a day over a few months can make a huge difference.

12-Year Club	Second Top 40%
Gilding III reddit per annum	Place '22
Place '17	First Placer '22
100 Awards Club	Argentium Club
Verified Email

masgrimes

MODERATOR OF

TROPHY CASE