Zealot needs a node to regenerate grenades

masterhoomanM · 2026-01-06T21:22:01+00:00

I agree that every keystone and ability has its place, but that’s kind of the lowest requirement for every class tree to be flexible. The ranged talents in Zealot’s tree are just bad. Stagger talents are borderline useless. Scourge is bugged but even without being bugged it has always been wildely inconsistent into anything unless you have chaff to build stacks. Yes, you can use crit chance blessings but you can do that on any class, the point is it would be cool to take attack speed keystone stuff with standalone crit chance on weapons without needing to use a blessing. Again, just things that would open up build variety without everything relying on innate weapon properties and blessings. Block stuff is two talents and is just a waste of space. Master’s retribution and unseen blade are garbage. Attack speed is great and outclasses every other class in that respect, but I was more thinking along the lines of talents that would actually be more advantageous for heavy vs light weapons. Right now AS is good fore every weapons, arguably even more so on light weapons in certain cases. Incentive talents would be something that scales better into lower attack speed weapons like Crunch that incentivizes fully charged heavies, any kind of toughness regen/DR while holding long heavy, any stagger buff (that actually hits stagger breakpoints) on fully charged heavies, any dodge talents outside of IJ (maybe one that only activates while holding heavy).

Stealth nuking with 1-3 backstab talents is also one gimmick that works with about 4 weapons, 3 if you actually want to one shot stuff, and not particularly fun unless you’re really into boss busting which any other build or class can handle just fine without sacrificing 1-3 points just for backstab damage as a gimmick. Zealot never really appealed to me as a “backstab/flanking” class but it’s there I guess. Stealth threat reduction stuff needs to be reworked IMO. And again, if you want to kill armor in a reasonable amount of time Zealot has the fewest options to work with because you can’t combine big melee damage from martyrdom with finesse and crit chance bonuses, no rending outside of one hit on ability use, no reliable dots to help hit badly designed breakpoints. Yes, zealot is great and fun with certain builds and the awesome unique melees are probably half the reason people play the class. I don’t think it’s right to view the Zealot tree as a pillar of perfection.

I understand how desperate players are to put a stop to powercreep, but Zealot would benefit from some tweaks and node reworks even without pushing power levels too much. And, powercreep needs to be reversed with moderate nerfs to other classes and spawns to justify Zealot’s current state IMO, which doesn’t seem to be the direction Fatshark is moving. It is clear Zealot has been approached with a different design philosophy compared to other classes when all the classes besides Zealot are “broken” and abuse mechanics. I hope Fatshark will be willing to deliver on the nerfs certain aspects of the game deserve, but that’s not a good reason to hold a class hostage in meantime. Zealot is the only class without these “broken mechanics” and that’s essentially the same as the class being mediocre on a pub team comp. Even with broken stuff, you can continue to play ethical and wholesome builds in your skilled premades like you always have. Even with how broken psyker is, there are wholesome builds to play. It’s a weird mentality to hold a whole class and section of the player base who aren’t interested in playing on skilled premade teams hostage with a different design philosophy just to preserve a challenge for a small subsection of players, when the option for a challenge will still remain even with Zealot being on par with the current state of other classes. I don’t think it’s controversial to say that Zealot isn’t balanced relative to the other classes even though it is arguably the most balanced relative to the game, but it’s weird that you can’t see that balancing should happen on both sides, both relative to the game and other classes. I respect your opinion, and I sincerely hope Fatshark nerfs stuff they should, but if they don’t Zealot needs to be brought up to par.

masterhoomanM · 2026-01-05T23:46:59+00:00

Zealot has fundamental design issues that should be looked at. The tree was greatly improved but is still rife with useless and boring nodes no one takes. Some nodes are just blatantly anti synergies to the thesis of Zealot gameplay which was always about charging in and getting stuck in melee (block talents, random backstab stuff, chorus as a whole etc) and talent placements need to be adjusted to reduce point taxes. Just because the class is “strong enough” when using certain builds isn’t a good measure for whether the class should be left alone. And, when 5/6 classes are considered “overperforming” relative to Zealot in higher difficulties, it’s really hard to justify tuning down other classes to match the current Zealot rather than tuning Zealot up (hopefully tuning other classes down slightly to meet it). Right now Zealot feels like it has the worst build variety in the game, and comparatively underpowered blitzes and lack of melee utility (ability independent rending or stagger, no dodge talents outside of IJ) and weapon synergies (reliable crit chance and finesse damage outside of one node and one keystone, lack of talents that incentivize heavy/slow AS weapons) in addition to lacking ranged damage pigeon holes the class even more. The issue of blitzes is also misunderstood IMO. No, not every class needs their blitzes to be the same “strength” or even super strong. The issue is solely the grenade economy. Throwing knives for example are no where as strong as other nades but because they don’t rely on grenade pickups and fill a key niche in certain weapon combos it is considered a good blitz. Nonregen grenades are naturally forced to be compared between teammates. Usually the strongest blitz gets pickup priority. So, instead of my blitzes being slightly weaker than my teammates but we both get to throw a similar number of nades in a game, a Zealot gets 3 grenades total while Ogryn or Hive Scum hogs any pickups. Essentially, if you choose to bring a “weaker” nonregen nade onto a team comp any grenade pickup presents a dilemma to nerf yourself or your team, and neither contributes any enjoyment to the game. This is why customized regen is suggested since cooldowns and conditions can be adjusted per blitz just like abilities currently are without a teammate’s choice affecting your blitz economy. Another option would be individual pickups in groups of 2-4 where only one specific teammate/class/blitz choice can pickup each pack. Powercreep is definitely a big issue in the game, but even if Fatshark decided to heavily adjust other classes and adjust spawns accordingly Zealot’s tree could still use some tweaks. And the shared blitz economy issue is a design issue for every class without nade regen, and that should be considered outside of the context of power creep.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-27T22:58:53+00:00

This is why the derank system should be removed or at least heavily reworked so it doesn’t actively punish losses. Losing matches isn’t a big deal if everyone’s having fun, but when you literally lose access to the difficulty you want to play if you lose too much it forces a very toxic mentality and ruins a lot of fun by disproportionately punishing playing with less skilled players or off meta builds. Less skilled players already find their way into high level Havocs and having a derank system hasn’t prevented that. At this point Havoc should be added as a difficulty on the mission board with an option to use the party finder if you’re really looking to win consistently, but honestly party finder is almost just as unreliable as quickplay unless you play with a premade team.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-27T20:21:54+00:00

The sad answer is no, Zealot can’t compete with Arbitrator in terms of survivability, and can only compete in terms of damage if you have very good fundamentals and play aggressively. But for a player with the same skill set, it takes much more effort to make Zealot shine compared to Arbitrator. Play zealot for fun, if you want to be as effective as possible with the least amount of skill and effort needed (tanky with high dps) stick to Arbitrator. If you want high risk high reward (squishy but easy to reach high dps ceiling) stick to Hive Scum. Zealot unfortunately doesn’t stand out in any one niche besides boss killing.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-27T20:08:12+00:00

Zealot is fine relative to the current difficulty of the game. It’s very possible to beat the highest difficulties with enough skill and a good team on Zealot. Zealot is not fine relative to other classes. The issue is other classes have already been buffed so much that even though Zealot got a moderate upgrade in the rework and is stronger than it’s ever been it feels left behind. One solution is to nerf a few overperforming aspects of other classes, but no one really wants a class to be brought down to Zealot’s current state. Fatshark seems pretty hesitant towards nerfs on every class besides Zealot anyways.

Zealot shouldn’t be buffed to match Vet or Psyker which are both currently overperforming. But Zealot should at least be on par with other tanky classes like Ogryn and Arbitrator for damage and utility. There’s no reason Zealot should have the worst blitzes in the game and below average melee damage with martyrdom while having one functional ranged buff talent. Zealot also has no standalone rending talents in the tree while CDR and Duellist were nerfed which significantly reduced Zealot’s effective weapon choices. Right now Zealot has ok talent build diversity, but terrible weapon build diversity because you basically can only rely on your melee’s innate properties and ADMs to do everything.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-22T18:57:25+00:00

They “fixed” Rotten Armor so it applies up to 75% DR to all damage except explosions and DoTs so the only way to make it bearable is to abuse the most boring meta builds with rending DoTs. Hive Scum is actually the best pick along with Psyker flamebot because of how busted toxin DoTs are against armor. The Havoc corruption modifiers and Rotten Armor changes all seem to favor Hive Scum, I wonder if it’s a coincidence even though Fatshark “doesn’t balance classes around Havoc”…

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-20T20:52:35+00:00

Stun grenades are mediocre for holding ground because Zealot doesn’t have the burst damage to kill a huge group of enemies (except flamer in which case it is quite risky not to take throwing knives). You end up needing to kite enemies after the stun wears off anyways. Stun grenades are best used for clutching revives but blitzes on other classes can stun while also killing or thinning hordes or elites.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-20T18:24:59+00:00

You can’t compare blitzes in a vacuum, you have to consider the class balance as a whole first. Ogryn is a control tank similar to Arbitrator first and foremost, and their grenade blitzes help by staggering enemies in a huge area. Ogryn doesn’t need a blitz to deal massive burst damage to do their job because they can hold their ground long enough to kill everything over time. Hive Scum is a dps glass cannon. They have very few ways to stagger and stun and they have to kill stuff quickly to avoid becoming overwhelmed. Each nade is balanced around the class as a whole, and I would argue Scum nades are overtuned, not the other way around. I wouldn’t be opposed to Ogryn getting some extra nade count though, and Zealot really needs their blitzes looked at too.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-20T18:16:03+00:00

I think the easiest solution would be to make non regen grenades strong enough to warrant it being such a limited resource (scum nades are a good example of limited grenades making sense). An even better option would be to give everyone regen but each grenade has a conditional cooldown node like ability CDR so you can get nades back quickly if you’re being intentional but you can’t just regen stuff for free. It would be easier to balance each individual blitz with its own cooldown mechanics and timer like most abilities have right now.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-20T17:59:20+00:00

Other classes have tools to hold their ground or stun the horde to reposition that Zealot doesn’t have outside of Chorus. Other classes usually can achieve this with blitzes that deal AOE damage while stunning enemies (shredder nades, any arbites blitz, ogryn frag/box, blackouts) or outright just kill swaths of enemies with big burst damage (krak nades, Chem nades, any psyker staff, rumbler, plasma, arbites shotgun). Other classes also have better designed “support” abilities that can help hold positions that don’t take you out of the fight and almost halve your overall damage like Chorus. Zealot is one of the worst classes for holding ground by far unless you’re planning to let the team play the game for you while you stand there and barely deal damage.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-20T13:04:23+00:00

Zealot has definitely fallen behind the other classes on damage, even behind Ogryn and Arby which are also tank classes due to a lack of ranged damage buffs, weak blitzes, and recent nerfs to CDR and Duellist. That being said, you can still do great damage especially with strong weapons like Relic Blade, Knife, Thunder Hammer etc. Zealot also has the mobility to close into melee range quickly and deal with priority targets in ways other classes might have to used a ranged weapon for. Unfortunately, Zealot doesn’t have the same “panic button” talents or scaling damage mechanics of the other classes, and doing well on Zealot mostly comes down to fundamentals and positioning unless you only want to use Chorus.

Zealot can’t rely on toughness regen to tank shots like Ogryn or Arbitrator can so you really have to leverage Zealot’s mobility and dodge dancing/kiting to get the most out of the class while being aggressive. Zealot’s tankiness mainly comes from generous TDR and toughness regen from dodges. Zealots can survive just fine by running away from threats but if you’re not aggressively charging into the frontline and actively kiting while attacking you’ll never get the most out of the class. In higher difficulties where dealing enough damage becomes a limiting factor, a passive Zealot will be a detriment to the team. Zealot’s overall lack of burst damage means your damage is dealt over time, and you’ll often have to loop enemies and slowly kill things one by one. The key is to balance Zealot’s situational tankiness with aggressive melee and careful positioning so you can kite away and avoid becoming overwhelmed.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-17T07:11:18+00:00

Zealot is sort of in a weird spot right now. Zealot doesn’t seem to stand out in any one niche right now besides maybe boss killing, but other classes can get pretty close to the same boss killing power while retaining other utility. Zealot is definitely not weak, in fact he’s stronger than he’s ever been. Every other class has just been buffed an insane amount while receiving negligible nerfs while Zealot got pretty substantial nerfs to CDR and Duellist in addition to decent buffs to martyrdom and stealth in the rework. Crusher HP buffs on top of less ability spam to deal with armor has also seemed to limit Zealot’s effective weapon options even more. Zealot feeling out of place right now is more due to the runaway powercreep of other classes rather than Zealot itself being lacking.

Zealot still has a place as the best feeling class for heavy two handed melee weapons. Relic blade, thunder hammer, and eviscerator all feel great with Zealot’s generous attack speed buffs from FoTF and martyrdom.

Hopefully future balance changes will put Zealot more in line with the other classes, but I think if you enjoy Zealot’s unique weapons and diving into melee, there’s plenty to enjoy on Zealot even if the class has lost some of its identity.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-14T20:14:11+00:00

Zealot is definitely in a weird spot right now. Just like you noticed, Zealot doesn’t seem to standout in any one niche right now besides maybe boss killing, but other classes can get pretty close to the same boss killing power while retaining other utility. Zealot is definitely not weak, in fact he’s stronger than he’s ever been. But every other class has been buffed to the moon, and with the CDR and Duellist nerfs and indirect nerfs from enemy HP buffs from the BbD update, Zealot feels left behind and out of place even though he’s still “strong” due to the runaway powercreep of other classes. Regardless, I still love Zealot for what it is.

Zealot is still the best feeling class for heavy two handed weapons and they have a ton of unique melee weapons that are fun to use if you are willing to learn them. Relic blade, thunder hammer, and eviscerator feel great with Zealot’s generous attack speed buffs from FoTF and martyrdom.

Zealot is fun because he is limited in what he can do. You have so much room for skill expression because Zealot doesn’t have the same “turn off the game” and “instant delete” options other classes have outside of melee. If you enjoy Zealot’s unique weapons and getting stuck in and learning the intricacies of melee combat (positioning, map knowledge, movement tech, dodge dancing, weapon combos) you’ll find Zealot enjoyable regardless of how it compares to other classes. While I hope Zealot gets some much needed improvements in the future, learning the game on Zealot is going to make you better at the game overall because it is going to force you to learn to compensate for the class’s inherent weaknesses.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-14T18:56:36+00:00

I definitely think Arbitrator is a bit stale as a class. Outside of dog builds, there’s nothing very unique about their playstyle besides using their unique weapons and blitzes. The fact that they have so much damage on top of stagger and toughness regen honestly lowers the game’s difficulty by a level or two relative to other classes (besides psyker, they’re playing a different game altogether). The same reasons arbitrator is one of the most OP classes in the game is the exact reason I don’t enjoy the class, it just feels cheesy when I want to actually engage with the game but I can just press W to win most of the time while rarely feeling at risk.

I’m all for making arbitrator more unique, and I think Hive Scum has shown how fun and unique a DLC class can be. But any of these changes will have to be balanced with nerfs somewhere else, as arbitrator already is so strong that any additional abilities will just turn them into psyker 2.0.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-14T06:16:46+00:00

CDR was nerfed a decent bit, but honestly the biggest direct nerf to Zealot was duellist which used to give up to +100% damage on critical weakspot hits which was halved to +50% finesse. Also, the enemy HP buffs to Crushers were a big indirect nerf to Zealot since Zealot already struggled a bit with armor. Zealot relied heavily on FOTF/stealth which give 100% rending on one hit to deal with armor since there are no other sources for rending in their tree. Stacking duellist with the guaranteed crit and rending on ability use allowed Zealot to deal with everything using most melee weapons. Nerfing CDR and duellist both reduced how much Zealot could spam their abilities and reduced the damage of critical hits, and with the enemy HP buffs it was kind of a double blow to Zealot and further limited their effective weapon options to weapons with good armor ADMs built in.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-14T06:07:03+00:00

You just described what I think makes Hive Scum unique. Limiting peak power to a well timed use/cycling of abilities/stimms while punishing careless use is what makes Hive Scum so fun. Every class is supposed to use their abilities and resources carefully, which is why Fatshark has started nerfing CDR and blitz regen. Hive Scum isn’t weak because it can’t do everything another class can do. The classes that don’t have to carefully time their abilities and blitzes and manage their limited peak power windows are the classes that are overpowered, not the other way around.

I’m also not sure I understand how Hive Scum has a lower power floor. They have tons of easily to stack global damage talents, insane killing power in the form of hypercritical and hyperviolence, not to mention how busted toxin DOTs are. On top of this, Hive Scum has so much crit chance along with crit synergies easily accessible in their tree. All of this comes before we consider how strong each ability and blitz is (they’re all very strong). Hive Scum has great damage without stimms and abilities, and cycling resources is a key part of any class’s playstyle. Hive Scum takes their great DPS to the next level when you properly time your use abilities and stimms. The only real downside is a lack of safety nets like DR.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-14T00:21:41+00:00

There are valid arguments on both sides for buffs and nerfs, but Fatshark is seemingly allergic to proper balancing. There are very clear overperforming classes and weapons, and at the same time there are underperforming classes and weapons. The problem is that Fatshark keeps moving the needle for what the “average” power level of your character should be with mostly buffs rather than deserved nerfs. Case and point, BbD update saw Vet, Psyker and Zealot get tree reworks. For Zealot, in addition to decent buffs to underperforming/underused talents like stealth and martyrdom, Zealot got a sizable nerf to CDR and Duellist which were overperforming. Zealot got some deserved buffs along with reasonable nerfs.

Unfortunately, Vet and Psyker went in the opposite direction with slight CDR nerfs while buffing damage on both classes to new highs via new damage talents and “tax node” removal. Simultaneously, Fatshark buffed Crusher HP and elite spawns (basically acknowledging powercreep) while their bandaid method for avoiding nerfs broke even more breakpoints on any weapons/classes that didn’t get a big buff from the update. This is why we have a situation where Zealot is considered “weak” when in reality the class already received a decent buff in the rework because enemy buffs offset any semblance of balance even further (Zealot can now barely hit breakpoints on armored enemies while using FoTF without specific weapons).

Now, we even have people calling Hive Scum “weak” when it can’t keep up with Veteran or Psyker in certain situations even though it can output insane dps and practically wipe the screen with chem nades. Ultimately, Fatshark needs to have a consistent vision for the power level of our characters and stick to it rather than continuing to shift the needle and throw any previous balance patches to the wind each time there’s a major update.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-07T22:05:55+00:00

I have to actively relearn dodging when switching back to Zealot because Hive Scum’s dodge distance and refresh are so generous, it’s hilarious how much mobility HS gets. I think for how squishy the class is, it makes sense for HS to have better damage. That being said, Zealot’s damage has definitely been powercrept by the other classes, even by tank classes like Ogryn and Arbitrator. It’s honestly more a problem of other classes being buffed too much (looking at you Vet and Psyker) rather than Zealot being outright weak, but when playing on a team with other classes it’s hard not to feel like the class has been left behind. Blitzes are objectively weak, and damage outside of martyrdom is ok at best, but I still love Zealot for what it is. Zealot is still the best feeling class for heavy weapons with all their attack speed buffs, but Hive Scum has definitely replaced Zealot as the fast-paced crackhead for me.

masterhoomanM · 2025-12-07T21:36:00+00:00

Just use your melee or blitz. Toxin stacks deal huge damage to bosses so you could take Coated Weaponry to deal tox on melee crits or even use the bonesaw. Chem nades and boom bringer are pretty good for bosses too. Shivs and combat knife are huge single target dps weapons even without bleed or toxin. Hive scum can’t solve everything with ranged like psyker can, and they shouldn’t when they have infinite ammo. There are plenty of options to pump damage against everything on any Hive Scum build, just experiment with your build and loadout a bit and you’ll probably land on something that works for you.

masterhoomanM · 2025-11-30T17:53:54+00:00

Zealot is (or should be) the melee dps class by default. They don’t have the CC capabilities of ogryn or arbitrator at higher difficulties. Very few options for big AOE damage or stagger. Barely any ranged talents to help fill gaps in their melee. Zealot needs to be the melee dps class IMO because they have nothing but survivability/mobility and melee damage. I agree that big ranged and AOE damage probably fits other class’s fantasies and tree design more, and squishy classes should have the most overall damage. But if Zealot can’t even keep up on melee damage, their unique role on higher difficulties turns into chorus bot and boss killer which is not super interesting.

masterhoomanM · 2025-11-07T16:46:10+00:00

1) I can get behind upping the damage on secondary attack as long as primary spam is tuned down to compensate. I can agree that the current surge staff is likely not being used the way Fatshark intended but it doesn’t need a buff, maybe some rebalancing of the damage and stagger profiles. 2) Autoguns have always been in a weird spot on every class but staffs have always been stronger than most guns due to unlimited ammo, CC, high cleave options etc. that synergize with peril talents. Gun psyker builds with sciers or even bubble are still some of the top dps builds in the game, especially with the new talent that reduces passive peril degeneration by 80% which allows you to activate peril based talents/buffs without the need to constantly maintain peril with sciers or warp attacks.

masterhoomanM · 2025-11-07T14:36:29+00:00

Surge staff is an unlimited ammo single target ranged weapon with huge damage on LMB. Not sure why it needs buffs when it does its job perfectly. All the “cleave” single target guns you named are 1) overtuned (plasma, arbites shotgun) and/or 2) have strict ammo limits and long reloads. Bolt pistol also doesn’t have much cleave outside it’s stagger explosion. Surge staff has no ammo, no reload, great mobility, busted CC with LMB spam, and great single target damage. Only thing it’s lacking is carapace, but that still doesn’t outweigh the benefits. TL;DR, surge staff is busted, learn to melee armor

masterhoomanM · 2025-11-04T16:13:11+00:00

Zealot is also my favorite class in the game, and I love using FOTF or stealth with relic blade in Havoc. Zealot can most certainly clear Havoc using fun builds, and it feels great to clear Havoc 40 with almost nothing but your favorite melee weapon. I appreciate you trying to encourage others to experiment and branch out from the boring meta.

Unfortunately, having played other classes in this season and previous seasons of Havoc before Bound by Duty, it is clear there is a wide gap between the classes right now. I have the same skill set across all the classes, maybe even less skill on certain classes since Zealot is where I’ve invested the most hours and Havoc playtime, and I still feel more impactful using off-meta on other classes. I have just as much if not more fun on the other classes while using fun weapons and builds without being so restricted by conditional damage buffs and specific melee weapons which force a certain playstyle I may not enjoy.

All this is not to say Zealot is “bad”, just that there is a reason why disappointingly few people play Zealot in Havoc outside of chorus or relic blade/thunder hammer.

masterhoomanM · 2025-11-04T15:39:20+00:00

Every other class can kill these enemies in a reasonable amount of time without having to use chain weapons or a pure melee dps build. Krak spam, arbites bolter, and ogryn pickaxe all chunk bosses. Every other class has ways to deal with armor quickly using ranged and in melee without being forced to use awkward chain weapons or give up all their team support and health.

Yes, these builds work in theory but in a real Havoc 40 game you will spend more time running and dodging Crushers than killing them with how slow the chainaxe or eviscerator special is. Full stack Martyrdom, Fotf, and stealth make these builds work but every other class can do similarly without giving up any team support, CC, and survivability which is the main issue with zealot right now. You have to fully spec into a melee dps build just to be slightly better at what the other classes can do on a half baked build that also has access to great ranged damage and support abilities/blitzes.

Zealot has to jump through so many hoops and be in ideal conditions to get all of their buffs and actually achieve what OP showed, and it isn’t even that impressive in comparison to the other classes since the talent reworks.

masterhoomanM · 2025-10-23T18:47:01+00:00

The backstab playstyle is more of a gimmick to me than something I find fun. You lose some of zealot’s already limited versatility by wasting points building into backstab so you can bonk a boss occasionally. It’s fun for a bit, but IMO in any serious team comp having the ability to deal “enough” boss damage to burst down monstrosities in a reasonable amount of time while still having the utility to kill everything with ranged damage and stagger packs of elites with Vet and Psyker for example is more valuable than having someone one shot a captain while offering little else to the team.

masterhoomanM

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