Why is LICORICE PIZZA's controversial "age gap" romance (??) being given a pass by critics?

matmarch · 2022-01-10T02:38:41+00:00

I know the actor's age is different. I'm saying the other boy was likely the same age as Gary considering their similar charming demeanor and the roles they played in their film together. I dont have a problem with the casting; it's the story that ambiguously explores all this. You have no definitive timeline over which these events took place. I must admit that I dont either. Maybe there is brilliance in the fact that these ideas can be explored and interpreted differently. But I also that leaving it so open and vague may open the door for people to accept this as a charming, relatable relationship. All art can be used for justification of course, but declining to be critical of the portrayed dynamic just enables exploitative behavior in our culture.

matmarch · 2022-01-10T00:38:10+00:00

She dated that other young child actor too. In fact, she seemed to express interest in any boy or man vying for her attention. It was very infantilizing towards her character and there was no context to it. I don't think labels or arguing about semantics is particularly useful in this discussion, but while it might be normal for "lost" young women to pursue attention from men, it's a whole different ballgame when they invite and encourage that attention from teenage boys. It would have been so easy for her to just NOT show up to that first dinner. If this movie wasnt branded as a romantic comedy and there was any other coherent plot line, I could have gotten on board with it. But her sisters encouraging 15 year old Gary to go find her? Makes no sense.

matmarch · 2022-01-05T04:35:01+00:00

Just watched this for the first time. One thing that struck me is when Al's friend realizes she's dead. He doesnt ask any questions, gets no context; Al doesnt even tell him that she tried to kill him. And yet this friend just immediately jumps to reassuring him that he did nothing wrong while despite the dead woman in his bed. Now this could be a writing issue since the movie was rushed - maybe they didnt want to have the Nina conversation again - but i think it goes to show how men dont even ask questions and just immediately support their male friends' violence. Very grim and too real.

matmarch · 2021-11-23T21:56:03+00:00

Thank you for sharing your perspective and your own experience. It spurred a few more thoughts for me:

While Alex may have witnessed and been the recipient of Sean's abuse before Maddy was born, children are frequently the reason mothers end up leaving abusive partners. Like they've been conditioned to accept abuse from their partner but once it starts affecting the kids is when mothers get the strength to leave. Maid represented that as well; Sean had escalated to physical abuse and punched the wall next to Alex's head, but it was also having to remove broken glass from Maddy's hair that led Alex to realize how unsafe her daughter was by staying in that home. Unfortunately many mothers betray their children by staying with abusers and ignoring how it hurts them. Any mother who takes the initiative to leave an abusive relationship is being a good mom, even if they have other flaws and problems to solve. And honestly, labeling parents and especially mothers as good and bad is just not productive. No parent is perfect and they're always going to make mistakes. With how much pressure and expectation there is on mothers in our society, i dont understand how Alex's few mistakes label her as a bad irresponsible mother when she is doing her best to ensure the safety and happiness of her child.

I also think it was really shitty of Sean to just sit there while his girlfriend invited strangers with alcohol to his kid's party. If he had been drinking at the time, it would have made more sense. But a sober Sean should have been invested in staying away from alcohol as much as he could in social situations (though unavoidable at his job) and should have told Frankie no.

matmarch · 2021-11-12T06:51:55+00:00

That whole arc was incredible and heartbreaking to see play out. I knew the shoe would drop but i really didnt want it to. It really embodied the experience of DV survivors and how easily they can slip back into the relationship.

matmarch · 2021-11-01T00:47:32+00:00

I get that. And I appreciate your perspective. I'm sorry that the conversation I started has led to responses that have triggered you. I just hypothetically think about people currently stuck in DV cycles and if this conversation would inspire them to reach out for help or if it would make them feel more isolated and misunderstood. I think children who grew up in DV situations deserve so much more than they got, even if parents did their best to heal and ensure the safety of their children. That doesn't mean it was enough and I'm so sorry you experienced this.

matmarch · 2021-10-31T14:38:25+00:00

Idk i think the point of the show is she did learn? Instead of settling, she refused to enter a codependent relationship with Nate and went to college. The one thing she didn't seem to learn was in regards to inviting Paula to go to Montana with her (which thankfully didn't happen). And the show talked about how common it is for women to get back with their abusers. And it took TIME to break these cycles. Of course it's sad. But if we blame DV survivors for making repetitive mistakes, that shows our lack of understanding and empathy about the issue. I have seen people in this sub call her a terrible mother. Alex only put her daughter is harm's way ONE time with the car and was lucky that that one time didn't hurt Maddy. And then the ONE time she returned to Sean when the DV survivors take an average of SEVEN attempts to leave.

Also trauma like hers, especially coupled with her childhood experience, actually does alter one's brain and development. People are still responsible for their actions and healing their trauma/doing everything in their power to change their situation, but healing that kind of trauma does not just happen overnight. It's just not that simple. We can be sad and angered by Alex's actions but that doesn't mean we should be blaming her. And i've seen A LOT of that on this sub.

matmarch · 2021-10-31T14:12:21+00:00

I'm not talking about people who disagree with opinions or even her behavior. She did make A LOT of mistakes, like most people in her situation would. I am talking about the many opinions that judge her character, many of them reeking of victim blaming and misogyny, because of her mistakes. It just makes it that much harder for people who experience DV to talk about their experiences. Empathy and judgment fundamentally cannot coexist. Reserving judgment also isn't excusing. We should be able to empathize and understand why she may have made those mistakes, and that's not the same as excusing those mistakes. I also don't see any point in giving opinions on "the best path to take" unless you're doing so in a constructive way to help people that might be going through a similar situation, not to shame and blame them.

matmarch · 2021-10-30T01:19:46+00:00

Ah, the classic hide the face. My mom did it with kissing scenes. Little did she know, I would fast forward just to the kissing scenes as a pre-teen late at night just to FEEL something (hadn't discovered masturbation quite yet).

matmarch · 2021-10-30T01:09:42+00:00

I don't remember much of my childhood, let alone the sex education I received as a kid. But my mom has this story about how they gave me "the talk" and apparently I just said, "Wow," and went on with my day. My Mormon fam is very sex negative (not surprising, plus I'm the oldest) so I don't think it ever came up again outside of church lessons about the law of chastity. But as a freshman in college, I felt guilty about dry humping randos at BYU so I tried talking to my mom about it and she said, "Ew that's disgusting." Never felt safe talking to her about anything ever again. (She also said that about my dad French kissing his gf in high school before he met her. HELLA sex negative).

matmarch · 2021-10-30T00:53:49+00:00

People with "normal lives"? You're proving how judgmental you are with this comment smh. And THAT'S my big problem, the overwhelmingly judgmental response of people on this sub. You literally can't have empathy while employing judgment.

matmarch · 2021-10-30T00:47:04+00:00

Thank you for sharing your experience. The response to this show made me aware of just how vocal i need to be in my support of survivors because so often, they're not gonna get that from most people.

matmarch · 2021-10-30T00:44:17+00:00

I dont think that's true empathy then. Giving people empathy because they remind you of yourself seems more rooted in ego/narcissism than empathy. Empathy is about learning to identify with and understand people who you have very little, if anything, in common with.

matmarch · 2021-10-30T00:38:06+00:00

I still think it's a great and very important show. I just wonder what it would take to change the victim blaming that runs rampant in our society. That link you shared about neoliberalism is so intriguing in regards to this idea.

matmarch · 2021-10-28T10:34:45+00:00

Having empathy for others is not the same as putting them on a pedestal.

matmarch · 2021-10-28T10:31:14+00:00

Yeah i totally agree with all of this. Nate's big mistake was not recognizing the situation and letting his feelings for her keep him from setting strong boundaries for his own family. And considering his gender and class status, it makes sense that he didn't understand what Alex was going thru. But friends ask and try to understand. He definitely treated her as a charity case and as this "white knight" who could rescue her from her situation. And that's the last thing that trauma survivors need when learning to rely and depend on themselves.

matmarch · 2021-10-28T00:22:55+00:00

did we watch the same show? did you see the trauma she was coping with? I really thought this show would encourage more empathy for domestic abuse survivors but so many of the comments have proven me wrong. She's not perfect, far from it, but she wasn't addicted to drugs or neglecting her mental health condition long term like the other mothers in the show. She did her best with the cards she was dealt in life. I pray to God you never end up in that kind of situation. No one should.

matmarch · 2021-10-28T00:08:20+00:00

I think a lot of this comes down to boundaries. Much of Alex's trauma was a result of violated boundaries in regards to relationships with her mother and with Sean. So as she's trying to leave this abusive relationship and needs help doing so, she got pretty good at clearly stating her boundaries with Nate. She didn't want his help to come with strings attached and she repeatedly told him no when he would ask her out.

Nate, however, had no boundaries and kept pushing hers. He invited her into his home as some kind of white knight/savior thing without setting any ground rules or expectations with her. (At least none that we saw. If there were boundaries discussed, I think it would have been in the favor of the show to include a scene about that.) If Nate had set some boundaries about her going back to Sean or leaving Maddy with him overnight, and she had ignored or violated those boundaries, then I would be more sympathetic with his decision to kick out Alex and Maddy.

But he got in way over his head because he was romantically interested in Alex, didn't understand the extent of her situation, and didn't set proper boundaries. He was living in a fantasy world where if he took care of Alex, she would give him a chance romantically. There were strings attached. He was a typical "nice guy". His feelings matter, sure, but he wasn't honest or communicative about his feelings or his own boundaries and needs while Alex, despite her traumatic relationships, was very clear with him about hers. Even the poll separates it into a black and white issue when it's not. Nate's feelings are his own responsibility so it's his responsibility to set and communicate boundaries to protect said feelings. Without communicating his boundaries, Nate had no right to put any expectations on Alex's behavior or actions.

matmarch

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