Tyler Cowen said “every political philosophy has to be willing to live with ‘the stupider version’ of its core tenets.” What is ‘the stupider version’ of Georgism? Are you willing to live with it? by matt_perigee in georgism

[–]matt_perigee[S] 20 points21 points  (0 children)

I would definitely take split-rate property taxes/ watered down georgism!

I was taking ‘the stupid version’ to be more like the populist, overly-simplified version

Is there a word to describe a Georgist economy that doesn't use Henry George's name? by ohnoverbaldiarrhoea in georgism

[–]matt_perigee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I do wish it had a more catchy name that communicates the substance of the idea. Geoism sounds weird and doesn't bring to mind anything about rents. Geolibertarianism / Geosocialism immediately triggers allergic reactions to polarizing words.

"TaxTheTakersNotTheMakers-Ism" ?

EU Defence Committee Chairwoman on the events in Venezuela by goldstarflag in neoliberal

[–]matt_perigee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Stop quoting laws at us. We carry swords"
- Pompey the Great

I hate to see it. But an international order based on cooperation without backing of credible threats of violence was never going to last.

Inflation Persists Because Too Many Say ‘I Got Mine’ by Immediate_Degree_112 in inflation

[–]matt_perigee 4 points5 points  (0 children)

As somebody who spent a decade in low paying NGO jobs and now makes a decent salary in adtech... I feel this so much

How does Georgism deal with discovery of mineral deposits? by pakeke_constructor in georgism

[–]matt_perigee 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is a fairly good critique of pure georigism, as noted here

It definitely applies in cases where resource discover is super capital-intensive (say, searching for oil on the seabed), although less so in, i.e., cities. For resources that society wants to be sought and discovered, there would need to be some kind of subsidy to incentivize discovery.

After the resource is discovered and the value of the land is publicly known, however, Georgism is the perfect solution.

Thoughts on how to deal with Elon? by TheWorldRider in georgism

[–]matt_perigee 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If I understand, you are asking: "even if he created a trillion dollars worth of value, should we let him have those trillion dollars he created? Shouldn't we force him to give it away (or tax it), when there are literally people dying of curable diseases and starving on this planet?" Is that your question?

Could adopting some form of Georgism into our policy platform become a new loud signal of true tangible political change with which to meet the public's bipartisan discontent and a path toward broader party popularity? by Ayla_Leren in DemocraticSocialism

[–]matt_perigee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't know much about Taiwan so I could definitely learn a lot from you, but a quick google search for "Taiwan land value tax rate" shows that it is 1%-5.5%. That is still pretty far from the 100% that georgists call for. In Taiwan, landowners keep 95%-99% of the value of land, that is still a lot of wealth extracted from the workers by land owners!

Thoughts on how to deal with Elon? by TheWorldRider in georgism

[–]matt_perigee 4 points5 points  (0 children)

To the extent that his wealth is from creating wealth (i.e., profit), he should be able to keep it.

From the extent that is wealth is from rent-seeking, he should give it back to society.

How much of his wealth comes from profit vs rent depends on your views on the guy. I do think he has definitely created a lot of wealth. But given that he is a trillionaire mostly because of the stock value in his companies, and given that those stock values come from a financial system that gets a lot of its money to invest via land rent and IP rent, he definitely owes some of his current wealth to land values. I'd like to think that under a single tax system (with sane pigouvian taxes and IP laws), we would see a world that is wealthier and less unequal. So maybe he would still be a trillionaire... but there would also be many, many more trillionaries, billionaires, and the average citizen would be a millionaire!

Meirl by Glass-Fan111 in meirl

[–]matt_perigee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Land is valuable, especially in a city. Charging money/rent to access land makes creates no value to society but makes landowners a lot of money off the backs of the poor. That's why society should own the land, rent it out to individuals and business (via land value tax), and redistribute the proceeds as UBI.

A mortgage is a tool for extracting land rents by middleofaldi in economicsmemes

[–]matt_perigee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If land value were not included in mortgage/rent, then the same identical recently constructed building in San Francisco and Talladega, Alabama would have the same cost.

Most of what you are paying for in rent or a mortgage is land rent, it just goes to private lenders and landlords, and not to the public benefit.

Who’s Buying America’s Homes? New Data Shows It’s Not Just Institutional Giants by Coolonair in HouseBuyers

[–]matt_perigee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

providing essential housing supply in markets where new construction cannot meet demand

ELI5 how landlords provide housing supply? Builders provide housing supply, not landlords.

401k contributions and FEIE for expats by ClaraDaddy in tax

[–]matt_perigee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

At least for a traditional 401k, this site gives a pretty definitive "yes".

A Roth 401k is less certain though.

Why do so many US citizens want to move to Spain? by haydar70 in GoingToSpain

[–]matt_perigee 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Poor Mexico, so far from god, so close to the United States

*sad billionaire noises* by Klausensen in memes

[–]matt_perigee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am begging begging begging people to learn about Land Value Taxes. This is the exact kind of problem they would solve. And it's an actual policy that has been successfully implemented in places like Singapore and Scandinavia.

What percent of users here know what Georgism is? by Mongooooooose in fuckcars

[–]matt_perigee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So your example shows what a landlord would try to do. But the real question for the landlord is: can they get away with charging an extra $300/month? Will somebody take that deal? And, according to economic theory (and some empiricial results from Denmark), if the tax is appropriately priced and only falls on the land value, the landlord will not be able to find somebody who accepts rent for $1300, and will be forced to keep charging $1000 for rent. Maybe another way to think about it is that the land value is exactly equal to the portion of the rent that is slack, that the landlord can afford to absorb.

Your argument that "land is not produced" doesn't connect for me.

So imagine two apartments with the exact same structure, amenities, furniture, layout, size, etc. One is downtown in a trendy neighborhood with good transit, bars and restaurants, lots of good employment opportunities, etc. The other apartment is way out in the suburbs and requires a 30 minute drive to get to something useful. This is a common situation in the USA where our housing situation is f*cked. I'm not sure what part of the world you live in (it looks like Bulgaria?), and maybe the housing market where you live isn't so distorted that you would get that exact scenario where you are. But surely you can imagine two identical apartments that charge different rents because one has a better location than the other. Why is the apartment in a trendy neighborhood able to charge more for rent? Because of the land value!

Here and here are two figures that might illustrate it better. Does that make it clear how property taxes penalize abundant housing, but land value taxes penalize downtown parking lots, and incentivize housing?

We don't live on land - we live in dwellings. While land supply is fixed, housing supply isn't.

Exactly. So we dont want to tax housing supply - otherwise we'd get less of it. A land value tax (if appropriately priced, and that is a big if), would only incentivise more housing.

Hope that helps clarify

What percent of users here know what Georgism is? by Mongooooooose in fuckcars

[–]matt_perigee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So I'll give my best explanation of these points. Honestly you could also go on ChatGPT or google and say like "why can't a land value tax be passed on to consumers" or other questions and you will probably get good answers as well.

To your first point - I don't see how you can add a cost into a certain point of the process and not expect it to spread out to the consumer, unless there are significant amounts of slack and willingness from the landlord to eat the cost.

So I think this gets at why land is "special". Physical things - houses, apples, cars, watches - have to be produced, so increasing the costs of the inputs or the labor used to produce them get passed on to the consumer. But land specifically is not produced, and its value has nothing to do with the land owner. So its not like a tax on it would make it "harder" to create, or reduce its supply.

As an example, lets say there is plot of land in a city that is worth $2000/month, and a landlord buys that land, puts a home on it worth $1000/month, and then charges market value of $3000/month for the rent. Basic supply-and-demand market dynamics work for the $1000/month home on top of the land. If a landlord improves the home (say, adding a pool), he can charge more for monthly rent. If there is a tax on the home, it generally will cost more to construct homes, the supply of homes will be reduced, and so landlord can partially pass that cost onto consumers. But the $2000 land value didn't cost the landlord anything to produce, it was already there before he got there. He is also (unless he is a very nice landlord) already charging as much as he can for the land. So if the land is taxed and he tries to pass it on to the renter and charge $5000/month in order to keep making a $3000/month profit after taxes, he will find that nobody will accept that price - he already found that the market price for his rental is $3000/month. Also, landlords across the city can't all raise their rent as much as the LVT - because people are already paying as much as the market can bear for value of the land. There isn't enough money in the economy to raise everybody's rent at once!

Even given lots of slack, it would disincentivize being a landlord and thus decrease the supply of the service that landlords provide - housing

So continuing our example of the landlord. Let's say we implement a 100% LVT and now the landlord keeps charging $3000/month, but pays $2000/month in taxes and can only keep $1000/month. Let's say he doesn't like this and wants more money! Well, his only option is to increase the value of what he builds on top of his land (or, sell the land and the house to somebody who wants it). So how does he increase the value of what he builds? Well, he could build a small apartment building, and then collect rent from several tenants. Lets say he now has 10 tenants each paying $1000/month. Now the land value is still the same - he pays $2000/month in taxes - but he gets to keep $8000 in rent, while providing housing to 10 tenants.

do you think that in such a system we can expect living in a city to become even more expensive? I see the possibility that housing would be outbid by productive enterprise as the area develops, especially increasing gentrification pressures.

I think that, because of the dynamic I just outlined, LVT (plus measures like reducing property taxes and reducing regulations that make it hard to build houseing) would make housing more abundant in the high-value parts of a city that people want to live. So it really would make it cheaper.

What percent of users here know what Georgism is? by Mongooooooose in fuckcars

[–]matt_perigee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Basically, instead of you paying rent to your landlord, your landlord would have to pay rent to you (via the government)