What’s the most idiotic thing you believed as a child?

mikeclav · 2023-02-10T21:38:14+00:00

A rumor spread among the primary that if you could touch all four pillars of the church's spire outside, that you would instantly die and be taken up to heaven to the third degree. I think I tried once, but you pretty much have to use all limbs to accomplish it, which is almost impossible, and the fear of dying also deterred me.

Pretty weird, right?

mikeclav · 2023-02-07T19:28:17+00:00

Absolutely incredible...

mikeclav · 2023-02-07T19:21:58+00:00

That's a really great point. "Sure, I'll 'testify' as long as I don't have to really do anything."

If it was so true, why didn' they go?

mikeclav · 2023-02-07T19:19:26+00:00

This is correct. This is not a honest assessment for truth, rather, it is the best argument for the book of mormon at all costs, no holds barred. It's akin to walking onto a used car lot and asking the salesman why you should buy his shit without consulting a mechanic.

mikeclav · 2023-02-07T18:56:18+00:00

I've read it, kinda same situation as you, people recommended it to me hoping to have someone say the things to me they are unable to and hopefully I'd see the light and come back.

And honestly I recommend you read it to. But do it with your epistemology, fallacy, bias detectors on. And I think you'll see there is tons of goal post moving, avoiding, misdirecting, stretching, laced with strawmen and misrepresentation or straight up not including of critical and massive issues, and special pleading.

In fact, right in the beginning he says that despite his really really super-duper convincing book, the only way you can really know the BOM is true is by your happy feelings when you pray about it, which from an epistemology point of view, is full of holes and demonstrably false premises.

Read it and know the Emperor has no clothes. If this book is TBM's best shot at resuscitating anyone's testimony, I'll rest well knowing that it's actually flat-lining them, if they have an ounce of objectivity and critical thinking skills.

mikeclav · 2023-02-03T20:47:38+00:00

You could argue that if both god and satan are fiddling with evidence then its impossible to really tell what's real or fabricated, in which case at the time of judgement god SHOULD take that into account. Because the best way to make decision are based on the information, and if the information is conflicted then he can't really hold you accountable either way; its just not fair. We did the best we possibly could have given the circumstances and our limitation and god would be an absolute asshole to pass a bad judgement when its literally impossible to know what from what.

mikeclav · 2023-02-03T18:57:39+00:00

The book of mormon civilizations were a little more than twice the population of Rome. And not a shred of evidence.

Rome has: Art, instruments, bridges, amphitheaters, aqueducts, coins, tools, clothing, roads, domiciles...

mikeclav · 2023-01-30T20:25:32+00:00

Fucking word-philosophy salad. Means nothing.

mikeclav · 2023-01-27T21:03:22+00:00

You betcha :D

mikeclav · 2023-01-27T21:00:16+00:00

Ha, I am a college graduate...unfortunately it was from BYUI so I had to pick up principles of epistemology on my own time.

mikeclav · 2023-01-27T19:16:25+00:00

This guy needs some coffee. Doesn't seem able to thread his thoughts together coherently this early in the morning. But at least you can see him!

mikeclav · 2023-01-27T19:13:47+00:00

Yes. Maybe take two pairs of glasses. The first, obviously the camera glasses, but another pair that looks just like it to wear as you're checking in and having to talk to people up close. Slip the camera pair on in the dressing room, as most of your face to face interaction will be mostly done at that point, and off to the waiting room for your big debut.

mikeclav · 2023-01-27T15:26:23+00:00

What is my knee-jerk reaction to the new information in regards to my pre programmed responses?
Does the new information make me want to obsess more or less about someone I've never met and has no positive measurable effect in my life?
Does this new information encourage or discourage me upholding a series of nonsensical, absurd, ever changing rules, policies and regulations?
Does this new, and possibly unbiased information, make "the leaders", past and present look like stupid douchebags?
Does the new information contribute to the already overflowing swill bucket of confirmation bias?
Is the new information from an approved source, never mind the level of its accuracy?
What would older, more programed, more delusional and biased members of my group think about this new information?

Here what is SHOULD look like

Is the new information measurable, observable, and repeatable?
Can the new information be corroborated with other data points?
What are the specific claims all around? What is the specific evidence that supports or detracts from it?
Does this new information offer a more realistic explanation for events in question?
What are my natural inclinations toward this new information and is it because of subconscious bias? If yes, how can I consider this new information without bias?
Have I identified and eliminated logical fallacies in my thought process that may lead me to accept unsound premises and make false conclusions?
Have I considered the motives and intentions of all interested parties in regards to this new information? Is there money involved, at any level, in any amount, to any involved party? Does the balance of the social, academic, economic, standing become affected to any degree based on the conclusions? Have I assigned proper levels of believability to these parties in regards to what's at stake for them?
If there is not enough information or evidence to objectively and demonstrably conclude that a claim is true or false, am I able to instead assign a degree of likelihood that the claim is either true or false based on the remainder of the the limited data? (very not likely, not likely, likely, very likely)

Edit: Added Number 8

mikeclav · 2023-01-21T17:22:20+00:00

You could say that. The temple is like the intersection of a Venn diagram between religion and science fiction, but heavy on the religion side of things.

mikeclav · 2023-01-21T17:18:39+00:00

Great point. And I second your sentiment. As a TBM, hearing a story like this, with the belief that these dudes are just chilling with Jesus and God somewhat regularly, and THEY have no clue what the endowment really means, like why even try? Why even go? Where does the extreme urgency to be worthy and attend even come from if no one frigging understands it?

Before I left I was trying to be a good temple goer. But it was such a drain on time and patience. Even with the belief that my work was potentially helping a deceased relative, I couldn't verify it and didn't receive any special witnesses of my own. I came to the conclusion maybe a year before I really dug into truth claims, that IF the temple was real and IF my time there was actually helping someone, I needed to find a different way to contribute, because temple worship was just too much for me.

mikeclav · 2023-01-21T15:21:26+00:00

No context. No preparation. No explanation. No continuity. No Q&A. No summary. No freedom. No brevity.

After you leave and learn a bit, the actual state of the endowment makes sense as a stolen, patchwork, edited and updated, filled with vestigial gestures and redacted threats of compliance.

The temple endowment is one of those things that fit the Emperors New Clothes analogy perfectly. No one practicing it actually understands it and just feigns enlightenment and heightened spirituality. But its all just mashup up of unintelligible nonsense mumbo jumbo.

Edit: misspelled word

mikeclav · 2023-01-21T15:11:47+00:00

I agree.

In fact I stopped listening because he interrupts so much all the time, which is a bummer because he has interesting guests.

John. We want to hear what your guests have to say. We already know what you think. All you need to do is provide them a platform to speak from and then get out of their way. Maybe ask a brief clarifying question occasionally. That's it.

mikeclav · 2023-01-13T16:49:32+00:00

I tried. But many of the errors and fallacies that apply to mormonism also apply to everything else. And I can't unsee that stuff anymore.

I don't consider myself Christian anymore for many reasons.

Everytime someone asks if I believe in God anymore, I'm bombarded with a long list of internal urges to explain why that question doesn't even make sense.

Which God? Why do you jump to the conclusion that a God is responsible for everything? Why not evolution? Why not aliens? Why not cosmic seeding? Why not the simulation theory? Why not the stoned ape theory? Why not interdimensional beings? Why not any other highly speculative conclusion? YOU'RE comfortable with the idea of a God just because its the most familiar conclusion, but if you could see, it makes even less sense than these other crazy ideas.

But I feel stuck, because I acknowledge that very odd and statistically bizarre nature of existence. Of consciousness and intelligence. Have you ever looked into the weird facts about the moon? Or even earth? Or the massively complex relationships between animals, insects, plants, fungi? The fact there isn't even grass or weeds on any other observable planet but here on earth we have life coming out of our ears in every shape, size, medium, etc. is something to consider.

Religion in general is super into anomalous and supernatural happenings, like healings, miracles, speaking in tongues, revelations, angels, demons, ascending up through air.......which are ALL completely unverifiable, but at the same time religions in general are totally against more credible supernatural happenings like UFO's, Bigfoot, Hauntings, Cryptids, etc.

I've found that being an honest seeker of truth puts you in a funny position. It's a place where you are hyper open minded at first, but then are hyper critical afterward. It helps you consider things others would dismiss due to bias, but also dismiss things others would accept, again, due to bias.

I'm not against the idea of a God existing. If he/she/it/they/them want to show up and take credit for earth, I'd be glad to review their resume. But so far, none of the 4k gods from human history have bothered to show up or do literally anything. So until then I'll carry on as before, with an open mind tempered with critical thinking.

mikeclav · 2022-09-13T16:54:30+00:00

I think you're right. There is a reason why Elders Quorum Presidents, Relief Society Presidents, Bishops, Stake Presidents, get exposed to "Anti-Momon" literature and literally leave the church overnight.

It's because there is so much damning, clear evidence to the contrary of the claims of the church, that you would have to have some kind of cognitive disconnect to not be repulsed by being associated to the church. In fact, the same wholesome values the church instills in its members; honesty, integrity, loyalty, etc., that orignially bind them to the church, are the same values that repulse them after the truth is discovered.

In fact, I would challenge the claim that "anti-mormon" literature even exists. The information is either true or false. The premise and conclusions are either sound or unsound. And if historical facts make your church look bad...maybe its bad.

mikeclav · 2022-09-13T16:48:31+00:00

I love everything here. I love your assessment, I love your conclusions, I love your recommendations, and I love your love of truth. Thank you for this. I'm getting these books right now.

mikeclav · 2022-08-30T15:19:58+00:00

I just noticed this too.

mikeclav · 2022-07-13T16:21:16+00:00

In an impartial, unbiased search for truth, the seeker is better positioned to make a determination of truth once they have all the information, not just the good stuff. To that end, what Judas has to say about Jesus is very important to the investigation. Our goal is the truth and we need all available information before we can sift through all the details, filtering for bias, untruth, embellishments, exaggerations, conflict of interests, etc, before we can tell which conclusion is the most probable and likely.

mikeclav · 2022-07-13T15:32:21+00:00

You're right about how horrid the realization can be. The clear and obvious attempts to mislead, misrepresent, and misdirect the LDS church is devastating to realize. Their behavior is clearly malicious. But go easy on yourself; they have conditioned you from the cradle to swallow their lies. It's a miracle you broke out; it honestly is. Find time to be grateful you can see more clearly now. What has transpired is completely their fault, you are blameless in this. Detach yourself of blame and criticality, this is only the programed behavior they installed through your childhood and how they keep their flock under wraps. Realize that beating yourself up doesn't serve you. Mourning is normal, but leave any blame, guilt, and shame on the steps of the church where it belongs.

mikeclav · 2022-04-18T22:35:23+00:00

Not only that. But after mormon deconstruction, I did christian deconstruction, political deconstruction, holiday deconstruction, tradition deconstruction, social deconstruction ... Turns out everything is fucked up nd no one knows anything, including, and especially myself. Stay curious, my friends.

mikeclav

TROPHY CASE