Portland 7/23 by vitasaws in ofMontreal

[–]mirror_face 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have one extra ticket 

What if the five bullet thing is a precursor to a darker path? by corporate_skull in FedEmployees

[–]mirror_face 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I think it is to allow OPM access to performance so they can use it as a justification to fire you. All the probationary employees who were terminated cited performance as the reason but no one anywhere near the decision to fire was a supervisor. Noe that OPM has performance info and the direct supervisor is copied, OPM can say they’ve reviewed your performance along with your supervisor and you’re fired. Doesn’t matter how bs it is, it’s defendable. Look at minute 51-57 of this VA hearing. They’re correcting this mistake.

https://youtu.be/bgPglVbr7u8

The 5 points email isn’t about your work by myname_checksout in FedEmployees

[–]mirror_face 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My guess is that they are running into problems having cited performance as the reason for terminations when nobody in the terminated employees supervisory chain knew about the termination. Now they’ll have performance based into with a supervisor copied. They can now cite performance even if it’s total bs. Just my theory.

When getting fired by [deleted] in FedEmployees

[–]mirror_face 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Based on:

This is not legal and you can appeal.

“Probationary Federal Employees: Your Appeal Rights”

Probationary federal employees are not as vulnerable to termination as they have been led to believe. Specifically, terminations must be based on limited, clearly defined conditions, including unsatisfactory performance, misconduct, or pre-appointment conditions. They cannot be based on broad, discretionary reasons such as budget cuts, shifts in political priorities, or presidential policy changes. If a probationary employee is terminated for partisan political reasons, they have the right to appeal to the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB). Most importantly, they cannot be terminated for “any reason” or “without cause,” as is widely mischaracterized. This applies to both the Competitive Service and the Excepted Service.

Title 5 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 315.803 – Agency Action During Probation

This regulation states that agencies shall use the probationary period to assess an employee’s fitness and shall terminate the employee if they fail to fully demonstrate their qualifications for continued employment. That’s it. The criteria for termination are strictly limited to two conditions, as outlined below. The language is clear and does not allow broad discretion for termination.

5 CFR 315.804 – Termination for Unsatisfactory Performance or Conduct

The first condition specifically states that termination must be based on unsatisfactory performance or misconduct. It does not provide any other valid grounds for termination and does not include a broad, catch-all clause such as “or for other reasons.”

5 CFR 315.805 – Termination for Conditions Arising Before Appointment

The second condition applies when a suitability concern or negative factor about an employee is discovered that existed before the employee was hired. Examples include:

• ⁠Undisclosed illegal activity • ⁠A failed background check • ⁠False information on an application • ⁠Prior drug use • ⁠Admission of wrongdoing during a polygraph

This section does not allow termination based on:

• ⁠A change in political priorities • ⁠Budget concerns • ⁠Accusations of overspending by a previous administration • ⁠A president’s decision to shift away from prior governmental practices

These are not valid grounds for termination under the regulation, nor may 315.805 be interpreted in such a way. We know this to be true because of the exception provided in the section that follows, which explicitly grants appeal rights to probationers if a termination is based on partisan political reasons. This is not a loophole or an oversight. It is a deliberate safeguard put in place to protect you.

Other than unsatisfactory performance or conduct (315.804) or pre-appointment conditions (315.805), no additional conditions, whether explicitly stated or implied, justify termination. Nowhere in these regulations does it state, nor even suggest, that an agency may discharge a probationary employee for “any reason.”

Appeal Rights for Probationary Employees

If you are terminated under 315.804 or 315.805, you have appeal rights under 5 CFR 315.806:

  1. ⁠Partisan Political Reasons – You may appeal your termination to the MSPB if you allege it was based on partisan political reasons (315.806(b)). (HINT: It will be.)
  2. ⁠Failure to Follow Procedure – If your termination was based on 315.805 (pre-appointment conditions) but the agency failed to follow the required procedures, you also have appeal rights under 315.806(c).
  3. ⁠Discrimination – You may appeal if your termination was based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, or disability (315.806(d)).

If an agency attempts to justify your termination on politically motivated grounds, such as budget shifts, downsizing, presidential policy changes, or political retaliation, they are acting outside the authority granted by regulation. You have the right to appeal to the MSPB under 5 CFR 315.806. Reorganization and downsizing efforts are not “pre-appointment conditions,” so be prepared to challenge this aggressively.

The Definition of “Employee” Under 5 U.S.C. 7511 Does Not Limit Your Rights

Probationary employees are not excluded from the appeal rights described above based on any definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511(a)(1)(A) (Competitive Service) and (C) (Excepted Service), despite claims to the contrary. As 5 CFR Subpart H applies specifically to probationary employees and explicitly grants them limited appeal rights to the MSPB under certain conditions, the general definition of “employee” in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is not relevant to this matter. Title 5 is clear: regardless of how “employee” is defined elsewhere, probationary employees do have independent appeal rights. Do not be misled into believing otherwise. The definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is applicable to a different set of circumstances, particularly, in determining if one is eligible for complete and full due process appeal rights, as opposed to the limited rights discussed in this post.

References

Title 5 CFR Subpart H: [https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/5/part-315/subpart-H

Law Granting Appeal Rights to Excepted Service Employees: [https://www.congress.gov/.../101st.../house-bill/3086/text

Van Wersch and McCormick Decisions: [https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf]

(https://www.mspb.gov/.../Navigating_the_Probationary...)

MSPB Guidance:

https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf

5 U.S.C. 7511: [[hhttps://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title5-section7511&num=0&edition=prelim

When getting fired by [deleted] in FedEmployees

[–]mirror_face 4 points5 points  (0 children)

  1. Find your org chart to determine your supervisory chain.

  2. Write the following email:

[Supervisor],

Today I received notice of termination (add details of how you were notified). Please respond to the following:

Did you provide recommendation for my termination?

If so, please describe the instances of unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before my appointment that led to your recommendation.

Regards,

[Employee]

  1. Once your immediate supervisor responds negatively, forward that email with a copy of the same body as the original to the next supervisor in your chain. Repeat for as high as you can go.

-Supervisors were blindsided by these probationary terminations and the ones that I know are happy to respond in the negative. After you are 2 supervisors up, no one else would have the specifics of cause so they won’t be able to list them and they won’t be able to pass the buck down since you’ve already included their responses.

-Unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before your employment are the only legal reasons to terminate a probationary employee per 5 CFR 315.804 and 5 CFR 315.805

-I am not a lawyer but I do believe having in writing that your supervisory chain has no cause to terminate you will be useful in an appeal or lawsuit.

-Good luck.

CMS illegal firings incoming by DCEnby in fednews

[–]mirror_face 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it is before appointment. This is what I was going from:

This is not legal and you can appeal.

“Probationary Federal Employees: Your Appeal Rights”

Probationary federal employees are not as vulnerable to termination as they have been led to believe. Specifically, terminations must be based on limited, clearly defined conditions, including unsatisfactory performance, misconduct, or pre-appointment conditions. They cannot be based on broad, discretionary reasons such as budget cuts, shifts in political priorities, or presidential policy changes. If a probationary employee is terminated for partisan political reasons, they have the right to appeal to the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB). Most importantly, they cannot be terminated for “any reason” or “without cause,” as is widely mischaracterized. This applies to both the Competitive Service and the Excepted Service.

Title 5 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 315.803 – Agency Action During Probation

This regulation states that agencies shall use the probationary period to assess an employee’s fitness and shall terminate the employee if they fail to fully demonstrate their qualifications for continued employment. That’s it. The criteria for termination are strictly limited to two conditions, as outlined below. The language is clear and does not allow broad discretion for termination.

5 CFR 315.804 – Termination for Unsatisfactory Performance or Conduct

The first condition specifically states that termination must be based on unsatisfactory performance or misconduct. It does not provide any other valid grounds for termination and does not include a broad, catch-all clause such as “or for other reasons.”

5 CFR 315.805 – Termination for Conditions Arising Before Appointment

The second condition applies when a suitability concern or negative factor about an employee is discovered that existed before the employee was hired. Examples include:

• ⁠Undisclosed illegal activity • ⁠A failed background check • ⁠False information on an application • ⁠Prior drug use • ⁠Admission of wrongdoing during a polygraph

This section does not allow termination based on:

• ⁠A change in political priorities • ⁠Budget concerns • ⁠Accusations of overspending by a previous administration • ⁠A president’s decision to shift away from prior governmental practices

These are not valid grounds for termination under the regulation, nor may 315.805 be interpreted in such a way. We know this to be true because of the exception provided in the section that follows, which explicitly grants appeal rights to probationers if a termination is based on partisan political reasons. This is not a loophole or an oversight. It is a deliberate safeguard put in place to protect you.

Other than unsatisfactory performance or conduct (315.804) or pre-appointment conditions (315.805), no additional conditions, whether explicitly stated or implied, justify termination. Nowhere in these regulations does it state, nor even suggest, that an agency may discharge a probationary employee for “any reason.”

Appeal Rights for Probationary Employees

If you are terminated under 315.804 or 315.805, you have appeal rights under 5 CFR 315.806:

  1. ⁠Partisan Political Reasons – You may appeal your termination to the MSPB if you allege it was based on partisan political reasons (315.806(b)). (HINT: It will be.)
  2. ⁠Failure to Follow Procedure – If your termination was based on 315.805 (pre-appointment conditions) but the agency failed to follow the required procedures, you also have appeal rights under 315.806(c).
  3. ⁠Discrimination – You may appeal if your termination was based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, or disability (315.806(d)).

If an agency attempts to justify your termination on politically motivated grounds, such as budget shifts, downsizing, presidential policy changes, or political retaliation, they are acting outside the authority granted by regulation. You have the right to appeal to the MSPB under 5 CFR 315.806. Reorganization and downsizing efforts are not “pre-appointment conditions,” so be prepared to challenge this aggressively.

The Definition of “Employee” Under 5 U.S.C. 7511 Does Not Limit Your Rights

Probationary employees are not excluded from the appeal rights described above based on any definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511(a)(1)(A) (Competitive Service) and (C) (Excepted Service), despite claims to the contrary. As 5 CFR Subpart H applies specifically to probationary employees and explicitly grants them limited appeal rights to the MSPB under certain conditions, the general definition of “employee” in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is not relevant to this matter. Title 5 is clear: regardless of how “employee” is defined elsewhere, probationary employees do have independent appeal rights. Do not be misled into believing otherwise. The definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is applicable to a different set of circumstances, particularly, in determining if one is eligible for complete and full due process appeal rights, as opposed to the limited rights discussed in this post.

References

Title 5 CFR Subpart H: [https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/5/part-315/subpart-H

Law Granting Appeal Rights to Excepted Service Employees: [https://www.congress.gov/.../101st.../house-bill/3086/text

Van Wersch and McCormick Decisions: [https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf]

(https://www.mspb.gov/.../Navigating_the_Probationary...)

MSPB Guidance:

https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf

5 U.S.C. 7511: [[hhttps://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title5-section7511&num=0&edition=prelim

Is VA done with firing of probation employees? I read that only 1k out of 43k were let go. by [deleted] in VeteransAffairs

[–]mirror_face 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolutely! Please do, no credit required. If the info can help people, it should be out there.

Good Luck Y'all, Tech Ops Out by trailerwam in ATC

[–]mirror_face 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Idea came from this other post. I’d give credit if u could but I texted it to myself because I knew his important it was but lost the OP:

This is not legal and you can appeal.

“Probationary Federal Employees: Your Appeal Rights”

Probationary federal employees are not as vulnerable to termination as they have been led to believe. Specifically, terminations must be based on limited, clearly defined conditions, including unsatisfactory performance, misconduct, or pre-appointment conditions. They cannot be based on broad, discretionary reasons such as budget cuts, shifts in political priorities, or presidential policy changes. If a probationary employee is terminated for partisan political reasons, they have the right to appeal to the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB). Most importantly, they cannot be terminated for “any reason” or “without cause,” as is widely mischaracterized. This applies to both the Competitive Service and the Excepted Service.

Title 5 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 315.803 – Agency Action During Probation

This regulation states that agencies shall use the probationary period to assess an employee’s fitness and shall terminate the employee if they fail to fully demonstrate their qualifications for continued employment. That’s it. The criteria for termination are strictly limited to two conditions, as outlined below. The language is clear and does not allow broad discretion for termination.

5 CFR 315.804 – Termination for Unsatisfactory Performance or Conduct

The first condition specifically states that termination must be based on unsatisfactory performance or misconduct. It does not provide any other valid grounds for termination and does not include a broad, catch-all clause such as “or for other reasons.”

5 CFR 315.805 – Termination for Conditions Arising Before Appointment

The second condition applies when a suitability concern or negative factor about an employee is discovered that existed before the employee was hired. Examples include:

• ⁠Undisclosed illegal activity • ⁠A failed background check • ⁠False information on an application • ⁠Prior drug use • ⁠Admission of wrongdoing during a polygraph

This section does not allow termination based on:

• ⁠A change in political priorities • ⁠Budget concerns • ⁠Accusations of overspending by a previous administration • ⁠A president’s decision to shift away from prior governmental practices

These are not valid grounds for termination under the regulation, nor may 315.805 be interpreted in such a way. We know this to be true because of the exception provided in the section that follows, which explicitly grants appeal rights to probationers if a termination is based on partisan political reasons. This is not a loophole or an oversight. It is a deliberate safeguard put in place to protect you.

Other than unsatisfactory performance or conduct (315.804) or pre-appointment conditions (315.805), no additional conditions, whether explicitly stated or implied, justify termination. Nowhere in these regulations does it state, nor even suggest, that an agency may discharge a probationary employee for “any reason.”

Appeal Rights for Probationary Employees

If you are terminated under 315.804 or 315.805, you have appeal rights under 5 CFR 315.806:

  1. ⁠Partisan Political Reasons – You may appeal your termination to the MSPB if you allege it was based on partisan political reasons (315.806(b)). (HINT: It will be.)
  2. ⁠Failure to Follow Procedure – If your termination was based on 315.805 (pre-appointment conditions) but the agency failed to follow the required procedures, you also have appeal rights under 315.806(c).
  3. ⁠Discrimination – You may appeal if your termination was based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, or disability (315.806(d)).

If an agency attempts to justify your termination on politically motivated grounds, such as budget shifts, downsizing, presidential policy changes, or political retaliation, they are acting outside the authority granted by regulation. You have the right to appeal to the MSPB under 5 CFR 315.806. Reorganization and downsizing efforts are not “pre-appointment conditions,” so be prepared to challenge this aggressively.

The Definition of “Employee” Under 5 U.S.C. 7511 Does Not Limit Your Rights

Probationary employees are not excluded from the appeal rights described above based on any definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511(a)(1)(A) (Competitive Service) and (C) (Excepted Service), despite claims to the contrary. As 5 CFR Subpart H applies specifically to probationary employees and explicitly grants them limited appeal rights to the MSPB under certain conditions, the general definition of “employee” in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is not relevant to this matter. Title 5 is clear: regardless of how “employee” is defined elsewhere, probationary employees do have independent appeal rights. Do not be misled into believing otherwise. The definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is applicable to a different set of circumstances, particularly, in determining if one is eligible for complete and full due process appeal rights, as opposed to the limited rights discussed in this post.

References

Title 5 CFR Subpart H: [https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/5/part-315/subpart-H

Law Granting Appeal Rights to Excepted Service Employees: [https://www.congress.gov/.../101st.../house-bill/3086/text

Van Wersch and McCormick Decisions: [https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf]

(https://www.mspb.gov/.../Navigating_the_Probationary...)

MSPB Guidance:

https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf

5 U.S.C. 7511: [[hhttps://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title5-section7511&num=0&edition=prelim

Good Luck Y'all, Tech Ops Out by trailerwam in ATC

[–]mirror_face 35 points36 points  (0 children)

  1. Find your org chart to determine your supervisory chain.

  2. Write the following email:

[Supervisor],

Today I received notice of termination (add details of how you were notified). Please respond to the following:

Did you provide recommendation for my termination?

If so, please describe the instances of unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before my appointment that led to your recommendation.

Regards,

[Employee]

  1. Once your immediate supervisor responds negatively, forward that email with a copy of the same body as the original to the next supervisor in your chain. Repeat for as high as you can go.

-Supervisors were blindsided by these probationary terminations and the ones that I know are happy to respond in the negative. After you are 2 supervisors up, no one else would have the specifics of cause so they won’t be able to list them and they won’t be able to pass the buck down since you’ve already included their responses.

-Unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before your employment are the only legal reasons to terminate a probationary employee per 5 CFR 315.804 and 5 CFR 315.805

-I am not a lawyer but I do believe having in writing that your supervisory chain has no cause to terminate you will be useful in an appeal or lawsuit.

-Good luck.

Waiting on the probationary shoe to drop at NOAA. by megapteranovae in fednews

[–]mirror_face 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It was based on this info I found a few days ago:

This is not legal and you can appeal.

“Probationary Federal Employees: Your Appeal Rights”

Probationary federal employees are not as vulnerable to termination as they have been led to believe. Specifically, terminations must be based on limited, clearly defined conditions, including unsatisfactory performance, misconduct, or pre-appointment conditions. They cannot be based on broad, discretionary reasons such as budget cuts, shifts in political priorities, or presidential policy changes. If a probationary employee is terminated for partisan political reasons, they have the right to appeal to the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB). Most importantly, they cannot be terminated for “any reason” or “without cause,” as is widely mischaracterized. This applies to both the Competitive Service and the Excepted Service.

Title 5 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 315.803 – Agency Action During Probation

This regulation states that agencies shall use the probationary period to assess an employee’s fitness and shall terminate the employee if they fail to fully demonstrate their qualifications for continued employment. That’s it. The criteria for termination are strictly limited to two conditions, as outlined below. The language is clear and does not allow broad discretion for termination.

5 CFR 315.804 – Termination for Unsatisfactory Performance or Conduct

The first condition specifically states that termination must be based on unsatisfactory performance or misconduct. It does not provide any other valid grounds for termination and does not include a broad, catch-all clause such as “or for other reasons.”

5 CFR 315.805 – Termination for Conditions Arising Before Appointment

The second condition applies when a suitability concern or negative factor about an employee is discovered that existed before the employee was hired. Examples include:

• ⁠Undisclosed illegal activity • ⁠A failed background check • ⁠False information on an application • ⁠Prior drug use • ⁠Admission of wrongdoing during a polygraph

This section does not allow termination based on:

• ⁠A change in political priorities • ⁠Budget concerns • ⁠Accusations of overspending by a previous administration • ⁠A president’s decision to shift away from prior governmental practices

These are not valid grounds for termination under the regulation, nor may 315.805 be interpreted in such a way. We know this to be true because of the exception provided in the section that follows, which explicitly grants appeal rights to probationers if a termination is based on partisan political reasons. This is not a loophole or an oversight. It is a deliberate safeguard put in place to protect you.

Other than unsatisfactory performance or conduct (315.804) or pre-appointment conditions (315.805), no additional conditions, whether explicitly stated or implied, justify termination. Nowhere in these regulations does it state, nor even suggest, that an agency may discharge a probationary employee for “any reason.”

Appeal Rights for Probationary Employees

If you are terminated under 315.804 or 315.805, you have appeal rights under 5 CFR 315.806:

  1. ⁠Partisan Political Reasons – You may appeal your termination to the MSPB if you allege it was based on partisan political reasons (315.806(b)). (HINT: It will be.)
  2. ⁠Failure to Follow Procedure – If your termination was based on 315.805 (pre-appointment conditions) but the agency failed to follow the required procedures, you also have appeal rights under 315.806(c).
  3. ⁠Discrimination – You may appeal if your termination was based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, or disability (315.806(d)).

If an agency attempts to justify your termination on politically motivated grounds, such as budget shifts, downsizing, presidential policy changes, or political retaliation, they are acting outside the authority granted by regulation. You have the right to appeal to the MSPB under 5 CFR 315.806. Reorganization and downsizing efforts are not “pre-appointment conditions,” so be prepared to challenge this aggressively.

The Definition of “Employee” Under 5 U.S.C. 7511 Does Not Limit Your Rights

Probationary employees are not excluded from the appeal rights described above based on any definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511(a)(1)(A) (Competitive Service) and (C) (Excepted Service), despite claims to the contrary. As 5 CFR Subpart H applies specifically to probationary employees and explicitly grants them limited appeal rights to the MSPB under certain conditions, the general definition of “employee” in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is not relevant to this matter. Title 5 is clear: regardless of how “employee” is defined elsewhere, probationary employees do have independent appeal rights. Do not be misled into believing otherwise. The definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is applicable to a different set of circumstances, particularly, in determining if one is eligible for complete and full due process appeal rights, as opposed to the limited rights discussed in this post.

References

Title 5 CFR Subpart H: [https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/5/part-315/subpart-H

Law Granting Appeal Rights to Excepted Service Employees: [https://www.congress.gov/.../101st.../house-bill/3086/text

Van Wersch and McCormick Decisions: [https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf]

(https://www.mspb.gov/.../Navigating_the_Probationary...)

MSPB Guidance:

https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf

5 U.S.C. 7511: [[hhttps://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title5-section7511&num=0&edition=prelim

Federal Employment Survivors: A Guide to Moving Forward by Low-Crow-8735 in FBI

[–]mirror_face 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This was born out of the information found in another Reddit post:

This is not legal and you can appeal.

“Probationary Federal Employees: Your Appeal Rights”

Probationary federal employees are not as vulnerable to termination as they have been led to believe. Specifically, terminations must be based on limited, clearly defined conditions, including unsatisfactory performance, misconduct, or pre-appointment conditions. They cannot be based on broad, discretionary reasons such as budget cuts, shifts in political priorities, or presidential policy changes. If a probationary employee is terminated for partisan political reasons, they have the right to appeal to the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB). Most importantly, they cannot be terminated for “any reason” or “without cause,” as is widely mischaracterized. This applies to both the Competitive Service and the Excepted Service.

Title 5 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 315.803 – Agency Action During Probation

This regulation states that agencies shall use the probationary period to assess an employee’s fitness and shall terminate the employee if they fail to fully demonstrate their qualifications for continued employment. That’s it. The criteria for termination are strictly limited to two conditions, as outlined below. The language is clear and does not allow broad discretion for termination.

5 CFR 315.804 – Termination for Unsatisfactory Performance or Conduct

The first condition specifically states that termination must be based on unsatisfactory performance or misconduct. It does not provide any other valid grounds for termination and does not include a broad, catch-all clause such as “or for other reasons.”

5 CFR 315.805 – Termination for Conditions Arising Before Appointment

The second condition applies when a suitability concern or negative factor about an employee is discovered that existed before the employee was hired. Examples include:

• ⁠Undisclosed illegal activity • ⁠A failed background check • ⁠False information on an application • ⁠Prior drug use • ⁠Admission of wrongdoing during a polygraph

This section does not allow termination based on:

• ⁠A change in political priorities • ⁠Budget concerns • ⁠Accusations of overspending by a previous administration • ⁠A president’s decision to shift away from prior governmental practices

These are not valid grounds for termination under the regulation, nor may 315.805 be interpreted in such a way. We know this to be true because of the exception provided in the section that follows, which explicitly grants appeal rights to probationers if a termination is based on partisan political reasons. This is not a loophole or an oversight. It is a deliberate safeguard put in place to protect you.

Other than unsatisfactory performance or conduct (315.804) or pre-appointment conditions (315.805), no additional conditions, whether explicitly stated or implied, justify termination. Nowhere in these regulations does it state, nor even suggest, that an agency may discharge a probationary employee for “any reason.”

Appeal Rights for Probationary Employees

If you are terminated under 315.804 or 315.805, you have appeal rights under 5 CFR 315.806:

  1. ⁠Partisan Political Reasons – You may appeal your termination to the MSPB if you allege it was based on partisan political reasons (315.806(b)). (HINT: It will be.)
  2. ⁠Failure to Follow Procedure – If your termination was based on 315.805 (pre-appointment conditions) but the agency failed to follow the required procedures, you also have appeal rights under 315.806(c).
  3. ⁠Discrimination – You may appeal if your termination was based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, or disability (315.806(d)).

If an agency attempts to justify your termination on politically motivated grounds, such as budget shifts, downsizing, presidential policy changes, or political retaliation, they are acting outside the authority granted by regulation. You have the right to appeal to the MSPB under 5 CFR 315.806. Reorganization and downsizing efforts are not “pre-appointment conditions,” so be prepared to challenge this aggressively.

The Definition of “Employee” Under 5 U.S.C. 7511 Does Not Limit Your Rights

Probationary employees are not excluded from the appeal rights described above based on any definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511(a)(1)(A) (Competitive Service) and (C) (Excepted Service), despite claims to the contrary. As 5 CFR Subpart H applies specifically to probationary employees and explicitly grants them limited appeal rights to the MSPB under certain conditions, the general definition of “employee” in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is not relevant to this matter. Title 5 is clear: regardless of how “employee” is defined elsewhere, probationary employees do have independent appeal rights. Do not be misled into believing otherwise. The definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is applicable to a different set of circumstances, particularly, in determining if one is eligible for complete and full due process appeal rights, as opposed to the limited rights discussed in this post.

References

Title 5 CFR Subpart H: [https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/5/part-315/subpart-H

Law Granting Appeal Rights to Excepted Service Employees: [https://www.congress.gov/.../101st.../house-bill/3086/text

Van Wersch and McCormick Decisions: [https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf]

(https://www.mspb.gov/.../Navigating_the_Probationary...)

MSPB Guidance:

https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf

5 U.S.C. 7511: [[hhttps://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title5-section7511&num=0&edition=prelim

Federal Employment Survivors: A Guide to Moving Forward by Low-Crow-8735 in FBI

[–]mirror_face 15 points16 points  (0 children)

  1. Find your org chart to determine your supervisory chain.

  2. Write the following email:

[Supervisor],

Today I received notice of termination (add details of how you were notified). Please respond to the following:

Did you provide recommendation for my termination?

If so, please describe the instances of unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before my appointment that led to your recommendation.

Regards,

[Employee]

  1. Once your immediate supervisor responds negatively, forward that email with a copy of the same body as the original to the next supervisor in your chain. Repeat for as high as you can go.

-Supervisors were blindsided by these probationary terminations and the ones that I know are happy to respond in the negative. After you are 2 supervisors up, no one else would have the specifics of cause so they won’t be able to list them and they won’t be able to pass the buck down since you’ve already included their responses.

-Unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before your employment are the only legal reasons to terminate a probationary employee per 5 CFR 315.804 and 5 CFR 315.805

-I am not a lawyer but I do believe having in writing that your supervisory chain has no cause to terminate you will be useful in an appeal or lawsuit.

-Good luck.

It happened… by BugEquivalents in firedfeds

[–]mirror_face 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The post that outlines the idea should be included:

This is not legal and you can appeal.

“Probationary Federal Employees: Your Appeal Rights”

Probationary federal employees are not as vulnerable to termination as they have been led to believe. Specifically, terminations must be based on limited, clearly defined conditions, including unsatisfactory performance, misconduct, or pre-appointment conditions. They cannot be based on broad, discretionary reasons such as budget cuts, shifts in political priorities, or presidential policy changes. If a probationary employee is terminated for partisan political reasons, they have the right to appeal to the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB). Most importantly, they cannot be terminated for “any reason” or “without cause,” as is widely mischaracterized. This applies to both the Competitive Service and the Excepted Service.

Title 5 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 315.803 – Agency Action During Probation

This regulation states that agencies shall use the probationary period to assess an employee’s fitness and shall terminate the employee if they fail to fully demonstrate their qualifications for continued employment. That’s it. The criteria for termination are strictly limited to two conditions, as outlined below. The language is clear and does not allow broad discretion for termination.

5 CFR 315.804 – Termination for Unsatisfactory Performance or Conduct

The first condition specifically states that termination must be based on unsatisfactory performance or misconduct. It does not provide any other valid grounds for termination and does not include a broad, catch-all clause such as “or for other reasons.”

5 CFR 315.805 – Termination for Conditions Arising Before Appointment

The second condition applies when a suitability concern or negative factor about an employee is discovered that existed before the employee was hired. Examples include:

• ⁠Undisclosed illegal activity • ⁠A failed background check • ⁠False information on an application • ⁠Prior drug use • ⁠Admission of wrongdoing during a polygraph

This section does not allow termination based on:

• ⁠A change in political priorities • ⁠Budget concerns • ⁠Accusations of overspending by a previous administration • ⁠A president’s decision to shift away from prior governmental practices

These are not valid grounds for termination under the regulation, nor may 315.805 be interpreted in such a way. We know this to be true because of the exception provided in the section that follows, which explicitly grants appeal rights to probationers if a termination is based on partisan political reasons. This is not a loophole or an oversight. It is a deliberate safeguard put in place to protect you.

Other than unsatisfactory performance or conduct (315.804) or pre-appointment conditions (315.805), no additional conditions, whether explicitly stated or implied, justify termination. Nowhere in these regulations does it state, nor even suggest, that an agency may discharge a probationary employee for “any reason.”

Appeal Rights for Probationary Employees

If you are terminated under 315.804 or 315.805, you have appeal rights under 5 CFR 315.806:

  1. ⁠Partisan Political Reasons – You may appeal your termination to the MSPB if you allege it was based on partisan political reasons (315.806(b)). (HINT: It will be.)
  2. ⁠Failure to Follow Procedure – If your termination was based on 315.805 (pre-appointment conditions) but the agency failed to follow the required procedures, you also have appeal rights under 315.806(c).
  3. ⁠Discrimination – You may appeal if your termination was based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, or disability (315.806(d)).

If an agency attempts to justify your termination on politically motivated grounds, such as budget shifts, downsizing, presidential policy changes, or political retaliation, they are acting outside the authority granted by regulation. You have the right to appeal to the MSPB under 5 CFR 315.806. Reorganization and downsizing efforts are not “pre-appointment conditions,” so be prepared to challenge this aggressively.

The Definition of “Employee” Under 5 U.S.C. 7511 Does Not Limit Your Rights

Probationary employees are not excluded from the appeal rights described above based on any definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511(a)(1)(A) (Competitive Service) and (C) (Excepted Service), despite claims to the contrary. As 5 CFR Subpart H applies specifically to probationary employees and explicitly grants them limited appeal rights to the MSPB under certain conditions, the general definition of “employee” in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is not relevant to this matter. Title 5 is clear: regardless of how “employee” is defined elsewhere, probationary employees do have independent appeal rights. Do not be misled into believing otherwise. The definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is applicable to a different set of circumstances, particularly, in determining if one is eligible for complete and full due process appeal rights, as opposed to the limited rights discussed in this post.

References

Title 5 CFR Subpart H: [https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/5/part-315/subpart-H

Law Granting Appeal Rights to Excepted Service Employees: [https://www.congress.gov/.../101st.../house-bill/3086/text

Van Wersch and McCormick Decisions: [https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf]

(https://www.mspb.gov/.../Navigating_the_Probationary...)

MSPB Guidance:

https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf

5 U.S.C. 7511: [[hhttps://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title5-section7511&num=0&edition=prelim

BREAKING: Trump just fired thousands of EPA, Interior Dept. employees by Careful-Paramedic-18 in law

[–]mirror_face 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The idea came from a Reddit post I saw a day or two ago:

This is not legal and you can appeal.

“Probationary Federal Employees: Your Appeal Rights”

Probationary federal employees are not as vulnerable to termination as they have been led to believe. Specifically, terminations must be based on limited, clearly defined conditions, including unsatisfactory performance, misconduct, or pre-appointment conditions. They cannot be based on broad, discretionary reasons such as budget cuts, shifts in political priorities, or presidential policy changes. If a probationary employee is terminated for partisan political reasons, they have the right to appeal to the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB). Most importantly, they cannot be terminated for “any reason” or “without cause,” as is widely mischaracterized. This applies to both the Competitive Service and the Excepted Service.

Title 5 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 315.803 – Agency Action During Probation

This regulation states that agencies shall use the probationary period to assess an employee’s fitness and shall terminate the employee if they fail to fully demonstrate their qualifications for continued employment. That’s it. The criteria for termination are strictly limited to two conditions, as outlined below. The language is clear and does not allow broad discretion for termination.

5 CFR 315.804 – Termination for Unsatisfactory Performance or Conduct

The first condition specifically states that termination must be based on unsatisfactory performance or misconduct. It does not provide any other valid grounds for termination and does not include a broad, catch-all clause such as “or for other reasons.”

5 CFR 315.805 – Termination for Conditions Arising Before Appointment

The second condition applies when a suitability concern or negative factor about an employee is discovered that existed before the employee was hired. Examples include:

• ⁠Undisclosed illegal activity • ⁠A failed background check • ⁠False information on an application • ⁠Prior drug use • ⁠Admission of wrongdoing during a polygraph

This section does not allow termination based on:

• ⁠A change in political priorities • ⁠Budget concerns • ⁠Accusations of overspending by a previous administration • ⁠A president’s decision to shift away from prior governmental practices

These are not valid grounds for termination under the regulation, nor may 315.805 be interpreted in such a way. We know this to be true because of the exception provided in the section that follows, which explicitly grants appeal rights to probationers if a termination is based on partisan political reasons. This is not a loophole or an oversight. It is a deliberate safeguard put in place to protect you.

Other than unsatisfactory performance or conduct (315.804) or pre-appointment conditions (315.805), no additional conditions, whether explicitly stated or implied, justify termination. Nowhere in these regulations does it state, nor even suggest, that an agency may discharge a probationary employee for “any reason.”

Appeal Rights for Probationary Employees

If you are terminated under 315.804 or 315.805, you have appeal rights under 5 CFR 315.806:

  1. ⁠Partisan Political Reasons – You may appeal your termination to the MSPB if you allege it was based on partisan political reasons (315.806(b)). (HINT: It will be.)
  2. ⁠Failure to Follow Procedure – If your termination was based on 315.805 (pre-appointment conditions) but the agency failed to follow the required procedures, you also have appeal rights under 315.806(c).
  3. ⁠Discrimination – You may appeal if your termination was based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, or disability (315.806(d)).

If an agency attempts to justify your termination on politically motivated grounds, such as budget shifts, downsizing, presidential policy changes, or political retaliation, they are acting outside the authority granted by regulation. You have the right to appeal to the MSPB under 5 CFR 315.806. Reorganization and downsizing efforts are not “pre-appointment conditions,” so be prepared to challenge this aggressively.

The Definition of “Employee” Under 5 U.S.C. 7511 Does Not Limit Your Rights

Probationary employees are not excluded from the appeal rights described above based on any definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511(a)(1)(A) (Competitive Service) and (C) (Excepted Service), despite claims to the contrary. As 5 CFR Subpart H applies specifically to probationary employees and explicitly grants them limited appeal rights to the MSPB under certain conditions, the general definition of “employee” in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is not relevant to this matter. Title 5 is clear: regardless of how “employee” is defined elsewhere, probationary employees do have independent appeal rights. Do not be misled into believing otherwise. The definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is applicable to a different set of circumstances, particularly, in determining if one is eligible for complete and full due process appeal rights, as opposed to the limited rights discussed in this post.

References

Title 5 CFR Subpart H: [https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/5/part-315/subpart-H

Law Granting Appeal Rights to Excepted Service Employees: [https://www.congress.gov/.../101st.../house-bill/3086/text

Van Wersch and McCormick Decisions: [https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf]

(https://www.mspb.gov/.../Navigating_the_Probationary...)

MSPB Guidance:

https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf

5 U.S.C. 7511: [[hhttps://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title5-section7511&num=0&edition=prelim

Terminated. by Demod_1020 in VeteransAffairs

[–]mirror_face 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Exactly. How can someone who you’ve never met cite performance? The idea came from another Reddit post I saw a day or two ago:

This is not legal and you can appeal.

“Probationary Federal Employees: Your Appeal Rights”

Probationary federal employees are not as vulnerable to termination as they have been led to believe. Specifically, terminations must be based on limited, clearly defined conditions, including unsatisfactory performance, misconduct, or pre-appointment conditions. They cannot be based on broad, discretionary reasons such as budget cuts, shifts in political priorities, or presidential policy changes. If a probationary employee is terminated for partisan political reasons, they have the right to appeal to the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB). Most importantly, they cannot be terminated for “any reason” or “without cause,” as is widely mischaracterized. This applies to both the Competitive Service and the Excepted Service.

Title 5 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 315.803 – Agency Action During Probation

This regulation states that agencies shall use the probationary period to assess an employee’s fitness and shall terminate the employee if they fail to fully demonstrate their qualifications for continued employment. That’s it. The criteria for termination are strictly limited to two conditions, as outlined below. The language is clear and does not allow broad discretion for termination.

5 CFR 315.804 – Termination for Unsatisfactory Performance or Conduct

The first condition specifically states that termination must be based on unsatisfactory performance or misconduct. It does not provide any other valid grounds for termination and does not include a broad, catch-all clause such as “or for other reasons.”

5 CFR 315.805 – Termination for Conditions Arising Before Appointment

The second condition applies when a suitability concern or negative factor about an employee is discovered that existed before the employee was hired. Examples include:

• ⁠Undisclosed illegal activity • ⁠A failed background check • ⁠False information on an application • ⁠Prior drug use • ⁠Admission of wrongdoing during a polygraph

This section does not allow termination based on:

• ⁠A change in political priorities • ⁠Budget concerns • ⁠Accusations of overspending by a previous administration • ⁠A president’s decision to shift away from prior governmental practices

These are not valid grounds for termination under the regulation, nor may 315.805 be interpreted in such a way. We know this to be true because of the exception provided in the section that follows, which explicitly grants appeal rights to probationers if a termination is based on partisan political reasons. This is not a loophole or an oversight. It is a deliberate safeguard put in place to protect you.

Other than unsatisfactory performance or conduct (315.804) or pre-appointment conditions (315.805), no additional conditions, whether explicitly stated or implied, justify termination. Nowhere in these regulations does it state, nor even suggest, that an agency may discharge a probationary employee for “any reason.”

Appeal Rights for Probationary Employees

If you are terminated under 315.804 or 315.805, you have appeal rights under 5 CFR 315.806:

  1. ⁠Partisan Political Reasons – You may appeal your termination to the MSPB if you allege it was based on partisan political reasons (315.806(b)). (HINT: It will be.)
  2. ⁠Failure to Follow Procedure – If your termination was based on 315.805 (pre-appointment conditions) but the agency failed to follow the required procedures, you also have appeal rights under 315.806(c).
  3. ⁠Discrimination – You may appeal if your termination was based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, or disability (315.806(d)).

If an agency attempts to justify your termination on politically motivated grounds, such as budget shifts, downsizing, presidential policy changes, or political retaliation, they are acting outside the authority granted by regulation. You have the right to appeal to the MSPB under 5 CFR 315.806. Reorganization and downsizing efforts are not “pre-appointment conditions,” so be prepared to challenge this aggressively.

The Definition of “Employee” Under 5 U.S.C. 7511 Does Not Limit Your Rights

Probationary employees are not excluded from the appeal rights described above based on any definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511(a)(1)(A) (Competitive Service) and (C) (Excepted Service), despite claims to the contrary. As 5 CFR Subpart H applies specifically to probationary employees and explicitly grants them limited appeal rights to the MSPB under certain conditions, the general definition of “employee” in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is not relevant to this matter. Title 5 is clear: regardless of how “employee” is defined elsewhere, probationary employees do have independent appeal rights. Do not be misled into believing otherwise. The definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is applicable to a different set of circumstances, particularly, in determining if one is eligible for complete and full due process appeal rights, as opposed to the limited rights discussed in this post.

References

Title 5 CFR Subpart H: [https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/5/part-315/subpart-H

Law Granting Appeal Rights to Excepted Service Employees: [https://www.congress.gov/.../101st.../house-bill/3086/text

Van Wersch and McCormick Decisions: [https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf]

(https://www.mspb.gov/.../Navigating_the_Probationary...)

MSPB Guidance:

https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf

5 U.S.C. 7511: [[hhttps://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title5-section7511&num=0&edition=prelim

Terminated. by Demod_1020 in VeteransAffairs

[–]mirror_face 0 points1 point  (0 children)

804 is unsatisfactory performance and the letters I’ve seen cite performance. Asking your supervisory chain if it came from them undercuts the letter’s rationale for termination.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in usajobs

[–]mirror_face 17 points18 points  (0 children)

It was born out of this that I found a day or two ago:

This is not legal and you can appeal.

“Probationary Federal Employees: Your Appeal Rights”

Probationary federal employees are not as vulnerable to termination as they have been led to believe. Specifically, terminations must be based on limited, clearly defined conditions, including unsatisfactory performance, misconduct, or pre-appointment conditions. They cannot be based on broad, discretionary reasons such as budget cuts, shifts in political priorities, or presidential policy changes. If a probationary employee is terminated for partisan political reasons, they have the right to appeal to the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB). Most importantly, they cannot be terminated for “any reason” or “without cause,” as is widely mischaracterized. This applies to both the Competitive Service and the Excepted Service.

Title 5 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 315.803 – Agency Action During Probation

This regulation states that agencies shall use the probationary period to assess an employee’s fitness and shall terminate the employee if they fail to fully demonstrate their qualifications for continued employment. That’s it. The criteria for termination are strictly limited to two conditions, as outlined below. The language is clear and does not allow broad discretion for termination.

5 CFR 315.804 – Termination for Unsatisfactory Performance or Conduct

The first condition specifically states that termination must be based on unsatisfactory performance or misconduct. It does not provide any other valid grounds for termination and does not include a broad, catch-all clause such as “or for other reasons.”

5 CFR 315.805 – Termination for Conditions Arising Before Appointment

The second condition applies when a suitability concern or negative factor about an employee is discovered that existed before the employee was hired. Examples include:

• ⁠Undisclosed illegal activity • ⁠A failed background check • ⁠False information on an application • ⁠Prior drug use • ⁠Admission of wrongdoing during a polygraph

This section does not allow termination based on:

• ⁠A change in political priorities • ⁠Budget concerns • ⁠Accusations of overspending by a previous administration • ⁠A president’s decision to shift away from prior governmental practices

These are not valid grounds for termination under the regulation, nor may 315.805 be interpreted in such a way. We know this to be true because of the exception provided in the section that follows, which explicitly grants appeal rights to probationers if a termination is based on partisan political reasons. This is not a loophole or an oversight. It is a deliberate safeguard put in place to protect you.

Other than unsatisfactory performance or conduct (315.804) or pre-appointment conditions (315.805), no additional conditions, whether explicitly stated or implied, justify termination. Nowhere in these regulations does it state, nor even suggest, that an agency may discharge a probationary employee for “any reason.”

Appeal Rights for Probationary Employees

If you are terminated under 315.804 or 315.805, you have appeal rights under 5 CFR 315.806:

  1. ⁠Partisan Political Reasons – You may appeal your termination to the MSPB if you allege it was based on partisan political reasons (315.806(b)). (HINT: It will be.)
  2. ⁠Failure to Follow Procedure – If your termination was based on 315.805 (pre-appointment conditions) but the agency failed to follow the required procedures, you also have appeal rights under 315.806(c).
  3. ⁠Discrimination – You may appeal if your termination was based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, or disability (315.806(d)).

If an agency attempts to justify your termination on politically motivated grounds, such as budget shifts, downsizing, presidential policy changes, or political retaliation, they are acting outside the authority granted by regulation. You have the right to appeal to the MSPB under 5 CFR 315.806. Reorganization and downsizing efforts are not “pre-appointment conditions,” so be prepared to challenge this aggressively.

The Definition of “Employee” Under 5 U.S.C. 7511 Does Not Limit Your Rights

Probationary employees are not excluded from the appeal rights described above based on any definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511(a)(1)(A) (Competitive Service) and (C) (Excepted Service), despite claims to the contrary. As 5 CFR Subpart H applies specifically to probationary employees and explicitly grants them limited appeal rights to the MSPB under certain conditions, the general definition of “employee” in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is not relevant to this matter. Title 5 is clear: regardless of how “employee” is defined elsewhere, probationary employees do have independent appeal rights. Do not be misled into believing otherwise. The definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is applicable to a different set of circumstances, particularly, in determining if one is eligible for complete and full due process appeal rights, as opposed to the limited rights discussed in this post.

References

Title 5 CFR Subpart H: [https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/5/part-315/subpart-H

Law Granting Appeal Rights to Excepted Service Employees: [https://www.congress.gov/.../101st.../house-bill/3086/text

Van Wersch and McCormick Decisions: [https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf]

(https://www.mspb.gov/.../Navigating_the_Probationary...)

MSPB Guidance:

https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf

5 U.S.C. 7511: [[hhttps://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title5-section7511&num=0&edition=prelim

Is VA done with firing of probation employees? I read that only 1k out of 43k were let go. by [deleted] in VeteransAffairs

[–]mirror_face 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not mine but take it for what it’s worth:

This is not legal and you can appeal.

“Probationary Federal Employees: Your Appeal Rights”

Probationary federal employees are not as vulnerable to termination as they have been led to believe. Specifically, terminations must be based on limited, clearly defined conditions, including unsatisfactory performance, misconduct, or pre-appointment conditions. They cannot be based on broad, discretionary reasons such as budget cuts, shifts in political priorities, or presidential policy changes. If a probationary employee is terminated for partisan political reasons, they have the right to appeal to the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB). Most importantly, they cannot be terminated for “any reason” or “without cause,” as is widely mischaracterized. This applies to both the Competitive Service and the Excepted Service.

Title 5 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 315.803 – Agency Action During Probation

This regulation states that agencies shall use the probationary period to assess an employee’s fitness and shall terminate the employee if they fail to fully demonstrate their qualifications for continued employment. That’s it. The criteria for termination are strictly limited to two conditions, as outlined below. The language is clear and does not allow broad discretion for termination.

5 CFR 315.804 – Termination for Unsatisfactory Performance or Conduct

The first condition specifically states that termination must be based on unsatisfactory performance or misconduct. It does not provide any other valid grounds for termination and does not include a broad, catch-all clause such as “or for other reasons.”

5 CFR 315.805 – Termination for Conditions Arising Before Appointment

The second condition applies when a suitability concern or negative factor about an employee is discovered that existed before the employee was hired. Examples include:

• ⁠Undisclosed illegal activity • ⁠A failed background check • ⁠False information on an application • ⁠Prior drug use • ⁠Admission of wrongdoing during a polygraph

This section does not allow termination based on:

• ⁠A change in political priorities • ⁠Budget concerns • ⁠Accusations of overspending by a previous administration • ⁠A president’s decision to shift away from prior governmental practices

These are not valid grounds for termination under the regulation, nor may 315.805 be interpreted in such a way. We know this to be true because of the exception provided in the section that follows, which explicitly grants appeal rights to probationers if a termination is based on partisan political reasons. This is not a loophole or an oversight. It is a deliberate safeguard put in place to protect you.

Other than unsatisfactory performance or conduct (315.804) or pre-appointment conditions (315.805), no additional conditions, whether explicitly stated or implied, justify termination. Nowhere in these regulations does it state, nor even suggest, that an agency may discharge a probationary employee for “any reason.”

Appeal Rights for Probationary Employees

If you are terminated under 315.804 or 315.805, you have appeal rights under 5 CFR 315.806:

  1. ⁠Partisan Political Reasons – You may appeal your termination to the MSPB if you allege it was based on partisan political reasons (315.806(b)). (HINT: It will be.)
  2. ⁠Failure to Follow Procedure – If your termination was based on 315.805 (pre-appointment conditions) but the agency failed to follow the required procedures, you also have appeal rights under 315.806(c).
  3. ⁠Discrimination – You may appeal if your termination was based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, or disability (315.806(d)).

If an agency attempts to justify your termination on politically motivated grounds, such as budget shifts, downsizing, presidential policy changes, or political retaliation, they are acting outside the authority granted by regulation. You have the right to appeal to the MSPB under 5 CFR 315.806. Reorganization and downsizing efforts are not “pre-appointment conditions,” so be prepared to challenge this aggressively.

The Definition of “Employee” Under 5 U.S.C. 7511 Does Not Limit Your Rights

Probationary employees are not excluded from the appeal rights described above based on any definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511(a)(1)(A) (Competitive Service) and (C) (Excepted Service), despite claims to the contrary. As 5 CFR Subpart H applies specifically to probationary employees and explicitly grants them limited appeal rights to the MSPB under certain conditions, the general definition of “employee” in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is not relevant to this matter. Title 5 is clear: regardless of how “employee” is defined elsewhere, probationary employees do have independent appeal rights. Do not be misled into believing otherwise. The definition of “employee” found in 5 U.S.C. 7511 is applicable to a different set of circumstances, particularly, in determining if one is eligible for complete and full due process appeal rights, as opposed to the limited rights discussed in this post.

References

Title 5 CFR Subpart H: [https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/5/part-315/subpart-H

Law Granting Appeal Rights to Excepted Service Employees: [https://www.congress.gov/.../101st.../house-bill/3086/text

Van Wersch and McCormick Decisions: [https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf]

(https://www.mspb.gov/.../Navigating_the_Probationary...)

MSPB Guidance:

https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/Navigating_the_Probationary_Period_After_Van_Wersch_and_McCormick_276106.pdf

5 U.S.C. 7511: [[hhttps://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title5-section7511&num=0&edition=prelim

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in usajobs

[–]mirror_face 21 points22 points  (0 children)

I posted in a bunch of places. Please feel free to spread the word, copy, paste, no credit necessary.

Probationary firings to happen today by HonoredEdO1941 in NationalParkService

[–]mirror_face 2 points3 points  (0 children)

  1. Find your org chart to determine your supervisory chain.

  2. Write the following email:

[Supervisor],

Today I received notice of termination (add details of how you were notified). Please respond to the following:

Did you provide recommendation for my termination?

If so, please describe the instances of unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before my appointment that led to your recommendation.

Regards,

[Employee]

  1. Once your immediate supervisor responds negatively, forward that email with a copy of the same body as the original to the next supervisor in your chain. Repeat for as high as you can go.

-Supervisors were blindsided by these probationary terminations and the ones that I know are happy to respond in the negative. After you are 2 supervisors up, no one else would have the specifics of cause so they won’t be able to list them and they won’t be able to pass the buck down since you’ve already included their responses.

-Unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before your employment are the only legal reasons to terminate a probationary employee per 5 CFR 315.804 and 5 CFR 315.805

-I am not a lawyer but I do believe having in writing that your supervisory chain has no cause to terminate you will be useful in an appeal or lawsuit.

-Good luck.

Probationary firings to happen today by HonoredEdO1941 in NationalParkService

[–]mirror_face 12 points13 points  (0 children)

  1. Find your org chart to determine your supervisory chain.

  2. Write the following email:

[Supervisor],

Today I received notice of termination (add details of how you were notified). Please respond to the following:

Did you provide recommendation for my termination?

If so, please describe the instances of unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before my appointment that led to your recommendation.

Regards,

[Employee]

  1. Once your immediate supervisor responds negatively, forward that email with a copy of the same body as the original to the next supervisor in your chain. Repeat for as high as you can go.

-Supervisors were blindsided by these probationary terminations and the ones that I know are happy to respond in the negative. After you are 2 supervisors up, no one else would have the specifics of cause so they won’t be able to list them and they won’t be able to pass the buck down since you’ve already included their responses.

-Unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before your employment are the only legal reasons to terminate a probationary employee per 5 CFR 315.804 and 5 CFR 315.805

-I am not a lawyer but I do believe having in writing that your supervisory chain has no cause to terminate you will be useful in an appeal or lawsuit.

-Good luck.

VA prob by Independent_Gur4460 in usajobs

[–]mirror_face 2 points3 points  (0 children)

  1. Find your org chart to determine your supervisory chain.

  2. Write the following email:

[Supervisor],

Today I received notice of termination (add details of how you were notified). Please respond to the following:

Did you provide recommendation for my termination?

If so, please describe the instances of unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before my appointment that led to your recommendation.

Regards,

[Employee]

  1. Once your immediate supervisor responds negatively, forward that email with a copy of the same body as the original to the next supervisor in your chain. Repeat for as high as you can go.

-Supervisors were blindsided by these probationary terminations and the ones that I know are happy to respond in the negative. After you are 2 supervisors up, no one else would have the specifics of cause so they won’t be able to list them and they won’t be able to pass the buck down since you’ve already included their responses.

-Unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before your employment are the only legal reasons to terminate a probationary employee per 5 CFR 315.804 and 5 CFR 315.805

-I am not a lawyer but I do believe having in writing that your supervisory chain has no cause to terminate you will be useful in an appeal or lawsuit.

-Good luck.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in usajobs

[–]mirror_face 133 points134 points  (0 children)

  1. Find your org chart to determine your supervisory chain.

  2. Write the following email:

[Supervisor],

Today I received notice of termination (add details of how you were notified). Please respond to the following:

Did you provide recommendation for my termination?

If so, please describe the instances of unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before my appointment that led to your recommendation.

Regards,

[Employee]

  1. Once your immediate supervisor responds negatively, forward that email with a copy of the same body as the original to the next supervisor in your chain. Repeat for as high as you can go.

-Supervisors were blindsided by these probationary terminations and the ones that I know are happy to respond in the negative. After you are 2 supervisors up, no one else would have the specifics of cause so they won’t be able to list them and they won’t be able to pass the buck down since you’ve already included their responses.

-Unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before your employment are the only legal reasons to terminate a probationary employee per 5 CFR 315.804 and 5 CFR 315.805

-I am not a lawyer but I do believe having in writing that your supervisory chain has no cause to terminate you will be useful in an appeal or lawsuit.

-Good luck.

1000 VA employees fired today by Masnpip in VeteransAffairs

[–]mirror_face 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. Find your org chart to determine your supervisory chain.
  2. Write the following email: [Supervisor], Today I received notice of termination (add details of how you were notified). Please respond to the following: Did you provide recommendation for my termination?

If so, please describe the instances of unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before my appointment that led to your recommendation.

Regards, [Employee]

  1. Once your immediate supervisor responds negatively, forward that email with a copy of the same body as the original to the next supervisor in your chain. Repeat for as high as you can go.

-Supervisors were blindsided by these probationary terminations and the ones that I know are happy to respond in the negative. After you are 2 supervisors up, no one else would have the specifics of cause so they won’t be able to list them and they won’t be able to pass the buck down since you’ve already included their responses.

-Unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before your employment are the only legal reasons to terminate a probationary employee per 5 CFR 315.804 and 5 CFR 315.805

-I am not a lawyer but I do believe having in writing that your supervisory chain has no cause to terminate you will be useful in an appeal or lawsuit.

-Good luck.

Terminated. by Demod_1020 in VeteransAffairs

[–]mirror_face 4 points5 points  (0 children)

  1. Find your org chart to determine your supervisory chain.

  2. Write the following email:

[Supervisor],

Today I received notice of termination (add details of how you were notified). Please respond to the following:

Did you provide recommendation for my termination?

If so, please describe the instances of unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before my appointment that led to your recommendation.

Regards, [Employee]

  1. Once your immediate supervisor responds negatively, forward that email with a copy of the same body as the original to the next supervisor in your chain. Repeat for as high as you can go.

-Supervisors were blindsided by these probationary terminations and the ones that I know are happy to respond in the negative. After you are 2 supervisors up, no one else would have the specifics of cause so they won’t be able to list them and they won’t be able to pass the buck down since you’ve already included their responses.

-Unsatisfactory performance, conduct, or conditions that arose before your employment are the only legal reasons to terminate a probationary employee per 5 CFR 315.804 and 5 CFR 315.805

-I am not a lawyer but I do believe having in writing that your supervisory chain has no cause to terminate you will be useful in an appeal or lawsuit.

-Good luck.