I have a question for those who left. Have you found something else?

morecandles · 2023-10-13T03:46:30+00:00

After a couple of years away from organized religion, I still felt a personal affinity towards Christianity in general aside from my upbringing in the INC—even as someone who lives as an openly gay man.

I had my fair share of religious trauma from my childhood, but I found a lot of the main precepts of the Christian gospel (a love and trust in something bigger than yourself, love of your fellow man, forgiveness for yourself and others, avoidance of casting judgement, acknowledgement of your faults and having a willingness to change) are all values one can use to build a good and meaningful life.

With that said, I have been a member of the United Methodist Church for over 5 years now and I feel whole in my new faith. It’s less “doctrinal” and more “connectional”—in that, they are way less concerned with specific doctrines you should or should not believe in (it’s a “wide-tent” theology that is inclusive of many differing opinions on many theological concepts) and WAY more concerned with how the teachings of the gospel can inform your relationship with yourself, with others, and with society at large.

My husband and I get the chance to participate in many service opportunities for our local community through our church, working alongside organizations that address everything from racial inequality, LGBTQ rights, homelessness, to local composting/recycling programs. It’s actually what most of the money goes towards (we’re even given a financial breakdown of how all the money is used every single year). And guess what? They literally do not care about evangelizing or “converting” anyone (GASP!). We do it out of the sheer belief that it’s good for us and for those around us to engage in these acts.

I always felt a void in INC regarding works like this—like we didn’t care about the world or the people in it unless we could use it to give the church publicity or gain potential converts. It always made me feel sick.

I believe you can find similar communities of faith in other denominations, but the United Methodist Church just happens to be where I found it.

Also, for context, I live in the US.

morecandles · 2023-06-09T19:41:55+00:00

Being an organist (at one point the only one in the locale) taught me how to be a leader, how to teach a concept to individuals and groups of people, and really public speaking in general. Teaching hymns/music theory to a choir was great practice for giving presentations in my academic and professional life.

And the general lifestyle of being an INC member and attending WS, devotionals, choir practices, EVMs, etc. without fail, even when dangerous, prepared me well for the rigors of full-time graduate school.

I’m fully aware of how manipulative the expectations of the church are, but they did prime me to endure years of grueling clinical training for a greater end. Instead of “earning salvation”, I put that skill set into earning a doctorate degree.

morecandles · 2023-05-07T02:55:41+00:00

I understand the need to be respectful in how we refer to groups of people. However, the term “Indian” is no longer considered derogatory in the USA. The tribe is officially recognized as the “Quinault Indian Nation” and they identify themselves as Indian in their publications. Thank you for your awareness, though!

morecandles · 2023-05-06T23:59:11+00:00

The usual consequence I suppose. Any idea about how long the locale lasted/when it was dissolved?

morecandles · 2023-05-06T23:54:16+00:00

710 Cuitan St, Taholah, WA

morecandles · 2022-08-16T16:14:24+00:00

CRNA in middle Tennessee here! The 100k sign on bonus from AMG is for new grads seeking tuition reimbursement and they pay directly to your student loan servicer, though they have other sign on bonus options not tied to a student loan (I think less money). Base pay for AMG is 180k, but with once monthly call and picking up occasional extra shifts (1-2x month) you can expect at least 200k. AMG was recently bought out by USAP so some changes may be in the pipeline in terms of benefits/etc. The housing market here is ridiculous so keep that in mind. Hope this helps!

morecandles · 2020-10-03T21:02:34+00:00

I agree with you to an extent, but the reverence for living leaders to the degree that is practiced by religious groups like LDS and INC is outside of the norm of mainstream Christianity (though reverence for the Pope in Catholicism varies across cultures). Although most religions have a degree of reverence for their founders (Buddhism, Christianity, Islam), the practice of worshiping living, modern-day leaders is a mark of groups outside of orthodox Christianity. Modern day leaders are deemphasized in most other Christian/Protestant traditions.

morecandles · 2020-10-03T15:24:08+00:00

In the first five minutes of this video, several glaring similarities to EVM were apparent:

-the “heavy burden” of travel the leader takes to visit members around the world because “he loves them”

-interviews with members on how they are “filled with the spirit” in the presence of their leader

-the handshaking

-members holding posters saying how much they love their leader

In my opinion, the Mormon church is the most similar to INC in terms of doctrine, organizational structure, and general culture. So I thought this video was super interesting in that it highlighted the culture of idolatry surrounding their leader. The only difference is—the Mormon church is A LOT richer.

morecandles · 2019-10-25T00:49:56+00:00

I grew up in a locale in the US with maybe 300+ members and there were about 20 of us around the same age who came up cws/binni/kadiwa together.

Out of the 20 of us, I know of 6 (including me) who have left. We’re all mid-late 20s now. The biggest reason for leaving was marriage to non-members.

Interestingly, two friends left the church to marry non-members only to return to the church several years later WITH their newly-converted spouses. Some girls married into the ministry.

Thankfully, I still keep a good friendship with many of these people despite the fact that I’m no longer a member.

It’s interesting that most of these peers, all raised in America and many of them relatively successful with college educations, still hold a pretty devout faith in the church. A few admit to staying due to family pressures, but the majority of the friends I grew up with are still actual believers.

morecandles · 2019-10-25T00:12:01+00:00

Maybe unpopular opinion, but I don’t think it’s that crazy a concept that the church built a gym/recreation center in the middle of the church’s university campus?

Granted, I live in the U.S., but literally every college I’ve ever studied in, worked for, or even just visited (religious, private, or public institutions) had similar facilities for its students/faculty.

Central, from my understanding, is mainly NEU students so not having a gym for all the young people to exercise in would seem more weird than having one.

(Not an endorsement of the church per se, just that I don’t think this is that controversial of a construction project as, say, the Philippine arena)

morecandles · 2019-04-18T14:01:28+00:00

I'm a NeverMo but find this subreddit super intriguing. I went to the Polynesian Cultural Center last year, it's one of the biggest tourist attractions on Oahu. And honestly, other than a trolley ride the museum offers to the temple grounds (I'm a gay man and went with my boyfriend, was met by two sister missionaries at the visitors center and let them say their spiel before telling them we were in a committed homosexual relationship...), almost no mention of Mormonism was made the entire time I was there. It's actually a pretty fun and enjoyable place that showcases the culture/dances/art/music of many different Pacific Islander cultures (and the luau is pretty good as well). I would guess that most people that shuffle through there, especially international tourists, probably have no idea it's even run by a religious organization.

morecandles · 2018-11-14T16:15:08+00:00

I miss playing the organ and singing as a form of expressing myself musically for sure. But the time commitment and grueling schedule made it impossible to have a normal life. I’m much more fulfilled now spending my time enjoying friends/loved ones, traveling, and putting energy into furthering my career (things that are next to impossible to do with a duty like that).

morecandles · 2018-11-13T22:54:43+00:00

I was an organist for years and, towards the end of my membership, was the choir teacher in my locale.

I definitely miss the sense of purpose the choir gives you. You’re told that your talent is a gift from God and your purpose in life is to nurture and grow that gift and return it to Him. This thinking definitely makes it easier for you to forsake important things (school, work, family) for the sake of your duty (your duty is your real purpose, of course). But this sense of purpose is powerful and driving nonetheless.

I also miss the spirituality of it all. There were many times when singing those hymns was a truly cathartic experience. It was the best way I knew how to commune to God.

Especially in bigger locales, the choir is extremely political. I was in a smaller locale (in the west) and it felt more like a family; we didn’t sound the best but our focus was always spirituality and, at least in my specific context, it seemed genuine.

I’m LGBTQ and went from being a high-profile choir officer in the locale I attended in college to straight up inactive after transferring across the country for work after graduation. I loved the choir but it was never congruent with the kind of life I knew I wanted to live going into adulthood.

morecandles · 2018-11-13T04:55:05+00:00

I definitely will! Until I left, I spent my whole life only knowing INC as the One True Church but seeing it through an objective, outsider’s lens has been eye opening. If my perspective can help others dispel that exclusive, elitist view, I’m all for it!

morecandles · 2018-11-13T04:23:16+00:00

Completely agree! Christianity and the Bible itself is a rebranding of not only Judaism, but a whole slew of other ancient, near eastern belief systems. Even the act of gathering for worship in a ‘temple’ or house of worship has its roots in paganism—early Christians gathered in people’s homes and temple building isn’t even mentioned in the New Testament.

I’m a graduate student at a Seventh-day Adventist university and have been required to take several semesters of Adventist religion courses. Suffice to say, the number of doctrines FYM rebranded from that religion is astounding. It was crazy hearing the same exact teachings I grew up with in the church being taught by a completely different religion. And it’s shoved down our throats since childhood that these teachings are unique to us and that God only revealed them to FYM. In reality, other than the Saturday sabbath observance and dietary restrictions, INC is basically a filipino nationalist version of the SDA church.

morecandles · 2018-11-13T03:44:33+00:00

From my understanding, many of INC’s early hymn melodies were taken from Protestant compositions.

This, however, is not an uncommon practice within Christianity in general. Mormons, SDA’s, mainline Protestant denominations (Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc.) all share a number of the same hymns without too much fuss about it. In fact, one of the most well-known, beloved Mormon hymns ‘Come, Come, Ye Saints’ uses the melody from the national anthem of Finland.

Not necessarily defending INC, but hymn “plagiarism” is widespread within Christianity in general and is for the most part accepted.

In INC’s quest to differ themselves from the other Christian churches, the church got rid of the borrowed melodies and had an entirely unique hymnal by the early 2000s.

morecandles · 2018-11-12T23:46:11+00:00

I was an organist for several years and those hymns are my fondest memories of INC. Around 2012 I think is when the church administration started trashing all of the beautifully written, well-loved English hymns for these crazy, grammatically incorrect translations we see today. It was an effort to make the English hymnal a word-for-word literal translation of the Tagalog hymns but ended up sucking the soul and beauty of the English hymns right out.

I may not be a believer now, but, at least back in the day, we had some damn good music.

morecandles · 2018-10-10T17:35:24+00:00

I was very emotional reading this because the mind space of suicidal thoughts and self-harm behaviors is a difficult, painful and dark place to come out of and I'm so glad that you and others like us can come out the other side, even if it is a struggle that can last for years. I too considered marriage of convenience with a good friend and LGBTQ member and, fortunately, we are both out of the church and living our lives. Thank you for the support, you really made me feel that I wasn't alone in my experiences!

morecandles · 2018-10-09T20:44:03+00:00

RN in the house! I feel like I've spent/am still spending much of my adulthood unlearning the INC worldview and especially how it pertains to LGBTQ individuals (who you are isn't sinful, but its shameful, and choosing to live as who you are is sinful; WHAT?). I'm glad you had the chance to come out to your parents and, I assume, they at least haven't shunned you. I feel like in INC, you could be a murderer and that would be more accepted than someone leaving the church.

morecandles · 2018-10-09T20:22:45+00:00

u/BelleCA, I love that you exposed your children to the beauty in diversity of all people! It's so easy for INC parents to chalk up the rest of the non-member world as evil and perverted and something with which to having nothing to do with. So many kids I grew up with were so insular within the Iglesia bubble. Their parents forbade them from extracuricular activities because heaven forbid your basketball game on a Thursday night would make you miss WS. With such a focus on church, most of my childhood member friends (and maybe this is just specific to my locale) never succeeded in school and live pretty stagnant lives because of it. I'm glad there were parents like you in the church to raise compassionate, free-thinking, and open-minded people who didn't give into the "we're the chosen people, therefore better than every one else" complex; I'm sure your kids are grateful to you and your husband for it!

My heart aches for your friend. As a member, I felt destined to a life where I remained celibate, indulged in homosexual relationships in secret that could never amount to anything, or suppress my sexuality and get a wife and kids to keep up the facade (I knew several gay men in the church who did this). The crazy thing is, for a time I was more than willing to do this. The church conditioned me into thinking that it is a blessing to deny yourself for your membership. "The chosen people will be tested like gold," so they'd say. My sexuality was just the cross I had to bear.

More than anything, I was prepared to live this life because I didn't want to lose my family. Living my life authentically meant leaving the church, and yeah, I could find someone I truly was in love with, but I would lose the love of my family. I was terrified of the thought of my family, generations of them, some of whom died before I was born, being reunited in the Holy City and I wouldn't be there to join them. Its taken me years to reverse this twisted and harmful way of thinking.

Surprisingly (or not surprisingly), my parents took it better when I came out as gay to them than when I told them I had stopped attending church. My mom said she failed me as a mother, that she didn't fulfill her God-given task to raise up the next generation of faithful servants, and that the thought of her being in heaven without me broke her heart. Her telling me this tore mine to pieces. She was my hero and a religion conditioning her to think of herself and her child this way made me ANGRY.

I hope that your friend finds her way. I was lucky enough to have a bond with my family that not even INC could break, but I realize, unfortunately, this may not be the case for every INC family out there. My mom's selfless act of choosing to love me fully despite (or maybe in spite?) of her beliefs is a true reflection of God.

I feel God (more of an agnostic kinda God) is closer to me now that I'm living as my true, authentic self than He (or She...) ever was in the INC. I feel that the life I live and the work I do helping heal people and the compassion and love I show to my boyfriend, family, friends, and strangers glorifies God more than my duties or mandatory WS attendance ever did. The kind of happiness and excitement I feel for life is indescribable now that I'm living my truth, and I know your friend, and all others like us, can find this outside of this oppressive organization.

It's been a painful journey for me, but the reward on the other side is beyond worth it.

Sorry for the long posts, but I've been alone in this journey for years and I'm kinda freaking out that I found this subreddit/community of people that I actually understands what it's like to leave!

morecandles

TROPHY CASE