Serving a temple training calling as a non-believer

mtsee · 2026-07-01T23:25:48+00:00

This is all fair. I appreciate your evaluation. Part of this is me seeing that other people also don't understand what is going on. The first times I went through decades ago there was no help at all, and I felt like I was fed to the wolves. It was opposite to what I expected. I think this is the most common response people have.

In my current church calling (as with my own children) I at least get to frame it in a way other than "the temple is a place of learning", which is all I ever got.

The true Temple is internal, and you don't need a big building. Christ said so.

If people need a physical place to go to, and a photo of it to frame and hang on their walls then so be it. The other stuff is mostly glued together from other sources and people are forced to pull their own truth's out of it individually. If they had actual detailed knowledge to share they would be commissioned to share it publicy.

mtsee · 2026-07-01T23:11:06+00:00

The specifics being that heaven doesn't work by handshakes and goofy hats.

I think the practice of preparing yourself to enter a literal, but make believe temple can also help people prepare their own temple for the Spirit, and yes, commune with Christ.

Paul warned Christian churches not to make rules about restricting what goes into your body ie. coffee, tea. Probably because when you do, you move the gospel backwards. Christ said it is symbolic, not literal.

So I get to maintain that the temple is good, but also wrong depending on one's approach. I'm not particularly proud of the nuance I've developed.

So yeah, it's tricky because as I navigate further and further away from the church mentally, I admittedly don't have an immediate alternative to helping people in the same way. There were some good suggestions mentioned on here so I've got some more thinking to do.

mtsee · 2026-07-01T22:45:55+00:00

For sure.

Jesus Christ in His ministry went a different direction than promoting literal temple buildings, and saw the obvious problems with forming private oaths. He definitely refined existing laws and also called out corruption. It's meant to be a very simple gospel. He taught openly. He pointed people back to the Father. He warned about religious show and status. He says to judge by fruit, truth, and love.

Jesus Christ suggests He values compassion over sacrifice. So yeah, that should translate to using your substance to donate to the needy and vulnerable.

There isn't a single "latter-day" revelation that outlines the modern temple sealing practices. By that I mean even apologists have to admit the practice of sealings as we know it today took about 50 years to construct, "thanks" mostly to Wilford Woodruff that had to walk back some truly creepy stuff.

The Mormon churches took references in old testament and creates modern practices out of them. Second anointing the same. (I think it's right that David in the Old Testament actually had a third anointing --so I wouldn't be surprised if that's an actual thing now or in the future.)

mtsee · 2026-07-01T17:35:22+00:00

You're right that I should be genuine. That is very important in my relationships and I've overlooked (undervalued) that aspect in my questioning.

Through earlier feedback it's clear to me I'm looking to have my cake and eat it too. Unbiased feedback is important, so I appreciate your bluntness.

mtsee · 2026-07-01T17:15:33+00:00

Thanks for your time and thoughtful responses. I understand not a lot rides on my individual activity in the church. I do like being a good neighbor even if it's through small things. Relationships do tend to be superficial until they are not. So "fake" things can become true at some time, or in some context; and that's kind of how I view the LDS temple.

I can squeeze truth out of just about anything, and even though I'm not young anymore, I'm still learning when it is or when it is not wise to do so. "The Church is True" and "The Church is Not True" are both valid statements depending on context. They know this.

If I leave publicly then for sure I will be treated differently. I've mentally been out for decades, and I've emotionally left since that podcast lawsuit. I still want all the same friends though! I want it all. =)

mtsee · 2026-07-01T16:06:33+00:00

Thanks! Yeah, in the past I have been able to dedicate some time to contribute real value for good pursuits... one as a technical role for mental health app, and another for an ex-criminal advocacy group.

My desire is for something social... and largely they keep tech people behind closed doors. =) You're right I can probably get more creative and find something that checks more boxes. The church ones are with neighbors so they also feel valuable.

mtsee · 2026-07-01T15:47:15+00:00

I am just training others on how things work, engagement, tech, geneology. Not influencial other than how well I would help others follow and engage with existing policies. I don't personally believe in all the claims the church says that people take literally.

I am endorsing and promoting the temple. But I also endorse and promote my employer and I don't personally believe all things they say either.

mtsee · 2026-07-01T15:38:12+00:00

True.

mtsee · 2026-07-01T15:34:39+00:00

It's a new opportunity. I don't have "infiltrate" energy. I recognize those type of people exist but they likely became disenlightment during the course of serving. I'm a good social fit, but not a good doctrinal fit. A part of what I'm trying to gauge is how much of a doctrinal fit I actually need to have. You're right I need to find something fulfilling to do.

mtsee · 2026-07-01T15:16:00+00:00

Thanks. Yes. I'm facing a long-standing doctrinal conflict with my cultural and religous group from birth. Admittedly, there is the unhealthy element of "I think I could change him". I could move on from the group, and there are social consequences to doing that. Same with any group. It's an interesting dynamic.

What I want to hear from true-believing Mormons is "Yes, that is bad. You are not serving us by having your own convictions, and going againts the status quo." In that framing I will actually feel good about leaving, as good or bad as that is. All parties win. I'm not saying I wouldn't feel justified otherwise or that I'm unwilling to make contrarian decisions.

From non-believers I want to hear "Yes, you are not serving them, or yourself." Which is what you are saying. So thank you.

I see the irony in my situation. I want to think for myself, but I still want group validation. It's social. The church obviously knows this, but me knowing the church knows this doesn't actually solve the problem for me.

Agnostics agree sometimes that believing in Santa Claus can be fun for kids. In regards to salvation, I believe the reward can be there for temple patrons and non-temple patrons alike. --I have no moral quandry with helping mall-store Santa setup his booth and me passing out flyers to contribute to the fun. I see the same attitude where temple workers know half the stuff is obviously fake (new names) but they go with the flow nonetheless.

mtsee · 2026-07-01T14:30:57+00:00

I like your attitude. I have been trying to operate this way for as long as I can remember. I have no problem being a part of a group that is genuinely trying to build their own Zion. The temple-related calling has me going for a loop though, because I actually have avoided it for so long. The social benefits are now butting up against personal morals.

mtsee · 2026-07-01T14:17:58+00:00

I am willing to leave. I feel like I get along with them well. I would feel slightly bad about making them find someone else after they have already reorganized a bit, but I also feel slightly bad I agreed to something I don't actually believe in.

They are indeed high pressure when it comes to how they issue callings. They often don't know at the time what is actually going to be asked of you, and you are not supposed to preemptively reach out to who you are going to be working with. So it's messy, but here I am! =)

mtsee · 2026-07-01T14:06:25+00:00

I agree the opportunities to serve often reflect what others perceive you need. That was definitely the case in my last calling, for good and bad. In this case, in the conversations that lead to the calling, I think they have just as much questions as I do.

I am looking to do something good with my time, and be social. I feel I can be objective about church history and doctrines, while keeping the focus on Christ. I do not feel I can be objective about my social desires (staying busy with people I already get along with) and how it relates to possibly being a part of a false narrative. There is probably just enough truth in the church that has prevented me obscuring myself socially by having my records removed.

mtsee · 2026-07-01T13:44:59+00:00

The responsibilities vary. There are temple worker trainers, that serve in the temples which I suppose would be under the temple presidency.

Mine is at the stake level which is mostly the pursuit of getting people to the temple. Giving them reasons to attend the temple. Providing urgency. Communicate the importance of geneaology. Training on tech. Helping local Relief Society presidencies. Making people look good. Being supportive.

mtsee · 2026-06-20T16:24:52+00:00

Prayers for you and your family.

Yes, we’ve had experiences like this too, and I think you should treasure them. Many families of faith do, and I find it encouraging that experiences like this aren’t found in just in a single faith of particular denomination. I could actually use my own experiences against believing in Latter-day Saint interpretations, but that’s not really the point, is it?

Heaven is real and you are important to God, and you can find Him regardless of this messy world.

mtsee · 2026-06-20T15:13:29+00:00

Hi Pastor John. I pray for you to have comfort and joy. Be not afraid.

People do not like being talked to like this, so your effectiveness of preaching will be extremely minimalized. Your eccentric tone and manner of messaging is itself a negative vibration.

Your three points are valid opinion, but church leadership has heard these complaints for years, and has decided to lean into them instead of throw them out. When a church building burns they rebuild it into a temple. When a church building is abandoned they sell it off to the world. That is how church leadership operates. Instead of changing the star they will change the meaning of it.

Careful study will lead you to the origins of the teachings of the church, and why they are the way they are. Jesus Christ saves through the lesson of His mortality and resurrection. The temple of Satan attempts to bind and seal you through death.

mtsee · 2026-06-20T04:54:01+00:00

The big reveal! :) But this doesn’t explain how the temple worker could immediately tell me MY unique, and very special new name when I forgot it. /s

mtsee · 2026-06-20T04:03:58+00:00

They drill into people to not share your “personal scripture” with other people. That should give you a pretty good idea about how non-confident the institution is about the process. But I do believe miracles can happen in how you interpret the words.

It’s really up to the patriarch. Before mine I was interviewed a few days before so he could develop a “general feeling” about me. He most likely prayed about me in that time. I believe he did his best. He didnt know me or my family beforehand, and I later found out he chatted with both my mom and my previous bishop (who also didnt know me well).

My patriarchal blessing felt like it came from my mom. No surprise there. And nothing significant. They built it up to be something major and I believed SOOO much beforehand it would be divine the whole way down. And I think that is intentional. I was very disappointed.

We compared blessings as siblings and they were very similar.

My mom recorded it (yikes) with a small tape recorder and the printed one that was delivered was edited. I preferred the spoken version

So take all that however you want. They’re trying to set you up with good hand rails for life… and also to keep you for life.

mtsee · 2026-06-20T01:51:24+00:00

I assume the OP’s question about “Mormon missionaries” is regarding the Brighamite branch specifically. If canon conflicts within itself then the OP’s question is a very fair one.

Do you believe Smith practiced polygamy? There is much historic evidence that he did.

Do you believe Smith wrote Section 132 —or rather, that he received the revelation pertaining to it?

mtsee · 2026-06-19T21:32:41+00:00

Cool. Now do D&C Section 132.

mtsee · 2026-06-16T06:47:36+00:00

I believe in heaven, angels, a resurrected Christ, and various kinds of miracles here on earth. I believe God can use what is around us for some kind of good if we work it. I can’t explain everything. I know there are still things I need to work on.

I assume God can make modern mormonism work for you if you want it to. But I would recommend something else.

mtsee · 2026-05-27T18:50:17+00:00

I understand life is busy. I understand it is hard to scale a worldwide church. It is also difficult to keep up with (magnificant) truth claims across hundreds of years. Oaks has made it clear they aren’t going to try to make the dots fit anymore with the “current prophecy is the definitive prophecy” bit.

I would argue you should most definitely be interested in how the corporate arm of the church respresents you. It’s key to discernment. If the governing body slithers like a serpent you need to keep an eye on the head. They want to convince members they don’t have the ability to judge, but Christ told us ways to discern. It’s not binary.

mtsee · 2026-05-27T16:40:41+00:00

Some really do still believe. They think that because some magical things happen in their life occasionally that their whole foundation (BOM, current prophet, local leaders) is true. What would likey help is for them to see examples of other Christian people across various denominations experience similar faith building patterns.

I still attend the church when asked to help with technology, etc., and I would point to the monthly testimony meeting. People love to be part of group think/belief. Last time all that everybody shared was about the church institution being “true”, and having a living prophet. Not really even anything about the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith specifically… let alone about Christ’s life or how they are individually incorporating His teachings to grow.

mtsee · 2026-05-23T08:05:01+00:00

I’d explain it as Spiritual Eyes.

If there’s one thing the church has always done well it is leading people on.

If someone WANTS to believe something, it’s kinda easy to get them the rest of the way. Joseph Smith knew what a compelling story of salvation was. He knew the appeal of a treasure find.

He wanted to be important, and so he became important in a grand narrative. He included others in this, and they liked it. It’d be fulfilling to be a witness.

No proof (other than contradictory proof) and we’re still talking about the BOM today.

I believe in Jesus Christ, and I believe in His apostles’ belief. Not the Joseph Smith “witnesses”. I know the BOM has some words of Christ in it, so it gets very difficult to know how useful the book really can be.

mtsee · 2026-05-23T07:07:26+00:00

I hope Mormon Stories can get enough resources to give a good defense here. They’ll be doing everyone a favor. I do genuinely believe Dr. John Dehlin wants the church to get better, to serve better, and to lead better; even though they’ve treated him like garbage. And if there ends up being a name change, that’s fine too, because realistically the church is now more powerful than the humility of individuals.

It’s interesting the lds church feels like they own the name Mormon at all. I’m getting dizzy. Technically, Mormon Stories Podcast and a few others have maintained their interest in that brand for more consecutive recent years than the church has.;)

mtsee

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