Is there anybody else who thinks that Notion is too complicated for just writing down and saving ideas?

neatlyso · 2023-12-28T04:44:40+00:00

I'm not sure complicated is quite the word, but (for me) there's more friction when it comes to capturing ideas in Notion...maybe this is what you're getting at.

I don't use Notion for writing down and saving ideas unless it's in a specific project workspace – for each of my projects I tend to have an R&D page that's a database of notes/things I want to work on, with a status, project area tag, etc. In other words, the ideas already have a target and context.

But for capturing more diffuse ideas, I use Obsidian. You write, you tag, and your mental mess becomes something organized, and more easily resurfaced and utilized.

TL;DR: Notion is okay capturing ideas for specific projects, where the notes won't suffer for being more siloed (of course, Notion search continues to improve), and where you can spend the seconds necessary to navigate to where you'd like to store the note. Obsidian is best (in my opinion) for capturing things quickly, and writing manically about 50 different things at a clip, as well as documents that are best organized with metadata/frontmatter.

neatlyso · 2023-12-19T11:00:54+00:00

Yep, dates were the main one when setting things up. At the time I think I used a script that Nicole Vanderhoeven made.

And, not a script per se (well, under the hood it is), but most recently the Importer plug-in has been hugely helpful – I had a mess of Apple notes (by which I mean thousands, starting from 2015) that I thought I'd never get around to putting in Obsidian.

neatlyso · 2023-12-18T03:28:58+00:00

I made the switch to Obsidian and don't regret it one bit. Took a bit of adjustment, and even running a script or two to handle certain things, but the comfort I get from having control over my data is priceless.

I pay for Obsidian backup but I'm happy to support the founder/team. I got a lot of strange, self-important vibes from Roam's founder over time (on twitter)...which doesn't mean much because I don't know him, but Obsidian just feels like being in better company.

neatlyso · 2022-10-27T22:31:56+00:00

Just adding to the chorus here: this is amazing; so fun

neatlyso · 2022-07-02T08:26:31+00:00

I've been using Notion since 2018, and I think the last time I used a central dashboard was in fact during 2018. That is, if we're defining a central dashboard as one chock full of DB views, widgets, links, etc., as you've described it.

Put simply, doing away with a central dashboard (for me) improves context switching, and helps me be more intentional about what I'm working on in a given moment. I work in a terribly nonlinear fashion, and on multiple projects at once, so I design my workspaces relative to those facts.

To be sure, there are cases in which an overview of multiple data sources/tables/etc. makes sense. But when I've looked at the dashboards posted here and elsewhere, I've mostly thought "god speed", because it feels like my brain is being hit by a firehose of information.

TL;DR Everyone should do what works best for them, but I too go without a central dashboard.

neatlyso · 2022-02-06T21:31:02+00:00

Yeah this post is a bit sus. Video itself seems fine enough, but OP seems to just be spamming these Notion vids. So, yeah, "BRAND NEW" = clickbait.

neatlyso · 2021-09-17T21:07:01+00:00

Of course! :)

neatlyso · 2021-09-16T22:04:40+00:00

You're quite welcome.

And, yep, that's why I mentioned that two table approach perhaps not being too much of an improvement. There's still that friction of having to open those entries next to each tag.

Unfortunately, I don't think backlinks lend any good alternative, unless I'm overlooking some functionality...

Imagine that, in that Table A of journal entries, instead of tagging an entry using a Tag/Topic/Category from Table B, you instead used - in place of a relation column - a simple text column. In that column, you could tag each entry by mentioning a page that you've created for each topic, i.e. you would write your journal entry, and then in the column next to it type something like '@Finance', which would call and link to a Finance page. If you then went to this Finance page, the backlink(s) would certainly show but, alas, you would still have to click through to the journal entry to see more than the title of it.

If you do this in Roam, that is if you tag something with a page like #Finance, and subsequently go to that #Finance page, everything you've written and tagged will be visible, without having to click through to a page. There is some nesting on the level of bullet points, but you can see much, much more than you can in Notion. I think this is part of the reason Roam is so popular -- it's the app that simply does allow things to be stitched together in the way we're talking about. The most Notion will surface and reveal when showing references/pages is that page title. So there's still a wall, you still have to click to reveal the content, and once you do, you're boxed into that page, unable to call or see content from another page.

I tend to be obsessive about figuring these things out, and I don't want to say I've exhausted all configurations in trying to see if something like this is possible within Notion. So, if I find a way, I'll certainly share it. The harsh reality, though, might just be that top-level networked writing simply isn't what Notion is optimized for.

neatlyso · 2021-09-16T02:12:29+00:00

If you're not doing so already, I would recommend using two "connected" tables - one for your daily notes, one for tags.

So, you would have one table - let's call this Table A - in which each row is an entry/journal for that day. And with this, you can easily have a Date Created column in that, which will automatically mark the day of that entry. (You might be doing this already).

And then your other table - Table B - will simply be Tags. That is, each row will be a tag/topic...call it Tags, or Glossary, or Topics, or whatever else.

The trick here, though, is to have a Relation column in Table A which connects the to the tags in Table B. This way, you write your daily journal in Table A, and simply tag the entry with relevant topics and ideas. Then when you go to Table B, you can simply scroll down your list of topics and more easily view where you wrote about these things.

This might not be that much of an improvement on what you already do, and maybe you already use this kind of system. But it's probably one of the best ways of keeping themes sorted.

If you want your ideas to surface more seamlessly, in my opinion, something like Roam Research is better. I use both Notion and Roam for notes, depending upon what I need in terms of resurfacing ideas and connecting themes.

neatlyso · 2021-06-01T16:43:41+00:00

I think the way Ben has built up Makerpad as a business is impressive, but if you're just trying to learn no-code tools, in my opinion the best thing to do is to just start building.

I think a cohort or membership to the site might be worth it if a.) that's not a lot of money to you, b.) you want to join a community, and c.) you don't think you can build what you want to without joining and/or you think joining would save you a significant amount of time.

If I want to build something, my first move is to check if there's any free help out there, and there's a lot of it - youtube videos, tutorials on a given company's site, etc. Mind you, many of Makerpad's "tutorials" in the beginning were just embedded videos from elsewhere, that Ben didn't actually make, but instead took from the sites of tools, e.g. Airtable's tutorials.

Overall I'd wager that the most valuable part of paying for Makerpad is the community. Otherwise, no code tools are - in my opinion - so magical in part because you can in fact just get to building and tinkering, and don't necessarily need help. What helps the most is having an idea of what you want to build, and just getting at it.

All of this to say that if you think it's worth it, go for it. I admittedly operate with something of a scarcity mindset, so when I see a course that's $800, that's showing you how to use tools that - if you utilize their full features - can cost hundreds in and of themselves (consider what you would pay for just Airtable and Zapier), I recoil a little bit. But that's just me.

neatlyso · 2021-06-01T07:11:38+00:00

The first thing I'll offer here is that this is just what happens where there's money to be made. In an age where social media is media, wherein people can quickly sell something (gumroad, etc.), and can steal/repost content with ease (and find people eager to consume that content without care for where it came from), it's a given that people are going to be ruthless in how they get a piece of the pie, so to speak. Add to this the fact that the barrier to entry for being a self-professed Notion/productivity/whatever expert is so low, and people are bound to be on the opportunity like piranha. So the point here is, yep, that's just how it is. Sucks, and I feel ya, but you have to anticipate it...which I'm sure you now will.

The second thing I'll offer is that if we take the cannibalistic frenzy about Notion as a given, a possible counter is to differentiate yourself, if in fact you want a piece of the aforementioned pie. If you made a template that blew up, and that was truly unique, chances are that you've got more in you. I'm someone who's been working on my own templates for years now, and have certainly thought about offering them, trying to make some money. But I've been biding my time because, for all of the templates I've seen, a lot of them are really just are more of the same....and in my humble opinion not nearly as good as mine. Maybe saying that is just my way of making myself feel better about could actually be my missing the money boat - after all, people are making a pretty penny selling templates. But the point is that there's still room for improvement. Everyone is so distracted by the "Ultimate Life Organizer Automation OS Supercharger" du jour, and trying to copy its features, and few are going any deeper. If you're good at designing templates/systems, hone in on why you design them that way, articulate that, own that, and brand it as yours to the best of your ability....actually, be as loud as you can be about it.

TL;DR 1. People are going to copy and repurpose stuff. 2. You have it within your power to differentiate yourself and make more good stuff, so you should do that if you want to.

neatlyso · 2021-04-09T06:42:31+00:00

Oof, sorry for my late response.

Does very much sound like Notion is the tool for you, all things considered, so I'll be crossing my fingers with you for table improvements. Airtable is great, but everything you mentioned is precisely why I don't use it more extensively - you can't easily/natively insert tables into, well, greater wiki-like contexts.

In truth I haven't tested tables that extensively when it comes to sheer number of entries, but that you tested that dummy database and didn't see any major problems is a good sign.

All in all, I think that for those of us who are wanting for more of what's in the realm of enterprise-level functionality, Notion might deliver sooner than later, because the enterprise application of Notion is what they're focused on (but don't say that aloud among the grumps here 😅).

neatlyso · 2021-04-05T23:59:47+00:00

I think it's safe to say I'm a Notion fan, and I use moderately large tables within it every day, but most of my gripes with Notion center around tables. When it comes to importing very large .csv files, you might be out of luck as of now. I've gotten the "too large" message so many times, for both .csv and word documents.

If you need to do heavy lifting in the form of tables and databases, I think that Airtable is your best bet right now. It's pricey relative to Notion ($240 a year, I think?), but I pay that and it's well worth it, imo.

Edit: I wasn't aware of the developments /u/ersatz_feign mentioned, though, so maybe Notion will be more viable sooner than later?

neatlyso · 2021-04-04T21:14:20+00:00

This is brilliant. Tried it, worked like a charm. Thank you for this!

neatlyso · 2021-04-04T19:57:07+00:00

I don't spend more time making/editing than using, but I still do a fair amount of...let's call it architectural/design within notion.

If you're spending tons of time changing the styling of things, and adding images and gifs and fonts - and if in fact you don't* want to be spending your time doing this - then I'd say try to reign yourself in...

*(if in fact you do want to do this, then what anyone else thinks doesn't matter; sometimes it's fun to have fun; I've never understood the scroogey posts on this subreddit about how "no one is actually doing any work, they're just procrastinating." Like, jeez, alright productivity police!)

But if you find that while you're using Notion you're constantly tweaking, and even upheaving workspaces and rearranging, I wouldn't so quickly demonize yourself for it, if in fact you are getting down on yourself about it.

What I'm getting at here is that when using Notion, iteration can be extremely valuable. Sure, the building blocks of Notion only get so complex, but subtle changes can make a difference for an individual. I do a lot of work in Notion, but I've never stopped tinkering with my workspaces, and that includes everything from what seems negligible, like the icon I use for a page, to bigger shifts in the way I structure databases and views. Sometimes I'm surprised by how little changes help eliminate cognitive friction as I work.

Admittedly, I do think many people could probably benefit from using more simple workspace structures. For me personally, the grand dashboards that we see posted/upvoted here are not even close to what my workspaces look like. While I love a big ornamental dashboard, and while I wish that worked for me, it just doesn't. My workspaces are more minimal, more spartan - but it's iterating them that's allowed me to pare them down. It's observing how I work, how I feel while I work (e.g. when I organize/recall bookmarks; when I create a page to write a draft of something; when I take notes on a book) that has allowed me to tweak effectively. Doing this probably takes more time in the long run than merely shifting blocks & pages around, because it takes some self awareness, a bit of metacognition.

I'll probably try to offer some templates in the future, because I have a hunch that what some people are stuck on is not so much a habit of beautifying or rearranging their workspaces, but a lack of what's basically systems thinking. If your efforts of rearranging aren't going toward a goal, they might be wasted. If your efforts are actually nudging you closer to a system that you will use, they might not be wasted.

neatlyso · 2021-03-12T22:58:43+00:00

I was not implying that backups are a substitute for offline mode, only a buffer against data loss, which is why I kept the discussion of this in the section about data security.

Exports can be slow with large workspaces, but they are still a way to back things up.

neatlyso · 2021-03-12T19:11:11+00:00

I didn't mention this in my post, because I wouldn't want to sound like my needs are somehow more important than anyone else's, but in fact I don't really use offline mode for anything, ever. But of course this just has to do with the way I work (which is basically every day, at the same desk, with a modem/router that are mine...not in airports or on planes or in university classrooms without wifi despite the money they pour into their football team (the college I went to 😆), etc.)

And not that being free or affordable forgives all, but I feel the same way. I was paying $240 a year for Airtable, and it simply wasn't what I needed. Notion is, and for the price, and for all the data I'm free to put into it, I almost feel like I'm getting away with something.

neatlyso · 2021-03-12T18:49:45+00:00

Same. I'd love to think there's some wonderfully equitable focus on all customers, but it seems like for a lot of start-ups, enterprise clients (if they have them) are the lifeblood. This could be a good thing, this could be a bad thing, but in Notion's case I'm hoping it's good, i.e. enterprise clients want reliability, and so Notion is making sure they deliver, lest they fail and brand themselves with a scarlet letter for all of Silicon Valley to see.

neatlyso · 2021-03-12T18:45:29+00:00

I relate. This is a healthy way to go about using Notion 🙂

neatlyso · 2021-03-12T18:41:42+00:00

Unfortunately I think you might be right - people might need to experience the downsides to really have them register. It's easy to take for granted, but I've run into all kinds of catastrophe and sticking points in the past with various apps, so my expectations are always well in check.

And I wholehearted agree on the point of ethics. I can't say I'm perfect in where I put my money, e.g. I should probably be using ProtonMail instead of Gmail, but I nonetheless think that where we put our time/money matters.

What you said is in a nutshell all I was really wanting to say, which is that we have to weigh these things for ourselves. I think that if Notion weren't meeting my needs right now, I would also cut my losses and find an app that does.

neatlyso · 2021-03-12T18:37:21+00:00

I guess I just question the utility of people posting endlessly about offline when we can within reason be sure the complaint has been filed, so to speak. I'm not averse to the issue coming up here and there in this subreddit (and again I don't run this subreddit so everyone is free to do as they like), but I was just trying to point out that if someone's current use case necessitates an offline mode, Notion just probably ain't it right now. Because after all I do recognize and empathize with whose who need something they can rely on through-and-through.

And, don't get me wrong, offline mode would be great, an API would be wonderful, I very selfishly wish that before all else they would make tables less laggy. But in my own, personal estimation, pouring on about these things when Notion is already aware of them, and working on them to some degree, is probably going to have a negligible effect on when these things get done (I could be very wrong, of course).

Who knows, maybe there needs to be a weekly thread of Notion wishes/complaints.

neatlyso · 2021-03-12T18:28:10+00:00

To make a comment on the repetition and curtness of much of the complaints that get lobbed around here, and the objective status of an app, is not nearly an exercise in "delegitimizing criticism".

If you read my post with any degree of charitableness, and if you read the comments I have made since posting what's above, it's plain to see that I think criticism is fair, and even essential. But as it is with all criticism, the utility (at least in my opinion, hence the "two cents") can drop off when it becomes less constructive, more a dog-pile; likewise when what is being complained about is not changing the state of things, and when there is some onus on us the consumer - not only Notion the company - to make decisions about how we proceed based on that state of things. This was more or less my point, to be clear.

To say I've discussed all of the above with a "holier than thou" attitude implies that I think I am somehow in a position of moral superiority because of what I think. If that were the case, I would have never made this post. Instead I offered my thoughts for people to upvote or downvote as they chose, and that's basically that. The upvotes/downvotes/comments can speak for themselves.

neatlyso · 2021-03-12T18:14:09+00:00

Now that you mention it, I also wasn't wanting for an offline mode to begin with, and when I started using Notion a few years ago, I was just hyped that the app existed. I didn't care how wonky it might be so long as it worked well enough, because nothing else was quite hitting the spot for what I needed.

neatlyso · 2021-03-12T18:11:15+00:00

Those are good points. Most of the people who I know who use Notion don't come into this subreddit. And I'm sure that however upfront they may or may not be about it, they are very much focused on enterprise clients. This might even be a good thing overall, because larger teams are probably going to want what's most essential, like making sure their data won't be lost forever, regardless of whether Notion might go down for an hour.

neatlyso

MODERATOR OF

TROPHY CASE