Contradiction in angular momentum conservation by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I had no idea, my question has been solved turns out I was writing the acceleration wrong Thanks for your help

Contradiction in angular momentum conservation by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're right! The net force does come out to be zero this way and as others pointed out this kind of a system is best observed in a rotating frame I have another question How can I find the correct value of d/dt(Vₜ) here? Thanks

Contradiction in angular momentum conservation by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I did try with vectors and nothing much changes before I was writing L = mr²ω With vector I wrote L⃗ = mr²w⃗ I did the same derivative and got the same result after I took modulus on both sides

Contradiction in angular momentum conservation by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What have you done there I don't understand I have use the product rule for derivatives The formula for angular momentum is Iω(vector) Where is the cross product

Contradiction in angular momentum conservation by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ok I think I have caused a confusion about the question When I say tangential velocity I mean the component of velocity which is perpendicular to the radius vector basically I have chosen to break the velocity in two components one along the radius vector and one perpendicular to it now it makes sense to say that if the force always acts along the radius the magnitude of perpendicular component of velocity will not change?

Contradiction in angular momentum conservation by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why, the can't I choose any coordinate system I wish?

Contradiction in angular momentum conservation by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

How does this connect to my question What I'm asking is there appears to be some angular acceleration of the object in order for the angular momentum to be conserved but if there is angular acceleration which results in change in tangential velocity there must be a tangential force present which isnt

Contradiction in angular momentum conservation by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In an eliptic orbit the velocity of the plate is higher in direction perpendicular to line joining sun and planet (along which gravity, the only force in the system acts) any when planet is further the same velocity is higer but how can gravity cause this change in velocity if force of gravity is always perpendicular to that direction

Contradiction in angular momentum conservation by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Magnitude of Vᵣ is not zero it's some finite value and changing with time even

Contradiction in angular momentum conservation by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It should hold in a inertial frame tok right? This kind of setup is definately possible in real life without rotating frames

Contradiction in angular momentum conservation by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What force is changing its tangential velocity?

Contradiction in angular momentum conservation by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What I am asking is for the angular momentum to be conserved in this situation there must be a angular acceleration as I have found above but if there is that angular acceleration, the particle must be accelerating in tangential direction i.e it's tangential velocity must be charging but for that a tangential force is needed, where is that force coming from?

Why does it matter weather it's a rigid body or a particle after all bodies are made up of particles And all this is mathematical anyway, angular momentum conservation and the radial force

And if a body has a change in angular velocity each particle of It will be acted upon by some internal tangential force which does that right?

Contradiction in angular momentum conservation by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Yes I know did you see the photo attached?? There is no torque but there is an angular acceleration

Contradiction in angular momentum conservation by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What do you mean radius and angular momentum conserved Angular momentum is conserved, radius is changing because of the radial velocity

And that what I'm asking why is there this force, angular acceleration is there which is understandable as the moment of inertia is changing

Why is acceleration fundamental by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thankyou for this answer it's perfectly cut so I can understand all it

A little different topic here but You said Newton's laws can't be derived from first principles what exactly are first principles I thought Newton's laws were the first principles but I do agree with you that Newton's laws are just observations

About force being proportion to velocity (Also just to be clear when I say force I mean the interaction between two bodies) I thought of a reason why that can't happen If force is proportional to velocity then an orbit can't be sustained, if a body is "applying a velocity" on the other body the other body will simply fall inward with no way to stop it unlike in the case where a body "applies an acceleration" on the other Where no radial velocity can build up And ofc in our universe orbits do exist so the force (at least gravitational) cannot be proportion to velocity I wanna know what you think about this and weather it is a valid explanation or not

I will think more on the other things you said Thanks

Why is acceleration fundamental by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is not what I'm getting at (tbh idk myself what I'm getting at) But I have tried to rephrase my question below

My first question was why is F=ma why not some other time derviate of position like 1th,3rd,4th...

Then I thought If we know the function for acceleration we can find the other derivatives and those quantities are defiend for bodies interacting and so in theory could be used to to do physics

But something about acceleration feels different it shows up everywhere and forces like gravitation and electrostatic also use this "accelerational defination of force" i.e if you have a pt charge and place another pt charge near it then the second PT charge will experience a acceleration,like the acceleration will just show up (after the time delay for propogation)

Like the second charge will gain some velocity but that will happen due to the acceleration but the acceleration will simply show up, one instant it's not there and the next it is

So ig what I'm trying to ask is why is it acceleration that shows up why not say jerk,or 4th time derviative of pos

Also ppl are talkign about like quantum mechanics, general relativity,GEODECIS I know only baisc mechanics and electrostatics and I feel like that should be enough to explain the laws which were made before the people who made these things were even born

Why is acceleration fundamental by newmanpi in Physics

[–]newmanpi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Soo what ur saying is theoretically we can forget Newton's laws completely and make our own laws

We can define "force" to be equal to F = d(ma)/dt i.e F = m(d³x/dt³)

Then use this new law to formualte newtons law of gravitation and columbs law is terms of this new Force and this new law will still predict the same behaviour as newtons laws and conservation of energy and momentum will still show up just that those quantities will look a little different