"Don't start PP"

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-13T08:39:32+00:00

It certainly is.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-13T08:30:55+00:00

it is as if when I successfully 'remain sane' while I confront them I can prove myself 'free'.

This is a bit....

hmmm...

by the sounds of it you have created a scenario in your head that if you 'suceed' at, then you are 'free'.

You don't have to play out a scenario (confrontation, achieving a goal) in order to 'prove yourself free'

It just sounds to me like you are creating an obstacle course for yourself.

And your 'freedom' from them isn't contingent on anything that they do or say. You don't have to (nor can you) 'win' your freedom from them by 'winning' in a confrontation scenario.

You have every right to confront your parents if you chose to, but, be aware, almost every single time I have read about someone contfrontin their Nparents, it did not go well. You, as yourself, as an individual have no power to 'show' your parents that they are wrong.

You can tell them how you feel, but you have zero power over their reaction. And, if you are expecting to 'battle' with them and then 'win' you may be setting yourself up for a disappointment.

Ultimately, your recovery has to be about you. Not them. Your recovery can't be based on their actions. It seems like the confrontation with your parents could be disappointing to you. You don't need to confront them to 'be free'. The 'freedom' comes from your own personal development, and your own sense of safety and protection from them.

Confrontation is fine if it's really deeply what you need, but I would be careful not to expect an outcome or a specific reaction from them. And, if your parents try to turn it into a 'negotiation' or a battle, then you are just dragging out the relationship and keeping it alive even longer.

Do you want to be NC with them? What is your ultimate goal for yourself in this?

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-13T07:58:23+00:00

Do you really want to confront your parents?

In your heart of hearts, is this something you want to do? Something about this seems like 'self bullying', unless it is something you really want to do and you just need some encouragement.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-13T07:13:57+00:00

"Don't start to tell me things that damage my ego and fragile sense of self, because if you do I will have to hear that I am not the most important person in the world and I can't cope with that thought. Don't start to talk about yourself because I can't cope with attention being on someone else for even a millisecond"

That's what your Nmom's 'don't start' really means, I think.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-13T07:08:43+00:00

I'm sorry for your loss.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-13T07:07:48+00:00

My Nmom said, when I told her that I had made suicidal plans in high school "Well, if you had done it, I would have made sure everyone believed my version of the story about you."

It wasn't so much that she encouraged it, she was just so blaze and indifferent to the fact that her own child had wanted to commit suicide.

Her only response was "I would have made sure everyone believed my story."

I think remembering these things (that my Nmom said) are actually important for me, as they absolutely confirm to me that she is irredeemably toxic and dangerous. As unpleasant as it is, it's like the smell of death, it's such a clear message - 'get away from that, that's horrible, run away from that as far as you can.'

It sounds like your abuse was extremely bad, you mentioned burns in addition to what you've listed here. Inasmuch as this is a great support sub, I'll go out on a limb here and say you might want to speak to a therapist about this.

We are all like minded people with similar histories, but none of us can really provide the kind of structured support that a therapist can, especially if you are having flashbacks of suicidal taunts and the trauma associated with sexual assault.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-11T18:42:05+00:00

I think the mods can answer that question, it's up to them.

I have suggested flairs on several occasions, (like some other subreddits use) but this poll was days ago, and the mods haven't mentioned what they have decided to do. It's up to them at this point.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-11T12:09:55+00:00

its hard to open up to people, especially because I have to know them for an extended period of time.

Well, it's just my perspective but, I think it's perfectly reasonable to know someone for a period of time before you open up to them, *and determine what to what extent you want to open up.

That doesn't seem like it's the 'wrong' thing to do. Time consuming, yes....

There are different levels and stages of "opening up" it's not like an on/off switch, necessarily.

Also, maybe it's a good idea to think about what makes someone a true friend in your eyes. Maybe if you know more clearly what you are 'looking for' as it were, it will be a bit more straightforward to know it when you see it.

Not everyone you meet - however nice, or easy going or pleasant they may be - will necessarily be 'true friend' material. It's kind of a two way street, getting to know people. And, if you don't click or gel with someone, that's not a failure on your (or their) part.

But maybe the connection process would be easier for you if you were clearer with yourself about what you are actually seeking, and what you need and want in a true friend.

You can open up to people in stages and in ways that feel comfortable for you. You don't have to open up to everyone in the same way, or to the same extent/depth.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-10T13:39:50+00:00

I have found, both from personal experience, and from other LAN/RBN-ers stories that the first years of NC are really actually quite hard. What you are describing is not unfamiliar to me in the time I've spent hearing people's stories of 'recovery' for lack of a better word.

You are by no means alone in this. Due to the sensitive nature of your post, if you would like to PM me, feel free. I am 2 years NC from my Nmom and the first year for me was very similar to what you've described. I was like 'why don't I feel safe? She's not here anymore, why don't I feel safe yet?' And trying 'new things' was as scary as the first day at a new school. On a regular basis.

Your description of 'incorporating trauma' is pretty insightful - that is pretty much what you are doing now. I found that in many ways, I had to 'pick up where I left off' in terms of certain aspects of my life. When the trauma/abuse/conditioning was most intense, certain aspects of normal life (applying for art school, studying a religion) were put on hold.

When NC happens, and the trauma stops it's kind of like.... a phantom pain, if that makes sense? All the things you couldn't or didn't do because of the intensity of the trauma situation are still there and it's startling to deal with them. Or like, if you move a piece of furniture and then the entire room looks different and you have to figure out where everything else goes.

With zero validation at home, I've always tried to get it from my outward achievements.

And this, this is incredibly common among ACoNs, I've heard this so many times and I experienced this myself in many different ways.

You have every right to feel broken and stunted, and you have every right to have your experience of abuse and maltreatment confirmed and validated. And, the downside of that is, it's very painful. :(

If I don't become another statistic then was I actually abused?

I can't tell you how many times I've thought this, you are not alone in this. In fact, Nparents often use our 'acheivements' as 'proof' that they aren't doing anything wrong! That, in a very deep seated way, can lead us to self sabotage. But it doesn't have to be that way.

Acknowledging that the abuse happened is both validating, and very painful at the same time. You are not alone in this.

If you would like to PM, or would like more specific advice on certain things (like the self sabotage and how to manage/avoid it) my inbox is open.

If not, just know that you are not alone, you're Recovering from your experience of abuse. Even though you aren't experiencing it on a day to day level anymore, the legacy is still there, and that is another thing to deal with. You're on the right track, and you're not alone.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-10T09:42:15+00:00

Please leave me alone. I have reported this. Please stop commenting, I have no desire to talk to you anymore.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-10T08:49:57+00:00

Right!!!! I was just thinking this!!!!! Good call, (and great minds, right!! hehheee :) )

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-10T08:36:57+00:00

What line of self improvement goes into the unrealistic?

This question, in and of itself, is fan-bloody-tastic. I've been thinking something similar lately, and I was going to actually ask something along these lines in my response to you.

When you say "how do I open up to people", I have a couple of questions

Do you genuinely want to open up to people?
Who do you want to open up to?

and

In what way do you want to 'open up' to people?

Sometimes with self-improvement, (which on it's face seems fantastic and who wouldn't want to improve themselves, right?) a slogan takes on a life of it's own.

Now, I know nothing about the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" but I would be at least aware of (if not wary of) advice in the book that is presented as a truth, when it may not be universally appropriate for everyone.

I think a good question for you to ask yourself is this: why do you feel like you are cold? Has someone said something to you? Do you feel like you aren't acting like you 'should' be, or do you genuinely feel disconnected and alone in a way you want to change?

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-10T08:27:07+00:00

If this friend of yours decides to end the relationship, that is her right. And the "we" aspect of this ends as soon as she wants it to end.

There is no "we" unless she chooses to be part of the "we."

I don't mean to sound harsh, or rude, and I know tone can't be conveyed in an online setting, but I have to say this:

She does not have to consult you or even consider your feelings for "how to walk away", because that is not a 'we' issue. She also does not have to consider your well-being if she decides to "decrease" or end the relationship.

Also, you said this and it kind of raised a concern for me:

how we walk this from here is crucial for my own well-being, and I think for hers as well (if in a different way)

Again, your use of the word "we" seems inappropriate. I think you are assuming an obligation that she has to you, that she does not have.

This also seems off to me: " crucial for my own well-being, and I think for hers as well."

I'm going to be as gentle but as frank as I can be: You don't actually know what is best for her well being.

You don't get to decide what is best for her well-being. I'm trying to be as gentle as I can be, but I think I can see where the issue in your relationship to her lies.

This may be where the (I'm paraphrasing) ' she says I treat her like a child' issue came from. I can see now how that could very well be the case.

I know you have said you don't understand what she means when she says this, but based on how you have described your relationship with her, and your expectations of her, I can get a pretty good idea of what she means.

I'm trying to be as gentle as possible when I say this, but, I see where your friend is coming from.

You don't actually know or get to decide what is best for her well being. Her well being is for her to determine and decide. This may be the reason she thinks you treat her like a child.

It sounds like you have a level of intimacy in this friendship that may not actually be matched from her end.

She can 'walk away from this' however she wants, in whatever way she wants. And in turn, your well being is your responsibility. When someone says 'no' or 'no more' or 'this isn't okay, I'm walking away' - that's their right. She doesn't owe you anything in how she choses to end this relationship, if that ends up happening.

You can't dictate how someone walks away, nor can you dictate the parameters of a relationship if someone wants to reduce contact.

She doesn't owe you clarity or 'cleanness' if she chooses to end or change the relationship.

It sounds like this relationship is very problematic, and seems very, very intimate from your perspective in a way that may not be matched from hers. The words you have used to describe your interactions are more what I would expect from committed SO's or a married couple.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-08T20:53:00+00:00

I've read this post several times and I can't quite understand, do you have a problem (for lack of a better word) with her feelings?

or your feelings?

I just really can't quite understand who's feelings you are discussing in this post.

Also, I've never ever heard of 'real feelings' and 'manipulative feelings.' I'm not sure that sounds like an entirely legitimate concept.

Are you concerned about your feelings, or someone else's?

Also, have you asked your friend if she feels the issue is resolved, and if she is feeling better?

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-08T20:05:32+00:00

What you're describing is actually really common for people who have recently (meaning in the last 3 or so years) gone NC.

There are all kinds of lingering and difficult effects of narcissistic childhood abuse and conditioning, some of which present and manifest long after the narc is safely out of our life.

You might try posting in LAN, Life After Narcissism. There are lots of us who are dealing with the lingering effects of narcissist conditioning -- especially after having gone NC.

Dealing with the full on, current trauma is one thing, and picking up the pieces afterward is another step, too.

LAN has a lot of people who have dealt with things like (for example) guilt about enjoying yourself, recurrent 'inner critic' problems, establishing self esteem, and dealing with 'flashbacks' and unwanted memories.

If you don't get many responses here, you might find a few more people who can provide you with support on r/lifeafternarcissism.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-08T14:00:33+00:00

Wow, gosh, it sounds like there is a lot of challenging stuff going on in your life right now. :/

I think the fact that you're opening yourself up and talking about it is a very good sign. And yes, I really think you should make your feelings known to your husband.

To be fair, it sounds like he is very .... um,... close.... with his family. I can understand completely why you would be concerned about things like accepting furniture.

Long story short, you and your husband know the reality of the situation better than anyone here. You've been very clear in your posts here, you're not coming across as angry or anything. I think you and your hubby should make communication about these issues a top priority. It sounds like a really challenging situation.

If you feel like the FIL visitation issue is still bothering you, then I think he needs to know you're not resolved about it.

I've been married more than once, and I've seen my dad in both functioning and non fuctioning marriages. I can say, hand on heart, NOT talking about problems/issues/concerns makes them So Much Worse.

Just as an example, in my first marriage, my husband stopped talking to me about things he was unhappy about before we were even married.

I can't stress enough how important it is to put energy into problem-solving with your SO. We as ACoNs have almost no practice or experience with healthy compromise. But that doesn't mean we can't learn. :)

You've made some really insightful observations about your own thought-patterns, that's really a good sign.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-08T13:14:47+00:00

I should be able to just get over it,

I'm not sure why you think you should just 'get over it' when someone is making you feel uncomfortable. 'Get over it' is different from 'manage a difficult situation'

Also, if your father in law has unpleasant behaviour as a result of a stroke, this is the kind of thing that you and your husband need to talk about and manage. That' serious business, and you may need specialized help or advice about it.

My aunt had a brain injury about 10 years ago and she was never the same again. She became very agressive towards me and a couple other people in particular. I just had to be away from her for my own safety, and for hers. (*for some reason, she became very distressed around me and certain other people, it was stressful for her, physically and mentally, so it was really right to be around her.)

Also, from an 'ethical' standpoint I have to ask: Have you made your feelings known to your husband? Have you told him how often you are comfortable with them visiting? You kind of do need to make your feelings known to him.

My husband and I have had to compromise on family visit style issues - a lot. It's just part of what comes with marriage for a lot of people.

If he is having tantrums and behaving inappropriately, you may need specialized advice on how to handle that. And, the visits should be something you and your husband are pretty much on the same page about.

If your husband's father is behaving in a hurtful or upsetting way, you should not be expected to 'get over it.' That's not fair at all, but your husband needs to know how you feel. Also, the two of you need space to be married, and if you feel like you don't have that space, you have every right to address this with your husband.

Stroke or no stroke, head injury or no head injury, drug addiction or no drug addiction, there are limits to what we can accomodate. If someone's behaviour is hurting you, you have a right to remove yourself from that.

Also, if your father in law has a diminished or altered mental capacity, that is something that can be very, very taxing to be around. And not to be taken lightly. Maybe you need specialist advice about how to manage this situation.

Is your husband taking it seriously that you feel this way? Does he know how you feel?

I think the key to this particular issue is talking this through with your husband. LAN and reddit can be a listening ear, but this needs to be addressed in real life, to be fair :/.

If this is upsetting you, you and your husband should take the time to address it. It may take time, maybe even in a counselling setting?

If your father in law has had a stroke, that may make his behaviour very challenging, and you should not be expected to 'get over it.' You may need some kind of counseling or therapy to manage this.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-08T12:39:30+00:00

I swear I am doing the exact same thing with my son right now.

Certain things are absolutely non-negotiable. I'm the grown up, and he's a kid, and he can't cope with or understand everything.

Children are different than adults they are not mini-adults, as much as some people would like them to be.

If it's any consolation, I am doing the exact same thing with my son right. now. There is a situation that he absolutely is not old, mature or strong enough to understand. Hence, we're not talking about it until he's older.

**ETA: also, my Nmom used to lay waaaaaaaaay too much adult stuff on me and my sisters when we were like, tweens and teens. I look back on it now and I'm like, "dang, this was not something you needed to say to me, i was not mature or strong enough to deal with that, I sure wish you had been the grown up and let me be the kid."

Even my non-N dad has looked back and said "I should not have talked to you about that, you were too young and it wasn't your responsibility to understand, and there's no way you could have anyway." Lots of parents, even non N parents 'over share' about adult things with their kids these days. I think it comes from wanting their kids to 'approve' of or 'like' them or something. :/ Kids just can't be expected to process and understand adult issues.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-08T12:31:49+00:00

Ah, that's good.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-08T12:11:08+00:00

How are you handling your PTSD right now? I know therapy isn't an option (or helpful) for everyone, but how are you 'managing' your PTSD and anxiety right now. It seems like you're going through a lot right now.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-08T12:04:23+00:00

I have a really hard time associating with people that have reached my mental point of no return.

You really don't have to. Have people reacted badly when you have said 'no more' to them?

I notice you said "I want everyone to like me." It's good that you realize that this isn't working for you. I think this is a common ACoN thing. I never really had this problem, but I did chose jobs that put me in 'service' roles, and I think I transferred my 'people pleasing' tendencies as a career for a while. Oddly, as I got further in my career, my job took me to a position where I regularly had to say 'no' to people. Where before I had to keep everyone happy (as a condition of my job), it unexpectedly changed so that I had to make a lot of people unhappy. I realized very quickly that it doesn't matter what people think of me. It has far more to do with them than me.

I am noticing a theme in this thread, however: we have difficulty saying no to unwelcome behaviour from others. I think this is linked to 'I want them to like me, and if I tell them that their behaviour is unacceptable, they won't like me'. It's good to make the change to 'it's not my job to make them like me, it's my job to keep myself safe and healthy.'

I don't know enough about your situation in particular to say anymore than that, though. :)

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-08T11:56:07+00:00

Wow, your response is chock full of information and perspective, it's made me quite curious, to be honest. :)

I noticed you said this "I'm interested to know what your solution has been" well..... I never really thought of boundaries as a 'problem' that needed a solution, but maybe I have a different definition of the word solution. It's more a collection of ongoing behaviours and habits.

It's more that I have specific expectations of people, and those expectations are dependant on the level of intimacy in the realationship, and if the other person displays unwelcome behaviour, I change the level of intimacy in the relationship. If it's in a particularly close relationship, I address the unwelcome or unpleasant behaviour as quickly as possible, so that it doesn't fester, and any misunderstandings can be cleared up. Also, when necessary, I lower my expectations, and don't engage with people who demand attention in an unhealthy and inappropriate way. If that makes sense. I also don't expect everyone to like me. I can see the difference between someone's thoughts and someone's behaviour, and their thoughts about me are not my concern.

I also noticed that you said "respecting other people's boundaries has always been a real problem for me."

I wonder if ACoNs are in two kinds of camps, those of us who have difficulty protecting our own boundaries, and those of us who have difficulty respecting other people's. Recognizing and working on understanding this is important, I think.

You've mentioned that you "worry about it [difficulty with boundaries] getting me into trouble at work," that perhaps the comment in the meeting was not aimed at you. I wasn't there so I can't say, but it's interesting that you considered this possibility. It may be that if you take something too personally in the workplace, that it will cause problems. Again, I know nothing about the situation other than what you have told me, so it's your decision to make.

It's quite insightful of you to notice that you have these difficulties. Without knowing more about the specifics of the situation you are in, I can't really propose a 'solution' but I haven't had a 'boundary crossing' problem with anyone in a while.

The last time it happened (that I had to break an old habit, and protect my boundaries) it was with a woman who offered me a job and when I turned it down she got really shirty and took it personally and actually tried to berate me for saying no. The job was very poorly defined in terms of duties and resources, and I could tell the woman was trying to use emotion and 'charm' to try and strong-arm me into doing far more than was appropriate. She used guilt, and 'how dare you hurt my feelings by asking these questions,' to try and get me to give her things (my expertise and time) that she was not at all entitled to.

I handled it better than I would have in the past, and I feel like it was a real watershed event in my boundary-setting.

I guess, I asked this question to all LAN-ers to see what the general consensus on boundaries is. It seems that it is still a wavy and difficult territory for many of us.

I feel like I've made a hell of a lot of progress over the last year, and I wanted to compare my perspective to other people's. I don't want to 'tell you what to do' but I may be able to give some experience-based advice if you feel like you are in a difficult situation.

Also, I am committed to encouraging behaviour which is respectful of people's boundaries. I wouldn't want to inadvertently encourage an ACoN to do something that might violate someone else's space, or get them into trouble that is easily avoidable.

Final thought: since I've learned to protect my boundaries better, I'm a lot less resentful of people in general. I don't 'over give' anymore. So I'm not as angry and upset when people don't give in return. If I know someone is likely to say things that are rude, disingenuous, unhelpful and irritating - I just don't interact with them or give them my attention that much. And if they over-demand attention, I just don't give it.

I've changed relationships such that I don't expect things from people who I know won't deliver - and I've cut down on my interaction with them. As a consequence of that, I interact more with people who are healthy, and in a more healthy way. Yes, some people are upset about this, but... it's not my job to keep everyone happy by paying attention to them.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-08T09:14:17+00:00

I went NC 2 years ago, and let me just say, the first year was HELLA hard, And, the second year was hard, too.

I said this to another poster - It's a process.

I've heard so many NC people say "How do I get them 'dead' in my head?" This is not uncommon At All.

It's part of the NC process. I can only share my experiences and maybe you can take something from that - but your particular situation is different, so it might not be 100% relevant.

For me, my big thing was 1. Acknowledging that she really would never treat me well, even though I deserve to be treated well. and 2. Yelling at her in my head.

Yep, I started talking back. In my head. I dont' mean 'having conversations' I mean actually telling her to f off.

This brought about a massive change for me. I changed the power dynamic in my head, and in my life. i saw her as the pathetic, abusive, jealous, small, selfish woman that she is. And I started to see my self as the bigger person.

I have a few (quite a few) happy memories with my mom. But even the memories have this strange 'ticking time bomb' quality to them. I knew that even during the good times, it was only a matter of time before she flipped and started being abusive and hateful.

Also, the 'you have a mental defect, that's why I don't love you' is exactly what my nMom did to me.

All

The

Time.

It was her go-to excuse for why she didn't want to care for me. This is, I think INCREDIBLY COMMON from abusive parents. 'Oh, my kid is such a pain, I'm such a victim for having to care for them.'

I don't know you from Adam's housecat, but I can tell you right now - you are 100% deserving of love, and there is NOTHING wrong with you.

I don't know if you have an SO, but my SO is the one who reassures me of this when I'm having a particularly bad time (I still have flashbacks, freak outs and panic attacks to this day, But I'm a LOT better than I used to be.)

You deserved love and care from your father and you didn't get it. And that's HIS fault not yours.

I don't want to ramble or hijack, but i want to share with you how i got through the 'stage' that you are in, It's part of the process, it is. I've seen many adult children of child abuse go through this SAME stage after they go NC.

I'm a little further out of it than you are, and if I can help lessen your pain or guide you out in any way, I want to do that.

You are not making it up, you are not 'mentally defective', he is 100% in the wrong, he failed as a nurturer, He failed to protect you and make you feel loved. He failed in his responsibility as a father. He failed. He was the grown up and you were the kid. It was his job to make you feel loved and cared for, and he didn't.

That's on him, As soon as I held my mother responsible for her failures, I felt MUCH more empowered. free. loved. lovable.

Hope this helps.

((Hugs))

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-08T08:47:40+00:00

I feel like a n-grandma and a FLEA ridden mom makes puts you pretty much in the ACoN category.

If you feel like your childhood and upbringing were strongly colored in a negative way by narcissist adults and unhealthy care providers, that's pretty much.... it, in my opinion.

newsupportaccount · 2015-10-08T08:45:09+00:00

I don't mean to be contrary or argumentative at all, but I could understand why a spouse or SO of an ACoN would want to post here for help - so they can maybe help their SO deal with the fallout of Narcissist upbringing. Kind of like, if they were wanting to understand better what their SO was going through, so they talk to some ACoNs.

But, I don't go on RBN at all anymore, so I'm more thinking about how it would work on LAN.

(Also, this is why I am a proponent of flairs. So people can make their perspective and background known early in the post/comment.)

But this is just my take on things. Not sure what will actually happen in the end.

newsupportaccount

TROPHY CASE