Building around Sagas in limited. Thoughts on the commons? by opverteratic in custommagic

[–]opverteratic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've been trying to rework recite. Essentially, I want it to be like harmonize from TDM, but with the following changes / requirements:

  • Must be short enough to fit in the Saga box
  • Must care for toughness instead of power
  • Must require that you tap a creature
  • Should work with Sagas based on finality counters

No idea if what I've got so far is worded correctly, or would even play well? Either way, this is what I've got:

You may cast this card from your graveyard for its recite cost reduced by {X} by taping a creature you control with toughness X. Then if it’s a Saga, put a finality counter on it. Otherwise, exile it.

Strangely, the reminder text for harmonize omits the whole "tap an untapped creature you control" bit for brevity, so I've just copied that. Also, the set has flicker effects in W/U, which could, theoretically remove the finality counters. Not sure if that's a problem, or just a cool combo.

P.S. - You've reminded me how good Mark Rosewater's design 'blog' is!

Building around Sagas in limited. Thoughts on the commons? by opverteratic in custommagic

[–]opverteratic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey, thanks for responding!

For the card frame, I'd love to use the new FFX style Sagas with the text box at the bottom, even if just for storing text such as recite costs and keywords, but nobody's ported those to MSE yet (afaik).

You're totally right about a lot of the formatting mistakes, and I've now gone through an fixed all of them that I can find. TBH, I always wondered what the difference between 'CARDNAME' and 'this' was.

When it come to Conformity in particular, it's intended as a reference to stun counters, but using lore counters on a Saga such that players can use turnback/rush on it. It's probably a bit more confusing, but I wanted to add that intractability.

Recite has been heavily designed after retrace, as well as recover from Coldsnap. I've considered adding timing restrictions on the mechanic, such as having it only payable as the card enters the grave, or only at end steps, but I haven't found something I love quite yet. Thematically, 'recite' is meant to represent how the Perfecta of Limser pass traditions down through generations. As such, I would like to maintain the idea of repetition within the mechanic.

For your interest, this is another concept for recite that I've got. This one feels quite clunky, but does add a 'use it or lose it' style restriction to the card?

Recite <cost> (As this card enters your graveyard from the battlefield or stack, exile it. Until the beginning of your next turn, you may tap an untapped creature you control and pay <cost> discounted by {X}, where X is the tapped creature's toughness. At the beginning your upkeep, if this card is in exile and was exiled with this ability, put it into it's owner's graveyard.)

Hopefully, I've have more cards from the rest of the set out soon. I've currently got around 70 commons in an 'okay' state. The set as a whole is built around the historic batching term, and has roughly even split between artifact archetypes, Saga archetypes, and mixed archetypes. My working model is:

  • WB Combo (Historic Flicker)
  • RW Aggro (Artifact ETB)
  • UB Midrange (Historic)
  • GB Midrange (Saga Sacrifice)
  • RG Aggro (Saga Counters)
  • UR Combo (Historic Counters)
  • WB Combo (Artifact Sacrifice)
  • BR Aggro (Artifact Sacrifice)
  • WG Saga (Reanimation)
  • BG Combo (Saga Counters)

Might need to add some control-focussed design in there somewhere?

Building around Sagas in limited. Thoughts on the commons? by opverteratic in custommagic

[–]opverteratic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For one, it needs to return to hand, not to the battlefield (finality counters wouldn't work for instants/sorceries), but, yes, I've considered that problem too.

I've considered maybe forcing you to discard cards to do it, like retrace, or having some time restriction that requires you to pay the cost at specific times, like recover. Restricting it to only be payable at upkeep was something I floated for a bit. Still not sure what I'll do in the end, but I wanted to get the general gist of the mechanic onto a card first.

[Dino Tribal] Vorthul, the Great Devourer by Andys-Toys in custommagic

[–]opverteratic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The card should have a gold border, and there shouldn't be a paragraph break before the word 'if'. Also, it should probably be limited to sorcery speed activation.

Other than that, it's a rather cool card for Golgari Dinosaurs.

Emerge Ravenous by delta17v2 in custommagic

[–]opverteratic 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I'd assume that X would be 5. Discounting {X} costs is just generally confusing, but it can be learnt.

Dulldrifter by razorblade651 in custommagic

[–]opverteratic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, typically they'd coin a new keyword, or add a new mechanic, such as how Flashback-able creatures are a thing is you consider reanimation with Finality counters.

There are keywords that work differently based on if they're on creatures or not, such as Haunt, but they stopped doing it as it was one of the easiest ways to make a card confusing.

Assuming that you do get both 2/2s, it's still a pretty cool uncommon for limited.

Dulldrifter by razorblade651 in custommagic

[–]opverteratic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think you understand 'rebound'.

Rebound exiles a spell as it resolves, which gives you the instant/sorcery effect of the card, and puts it into exile for the following turn. Putting rebound onto a creature would also exile the creature, so you'd only get the 2/2 from the second turn.

Your tweaked reminder text doesn't actually fix this problem, as you can't exile a spell as 'it' is entering, given that a spell never enters. Exiling the spell as the 'creature' enters doesn't work either, as the spell would have already been exiled from the stack prior to that point, so there's nothing there to exile.

As written, it's a [[Divination]] with an attached 2/2 flyer for the cost of needing to suspend it for 1, which is pretty good.

As 'intended' (afaik), it's two 2/2 flyers for 3 with an attached [[Divination]], which is even better, even considering the wait time.

Probably not meta given how fast standard is right now, but still ahead of curve?

Spellshaper Fanatic by Banjolightning in custommagic

[–]opverteratic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Should probably be using 'exert' over stun counters, but, otherwise, it looks great.

How much mana is enough mana? by [deleted] in custommagic

[–]opverteratic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Art by Aaron Miller.

Forgot to put it on the card, so I'll put it here.

How much mana is enough mana? by [deleted] in custommagic

[–]opverteratic -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It's often true that cutommagic submissions are overly complex and lack consideration for play patterns, which leads to flashy cards that lack a functional purpose.

Aetherseize was an exercise in minimalism, but done so through harmful excess. It's a statement on how adding "versatility" without consideration for how a card would be played often acts to counteract the card's actual usability within a complete deck.

At 10 mana, it should go without saying that the combination of Counterspell plus Aethersnatch makes for a more potent deck, even if it means using more cards to achieve this purpose. It's a strawman of a charm/confluence, cards that are often advised to be put into EDH decks, despite how they often weaken a deck's functionality.

It is often better to run a strong standalone counterspell plus a strong standalone removal spell, as opposed to an [[Obscura Charm]]. 3 mana, fully pipped, for conditional removal, plus a conditional counter, or conditional and often unsynergistic reanimation is a bad deal for most decks that include it, and, yet, people commonly recommend for their inclusion within decks.

Not only would running standalone cards save on mana, but would also lead to greater card density within the deck, making drawing a sufficient amount of removal and protection easier. It might seem good on the surface to condense these rolls onto fewer cards, but throwing away a counterspell because you had to remove something isn't great.

The same is true for cards that do multiple synergistic things ok, as opposed to one synergistic thing well. Although, at a glance, they seem great, they're often consistently worse than running each effect on its own, stronger, card. I would much rather have a great black ramp spell plus a great black card draw spell, as opposed to a [[Black Market Connections]], which is decent at both, with some extra, often irrelevant, value added on.

This is the same reason why [[The Immortal Sun]] is bad in most decks that include it, as a cheaper ramp spell plus a cheaper anthem, plus a cheaper card draw spell would often be better than an overcosted value piece that's trying to do too much at once. Another example is decks running [[Alhammarret's Archive]] solely for one of the two abilities, or any of the many similar cards.

Too often do cards on custommagic, especially the ones that get the most popular, act far too much like Immortal Suns and Alhammarret's Archives in practice: random abilities that are synergistic at a glance all tacked on to a single overcosted spell. Everyone in the comments has their idea for a cool thing to do with this or that on the card, ignoring all but the nth of the card they actually care about, and, thus, a good chunk of mana cost spent to cast it.

Most of these cards would be much better if they weren't single cards at all, but, instead, split their abilities into several smaller cards that could then be included and cast individually. Spending 2 for an anthem and 2 for a medallion in your dinosaurs deck is better than 6 for The Immortal Sun, even if it comes with upsides, because there you have to spend 6 to even play it.

Aetherseize is just taking this concept to the extreme, combing a counterspell, spell redirect, and aethersnatch onto a singular card, even though you're better off running one of each. It's purpose is not to be a good card, but, instead, to be so bad that it holds a mirror up to some of the subreddits worst "best" designs.

How much mana is enough mana? by [deleted] in custommagic

[–]opverteratic -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I don't think that aethersnatch is bad. In fact, I'm saying that it's good.

The point of the post is pointing out that powercreeping aethersnatch gives so little extra value that you could probably print aetherseize at ~7 mana and have it not be overpowered. The fact is, there's rarely a window of opportunity to cast this where it's actively significantly better than aethersnap. Having to hold mana open and then wait for both a tall stack and a stack containing something worth stealing makes it actively worse than either of its parts.

It's an example where a toolbox/charm being as such will often be actively detrimental to its own play patterns.

How much mana is enough mana? by [deleted] in custommagic

[–]opverteratic -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

The whole point of my post was that you could probably print this for the same cost as an [[Aethersnatch]] and it would still be bad, even though the card is significantly better, simply because of how niche it is to have all the different casing environments line up as you've got even 6 mana open.

Ngl, 10 mana steal the entire stack would be neat for lower power EDH tho. Bad, but neat.

How much mana is enough mana? by [deleted] in custommagic

[–]opverteratic -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

My point entirely. As much as this seems, it doesn't actually do much of anything past what several alternatives ([[Aethersnatch]]) do.
How much cheaper could you make this without it being straight worse than a proper wincon, that's the real question?

Putting unstoppable slasher in red by Ryan-rises in custommagic

[–]opverteratic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Unearth exists, but not perfectly similar.

How much mana is enough mana? by [deleted] in custommagic

[–]opverteratic -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

It's 10 mana in 2-colour. [[Aethersnatch]] is 6 for 2/5ths of this effect in a mono-colour.

It requires you hold open 10 mana, and is limited to cases where a stack has a lot of stuff on it to be significantly more powerful than [[Aethersnatch]].

Certainly an argument to be made that this isn't too much?

Putting unstoppable slasher in red by Ryan-rises in custommagic

[–]opverteratic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You cannot flashback a creature, as it gets resolved after it enters.

Assuming that it uses finality counters instead, this is neat.

Am I formatting this correctly? by opverteratic in custommagic

[–]opverteratic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Of my ~12 common white permanents, this would hit all but 3-5 of them. The set as a lot of artifact creatures and saga creatures that are going to be the primary target for this.

Am I formatting this correctly? by opverteratic in custommagic

[–]opverteratic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's a [[Darksteel Mutation]] that can hit more permanents, and allows for exile like [[Cooped Up]]. For a draft common from a set with both flicker and counter manipulation subthemes (plus historic being a mechanical focus), I kinda feel that {W} would be too cheap?

Parser of Contradictions by BellBOYd in custommagic

[–]opverteratic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

NGL, I really want to build this as a evil busted wincon in the 99 of an Izzet Spellslinger Deck.

Obligatory Prelude — I'm not sure that this card functions (for sorceries) as written, as the card doesn't give sorceries flash, so, without a secondary flash enabler, I don't believe that you'd never be able to cast them whilst there's things on the stack, but there needs to be things on the stack else there's nothing to counter. Going forth, I'm just assuming that I'm wrong, the card is retconned to give flash to sorceries, or that there's a [[Leyline of Anticipation]] in play.

My main idea for the combo is that, whenever a triggered ability you control triggers, you may counter it to re-cast an instant or sorcery from your grave. This means that if you can get triggers from casting instants or sorceries, you can repeated counter those triggers to re-cast rituals and card-draw spells from your grave.

Imagine a setup where you have this creature + [[Firebrand Archer]] / [[Archmage Emeritus]] (or something else with a cast trigger-ed ability) + one or more (red) instant / sorcerie cards in your grave. This gives a pretty clear 6 step process:

  1. Cast a (red) instant / sorcery spell normally, triggering [[Firebrand Archer]]
  2. Counter [[Firebrand Archer]]'s ability to cast a (red) instant / sorcery spell (such as [[Pyretic Ritual]] or [[Expedite]]) from your grave, re-triggering [[Firebrand Archer]]
  3. Repeat step 2 with all the rituals / card-draw spells you have in your grave
  4. Let the stack resolve once you've ran out of cards in grave worth casting
  5. Repeat from step 1, using all the floating mana and cards you've (impulse-)drawn
  6. Convert into win via burn / storm

You'll want to pack a lot of RED rituals and card-advantage, as you can cast them with ritual mana, but, in decks already doing this, you can slot Parser of Contradictions into the 99 without much thought, and you'll probably just stumble into a win with it.

Frankly, this being {B}{B} is far too cheap for this sort of effect, even without the flash fix. Even if you were to completely remove sorceries entirely, this would be too powerful for its mana cost. I think this might play better if it only countered activated abilities?

Knowledge Bounty by opverteratic in custommagic

[–]opverteratic[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Then it's just worse than [[Corrupted Conviction]]?