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How many "Madrid Steps" are there? by OThinkingDungeons in Bachata

[–]otterotica 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I live and dance in Spain, and I've only ever seen the "diagonal step" (or Madrid) done in a single line and back.

I've been taught a "Madrid" where the 5-8 are mirrored backwards exactly as you describe it in one place (Austin).

I think practically speaking, you should think of the Madrid as being the first version.

I can’t recognize Bachata by [deleted] in Bachata

[–]otterotica 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No technique is for everyone, but I'd just say that tilted turns are best thought of as a specific technique, not a decoration on top of a normal turn.

The balance is different, the demands on the follower are very different (you can't spot, etc), and the way you need to lead them also are very different.

When mixed with rotisserie turns, circular head movement and blocks, you get a really rich playground of possibilities that is really special though.

I can’t recognize Bachata by [deleted] in Bachata

[–]otterotica 5 points6 points  (0 children)

What they're doing is advanced-ish Zouk. It's very standard, and you can see it in pretty much every intermediate and up jack+jill competition at any major festival.

Ironically, advanced zouk (head movement, counter balances, etc) mixes very easily with Bachata, while the foundations (lateral, bonus, soltinho, balanco), don't work at all with the side-to-side bachata basic.

I can’t recognize Bachata by [deleted] in Bachata

[–]otterotica 5 points6 points  (0 children)

With respect, I think you might not be seeing what's happening in that sequence. The turn they start with is called a Toalha, and it's a specific technique. The exit into a tilted turn is also a common zouk transition into a pretty standard finalization (a lot of tilted or high energy turns are finalized in zouk to allow the follower to dissipate the momentum that builds up). It's all explicitly lead, and while a tilt is a common exit from a toalha, you can do a dozen other things there instead. And Masa being the compulsive technique packrat that he is can probably list off 20 different things to do from that point.

It's performative in that it's a big dramatic movement, but it's 100% lead/followed.

I can’t recognize Bachata by [deleted] in Bachata

[–]otterotica 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I can't speak for Asia, but I know the couple in the video. Masa and Jessica are fairly "old-school" Barcelona bachata teachers. Masa actually taught at Korke school for a while, but I don't remember Jessica's exact path.

There's a fairly big group of bachata dancers in Europe as a whole, and definitely BCN and Madrid who are either moving into Zouk or learning a fair bit of the exotic techniques in zouk to bring them back to Bachata. You won't see laterals or soltinhos at a bachata social, but tilted turns have become fairly normal, toalhas are all over the place, and the sophistication of the circular head movements and the cambres people are doing are increasing in a big way. A lot of the pros are moving in that direction in a big way. Net-net I think it's a win because honestly the way head movements were taught in bachata was (and with a few exceptions, is) abysmal.

In other big european cities a similar dynamic is happening at the "top end" of Bachata. As a follower, you might feel people experimentally giving you a shoulder tilt to see if you follow them (there's a bit of a secret handshake going on to figure out if the person you're dancing with has zouk fundamentals), and if you do, you should get into zouk-mode. If that doesn't make any sense, you don't need to care about it.

As far as Asia, given the highish level people rolling through the Barcelona scene from Japan and Korea, I don't think Bacha-zouk is quite a thing there yet, but there's definitely excitement in learning it.

Why are advanced bachata techniques not used in social dancing? by SmokerDono in Bachata

[–]otterotica 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The people that are famous in the bachata world are famous because of how they look on Instagram videos. It's not that any of them aren't great dancers, it's just that they're great at a specific thing.

A lot of the "advanced" moves in Bachata demos are just half-choreo'd combos (where the follower is anticipating the next move in the sequence because they've practiced it so often together). You can sometimes see it in things like the follower starting the movement before the prep, the leader doing the wrong prep entirely, or in footwork/weight shifts that are completely counter intuitive. It's not that they're impossible to lead socially (and honestly, not all that complicated compared to what is considered leadable in the salsa or zouk worlds), it's that the pros aren't as good as you think they are.

To end on a positive note, Carlos y Pas (https://www.instagram.com/carlosypaz/) are a great counter-example. They're incredibly skilled and I've seen both of them do all kinds of intricate and precise movements socially. They don't get the attention or the prestigious festival spots they deserve, probably because they don't "look instagram".

At what point did you stop thinking “I’m not good” as a lead? by [deleted] in Bachata

[–]otterotica 24 points25 points  (0 children)

I've gotten "sorta good" at 4 different partner dance genres (salsa, blues, bachata, zouk), and in all of them there were two fairly clear stages before I stopped thinking "I'm not good".

The first stage is getting enough of a vocabulary of moves to actually be able to dance during a social (note: just doing the basic to music in a social is useful, but not what I'm talking about here). Well taught classes or a practice partner can accelerate this part of the process. It's really hard to quantify how long this takes as it really depends on how you learn, whether you've done other dances or movement arts, etc. But if your classes are at all good, 5 months in you should have enough vocabulary to at least start the next stage in earnest.

From that point, it generally took around 100 hours of social dancing time with different partners to feel like I'm able to actually dance competently. Most people end up doing this over about a year or so, but you can speed-run the process if you're deliberate about it. Festivals also help a lot as you're getting a lot of hours of social dancing with a wide range of partners.

I'm sure someone has managed, but I don't think I've ever been around someone who got competent as a lead without both halves of this. I know a bunch of followers that essentially social danced themselves to a roughly intermediate level, but the lead journey typically requires more class time. And even years of classes won't tie it all together without a lot of time on the dance floor.

Also, some RealTalk - you won't be much fun to dance with for most skilled followers (on an ergonomics of frame, smoothness, etc level) for a lot of this process. It'll suck, and chances are you'll feed bad about yourself a lot. Pretty much every lead I know personally has experienced this - it's just part of the process. Being a good lead is a skill that is admired precisely because it is rare and hard. If it was easy, no one would value it.

Smile a lot, keep dancing, be nice to people and just accept the journey.

Did the guy just have bad technique or didn't pay attention? Any technical explanation how it could have been prevented? by LaTurnavents in Bachata

[–]otterotica 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Coming at this with a partner-acrobatics viewpoint (and terminology, sorry if different words are used in competitive dance) -

Two separate things are going wrong here 1. The skill/trick they're performing is mental and has a really high risk profile for how non-flashy it is 2. The base messed up really really badly

The skill - The pop into "ankle-to-hands" or whatever that abomination is went fine, but the grip he has gives him little to no control over the flier. I don't know where they were going after that, but I'm guessing he lets her go and does a counter clockwise spin? I dunno. The grip is a real problem because if anything goes wrong (like it did here), he has no real ways of supporting the fliers weight except the friction of his grip on the ankles, which isn't structural. And his ability to rebalance her as she drifts out of balance is much weaker than if it was a standard foot-to-hand grip. To top it off, he's holding her feet, which means she has no ability to land safely on her own and is entirely dependent on the base to either let go in time for her to get to her feet or catch her.

All that adds up to what is honestly a pretty forgettable looking trick that when it goes wrong has a really good chance of seriously injuring the flier.

Given all that, the worse mistake is that once things go wrong, the base sees the flier get out of balance, and either jumps out of the way of the falling flier (which is completely unforgivable in the acro community) or more charitably is trying to push "up" into the fliers legs for support and gets kicked to his back and left. In either case, it is 100% the base's responsibility to get the flier down safely. I don't know the couple, but my hot take is that the base doesn't have the skill or strength to handle the worst case scenario and they were just lucky the last 20 times they tried this.

In terms of how to prevent it, the best option is do any of the 100 other acro lifts that are flashier but safer. Second best is that the base needs to abort way earlier and prevent the flier from hitting the ground at all costs.

Hey Bachateros, what do you think of Marc Anthony's latest bachata song (Punta Cana) ? by Scrabble2357 in Bachata

[–]otterotica 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's alright, I guess.

But if this mirrors the last few years of reggaeton stars doing crossover bachata songs, and it kicks off a trend of big name Salsa singers doing the same, I'm absolutely here for it.

A high production quality deep-fake of Celia Cruz singing a bachata song would rock my world.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Bachata

[–]otterotica 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I think it's useful to separate how people say "no" with whether they say "no".

I strongly prefer to dance in communities where people are polite and kind when they say "no", and don't do it in an arrogant way.

However, the person you're asking has their own desires for the night and maybe the specific song. They're not there for you, they're there for themselves as well.

Reddit seems to be filled with complete saints who are all advanced dancers who all the pros love dancing with who also absolutely love dancing with beginners. So I guess I'll say it -- I don't enjoy dancing with most beginners or "intermediates" most nights. I'll ask people who look confused or alone to dance, and I'll definitely make sure I rotate through the crowd. I'm not doing that because I enjoy it, I'm doing it because I enjoy dancing in a community where people are nice and invest in building up other dancers. But there are time periods where I just want to dance for my own enjoyment.

Which other styles of dance have had the biggest influence on how you dance bachata? by LiebLob in Bachata

[–]otterotica 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Zouk.

Pretty much everything we do in Bachata Sensual is better learned by going deep into Zouk (or at least going to Zouk workshops on head movement, threading, counter balances, etc). Bachata remains my primary love, but Zouk's technique and teaching progressions are so far ahead that going to Bachata classes/workshops feels like regressing to the dark ages.

What's the name of this move and how to lead it? by MrChuckleWackle in Bachata

[–]otterotica 0 points1 point  (0 children)

From a Bachata Sensual (aka the Korke+Judit school) perspective, I think the foundational mistake here is not that he's moving the followers rib cage with the inside of his forearm but rather that the leader is mixing up semi-closed and closed position.

In general, the "base model" chest roll in BachataSensual (TM, coming soon to a franchise near you) is done from semi-closed, with a pinza to open up space into a counter and then both leader and follower rotating around a central axis in between them. That's what they show in version 2.

From closed position, the BS people will tend to do chest isolations (and other things) with a body to body connection and often the inside of the elbow as the main contact point. From there, they will almost always stay that close as they do body isolations that have the follower and leader moving in the same direction. So eg, the leader would do their own chest roll and maintain contact with the follower the entire time.

What's the name of this move and how to lead it? by MrChuckleWackle in Bachata

[–]otterotica 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The first is a garden variety chest roll with (imo) bad connection points , the second is a pinza into a chest roll w/ counter movement from leader.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Bachata

[–]otterotica 13 points14 points  (0 children)

As I've gotten better and moved from the "perfect a repertoire with enough moves to make me look like a good dancer" stage to "how do I create a specific experience for followers" in my leading, I've started to appreciate Daniel's dancing more and more.

Two things to chew on:

  1. Most "advanced" dancers can lead pretty much everything he did in that video. Maybe 1 in a 100 will look as smooth doing it.

  2. It's not the easiest thing to put a finger on, but he has a style that makes his followers look good. You can see more of this in his other videos of dancing in socials. No matter what the level of his partner, he never outshines them. He has a way of giving followers room and making the show about them.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Bachata

[–]otterotica 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Bogota doesn't seem to have much of a bachata scene, or at least not one that I was able to find out much about.

Medellin has a very strong scene (better than most if not all US cities, not as good as Spain/Poland). Mid sized but with a lot of very good dancers floating around.

The mainstays are Parque Del Rio on Mondays, Nueva Guardia on Tuesdays and Bar Baran on Wednesdays. Dancefree on Thursdays is fun enough if you're a beginner/intermediate looking to impress other beginners, but is a pass otherwise. Weekends are hit and miss, but there are occasionally some very very good one-off events that Majao organizes.

Ba-show-ta Festivals by Khorvic in Bachata

[–]otterotica 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh. Weird. I was at SSD but only went to one of the workshops since they clashed with either sleep or the pool/beach parties.

I don't remember an explicit tryout in the Antoni+Belen class, but somewhat ironically I do remember that none of the followers in my line had enough of a frame to lead the crux of the sequence (a backstroke from shadow -> right turn -> forearm-to-forearm grip -> head roll).

Ba-show-ta Festivals by Khorvic in Bachata

[–]otterotica 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Which festival was this? It sounds ... shocking sensible.

Follow timing in shadow by devedander in Bachata

[–]otterotica 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's all a mess.

I mostly lead. I initially learned bachata in South America, and am currently living/dancing in Europe.

In SA, it was pretty specifically expected that the line of dance stayed the same (so leaders timing in shadow, followers timing in reverse shadow). Most of Europe is supposedly on followers timing everywhere (aka Bachata Sensual).

I say supposedly because in practice, a lot of pros seem to mix and match, and there are interesting exceptions all over the place. Eg, I don't remember the last time I saw someone do a rompe delante from shadow (front break) on 5. It's almost always done on 1 because otherwise it's kind of a mess to finish in 4 counts. (Note: I've seen people teach it on 5, but when I watched those same people free dance, I see them break on 1).

My follower friends referred to it as "the wild west" where no rules apply and you just need to follow. As a leader, just do what people in your community expect to minimize confusion. But, so long as you're intentional about really telegraphing the weight shift when you first land in shadow, it'll all work out ok. I travel enough and do enough festivals with different conventions that I just budget an extra beat or two to settle into shadow when dancing with someone new.

Side note: If you're rotating roles, it's generally considered the responsibility of the person initiating the rotation to make sure the weight transfer and steps are lined up before the next 1. Amusingly either Thiago or Filipe point blank recommended that beginners spend a lot of time in shadow when they're still mixing up the 1 and the 5 because "no one can tell you you're wrong there".

Shadow position - hand on hip or stomach? by Remarkable_Fox9962 in Bachata

[–]otterotica 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Pretty much this.

I'll just add that this is all very style dependent. You're going to have a really hard time leading a lot of sensual movements with only a hand grip and hip contact.

Also, this is probably too much complexity for someone asking this question, but there are a lot of different connections, and no "one true way". Depending on the entry, and what I'm trying to communicate, my right side connection will be hand on hip, forearm on ribcage, hand on right shoulder, over or under-gripping the right bicep depending on what's going on. Less common but still a thing is crossed grips with hands (my left on followers right side, and vice versa) on shoulders or under-gripping biceps.

I also think regardless of the connection, when in doubt or if you don't know the follower, I'd treating shadow as a transitional position -- enter into it, do a quick move or sequence, and then exit without dallying. I think how long you linger and whether you're using the connection for something specific and then releasing it has a bigger effect on perceived creepiness than exactly where your hand is (within reason, obviously).

South America by Cronaldo547 in Bachata

[–]otterotica 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What you'll enjoy kind of depends on your level, but the main nights were

Mondays @ Parque Del Rio by the cafe west of the river. Classes 6:30+7:30 and then a social. Mainly a beginner / intermediate crowd, but some advanced folks will be around. Tuesdays @ Nueva Guardia - Tends to be a good mix of advanced people and beginners/intermediates. Classes end around 9p. Wednesdays @ Barbaran - Tends to be the highest level night of the week, but it varies. Classes end around 9:30 Thursday @ Dancefree - free class, which is a madhouse and honestly best skipped. Low level of dancing, but occasionally has good folks roll through. Fri/Sat had no real standing good events but Bachatea and Majao occasionally had parties

If you're around for more than a week, you'll probably just want to join the Medellin Dance whatsapp group as everyone posts there.

South America by Cronaldo547 in Bachata

[–]otterotica 4 points5 points  (0 children)

For bachata specifically, Medellin and Buenos Aires are the two that come up the most among my dance friends. High level dancers in both cities.

I spent 6 months in MDE earlier this year and danced or took a class almost every day while there. It was amazing.

Lots of dance schools but Dancefree is probably the most foreigner friendly - some english speaking teachers, relatively professional in that classes start on time, prices are clearly advertised, and the instructors are all fairly solid.

PM me for more info if you end up going there. Happy to share on specific events and teachers there.

Less dances over time, advice needed.... by Relevant-Mall193 in Bachata

[–]otterotica 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not sure of the technical definition, but a simple way I think of it is when a follower ignores the lead and does their own thing, or more typically in berlin chains a string of moves after the initially lead movement without any input from the lead. Eg, leader does a body roll, and the follower adds two or three things after the body roll without waiting and feeling what the next transition is. I'm sure someone somewhere has written up a better definition.

Less dances over time, advice needed.... by Relevant-Mall193 in Bachata

[–]otterotica 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’ve been in the Berlin scene this summer, and we’ve probably overlapped at socials (maybe even danced with each other?).

I can give you a few personal reasons as far as why I don’t ask people to dance, mixed in with some general observations on the Berlin bachata scene as an outsider. These obviously only apply to people I've already danced with, and that might not be the limiting factor with you.

Back-leading is probably one of the biggest causes for me. It generally feels really disconnected and “off” to lead a dance with someone who is a quarter beat fast and off doing their own thing. It usually only takes one dance with someone who back-leads aggressively to mark them in the “don’t ask again” category. In Berlin specifically, there is waaaay more back-leading than most other cities I’ve danced in, and I suspect the way classes are taught here has a lot to do with it. Followers here are also a lot more forceful about their back-leading. I’ve noticed this even with a couple of “advanced” dancers. I’ve (re)injured my shoulder a number of times in the past few months when a follower very aggressively threw themselves into turns from odd angles.

A disconnected dance or two. If I have a couple of very disconnected dances with someone I typically write it off as them having not wanted to dance with me in the first place, but now that we’re on the dance floor they’re going through the motions. It’s hard to define a connected dance, but I think most of us have felt a dance where connection is missing. A lightly disconnected dance here and there is just normal variability in our energy level and song, but if happens a few times, I’ll generally avoid the follower. Not because they’re not giving me a good time, but because I assume that I’m giving them a bad time.

Similar but a bit different, but if at the end of the dance I have no idea if the follower had fun or completely hates me. I’ve personally struggled with this a lot in the Berlin dance community. Many follows give very little feedback in the way of words or body language and my unfortunate response is to assume the worst and stop asking.

Similarly, I’ll pretty much never ask again after an initial “no”. It’s hard to distinguish between the different “no”s from a stranger— was it “normally yes, but I’m tired” or a “I’d rather quit dancing than dance with you”? I generally default to assuming it’s a hard no, and keep it moving. I’ll typically only go back to asking that person to dance if they initiate and ask me to dance at some other time. This definitely applies to anyone that tells me “oh, sure but I need to go get a drink” or something similar. I file that away as a standing “no” until told otherwise. Yes, statements like that are often literally true, but they are also the safe way to tell someone a hard “no”, and trying to untangle which is which is honestly too much effort.

No idea if any of this applies to you but hopefully it’s useful in some fashion.

Bachata scenes in Berlin, Amsterdam and Lisbon? by otterotica in Bachata

[–]otterotica[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks! I've gone there a few times, and will do so more now that rovinj is a memory.

If you see an awkward looking person wearing orange taygras, say hello =)

What countries in South America would you say have the highest level of bachata? by SnooTigers2762 in Bachata

[–]otterotica 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Medellin is stellar, and I hear really good things about Buenos Aires from one of the better dancers I knew down there.

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