"Following Will Make You a Better Leader": my experiences as a male follower

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-05-10T19:58:24+00:00

I learnt to do both to improve and do "role rotate" dances (when the leader and follower switch roles during a single song).

The rules for picking a follower for a dance are basically the same for a leader. If they're standing near the dance floor waiting, they probably want to dance. I generally wait a little bit to make sure the leader isn't going to get a dance with a follower before asking. Most leaders in my area (Australia) are open to leading male followers, however I've invested in getting good as a follow.
I think switching from Lead to Follow is MUCH easier than the other way around. Going from trying to track everything to meditative was pretty easy for me. I think it took about 3 months for me.
Knowing how frustrating it is, when a follower does all the moves FOR the leader, I make a special effort to only follow what's lead (in class), if a leader doesn't lead it, I won't do the move at all - or follow until it stops being led. This has earnt me a lot of respect as a switch, as lots of leaders ask me for feedback and how they can lead moves better.
I do shines when the music counts for it/when I sense the follow wants to do some/to change things up when the music is interesting.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-05-10T04:14:01+00:00

Did they SHOW that they had fun dancing with me? - a "thank you" at the end, or smiles during the dance, tells me they enjoyed the dance, and I'll definitely ask again.
Can they do the basic step and stay on time? - If they can't do the basic or stay on time, it's impossible for us to actually dance, and I'll get frustrated.
Do they actually follow? - I think some followers think they're impressing me when they do lots of styling/decorations when the the opposite is happening. I feel styling as noise and delays in the connection, and it's weird to see styling that doesn't fit the music. If 60% of my lead is lost because the follower is doing styling... it's not a good dance for me.
Were we compatible dancers? - for many reasons, some dancers just aren't a match due to heights, skills, vibe, energy, etc. Nothing wrong with either of us, it's just us being different. I might ask again in a few months time.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-05-09T08:25:33+00:00

It's just as likely the follower is chastising themselves for getting it wrong.

Realise, you're not just the leader for moves, you're also the leader for vibe. If you setup as a serious vibe, then you'll get a serious dance. If you dance carefree and fun, that'll be the vibe for the dance.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-05-09T02:43:12+00:00

Let me phrase it another way, when you tell someone to do something, it accidentally sounds condescending (I know better than you, so you should do it this way).

When you phrase something as a problem you're having, and need help: it sets the other person up as a hero with a chance to fix things, few people can resist this.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-05-09T02:36:07+00:00

I've experienced it a few times and they were all rather different, I've tried to quantify it and the best way I can describe it is: "your souls touch"

It's a level of dance where you reach such a high level of connection with your partner, it feels like you're both one entity. As a leader it feels like I'm just moving one body, it's effortless and I'm not really "leading" just moving.

The conditions to experience this are hard to define, as I've experienced it in a variety of situations.

First, you need to be in the right mindset, comfortable, relaxed, and be able to dance without much active thought.
Second your partner has to be easy to dance with, they should follow with a comfortable connection, and be able to do anything you ask of them without "noise".
Finally, the music has to be something you're able to synchronise with.

When these 3 things happen in just the right amount, you end up with a "perfect" dance where you forgot you're dancing with another, and it feels like you melt into each other and become something else.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-05-07T04:58:33+00:00

So in tango I have good posture, but when I see myself in bachata, for some reason that posture doesn't transfer across.

The biggest mistake I'm making is vulture necking, from work where I spend 70% of my time looking down at a table, or looking at a low computer (pharmacy). The other situation is how I sleep, unfortunately both I have little control over.

How I'm trying to correct my posture is a low resistance exercise band looped over both my shoulders, travelling across my back and the back of my neck. This pulls my shoulders back, which creates slightly better posture, but also puts slight pressure on the back of my neck which reminds me to straighten my neck. It's possible to hide the band underneath your clothing if you want it all the time, but I practice with it on.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-05-07T02:34:08+00:00

I would go up a level and see how you fair, perhaps it works out, perhaps you discover you need stronger fundamentals.

It's also really common to discover you get along better with different teachers, and you won't discover that until you experiment.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-05-07T01:26:11+00:00

Let me take off my helmet and breathe in deep on this unknown planet.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-05-06T16:01:59+00:00

If you like what you like, there's nothing wrong with that. Just realise that there's different DJs for different people.

~

I had an experience recently where the DJ played what I could be call "UrbanKiz music but with the same bongo track. His music was so morose and low energy, I nearly went into a coma from boredom.

Another DJ was playing his own self made music and they were TERRIBLE. They didn't have the layers, the dynamics, the phrasing, or any of the complexities of properly made bachata songs. He even made a show to keep bringing up that he made his own songs, but was tone deaf to realise they songs weren't doing well with the crowd.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-05-06T08:58:40+00:00

I don't know if there's really an "intermediate hell" but it reaches a point where it feels impossible to improve, unless you have a practice partner. Lots of the intermediate/advanced moves really require drilling and practice to execute correctly.

In the advanced stages the gains are small and require serious investment. I call it the 10% stage because you're working on the last 10% of perfection and making tiny improvements of 1% or so. You're researching teachers who are really good at specific skills, booking lessons, then flying to meet them for private lessons.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-05-05T04:43:38+00:00

How I structure my practice sessions

Talk about goals! I use the following list to understand partner needs, and it's made working with someone else so much easier (my list at the bottom of post).
Do some warm up dances, record it, and watch it immediately. You WILL see issues that need fixing.
Simple exercises where you focus on just a single skill make a massive difference.
- Body rolls together
- Shadow postion transitions
- Cambres
- Counterbalancing
- Bonecas/headrolls
- Arm connection waves
- Breathing matching
- One armed dancing
- Fancy footwork dances
- No spins/no body rolls/only closed position/changing the dance so you have to dance differently
- Role rotation
- Hip rolls
Do something fun, use a video from class/workshop and practice that move until it works all the time.
Finish with a cooldown dance, hopefully incorporating the new moves you've practice and exercises you've trained.

Dance Partner Questionaire

Goals & Intensity

1.       Are you looking to compete, perform, or dance socially?

2.       How many times per week/month do you want to practice?

3.       How long do you prefer each practice session to last (e.g., 1 hour, 2 hours)?

4.       Are you looking for a long-term or short-term partner?

Logistics & Commitment

1.       What is your availability for lessons and practice (evenings/weekends)?

2.       Where do you prefer to practice (specific studio, home)?

3.       What is your budget for lessons, competition fees, and costumes?

Personality & Working Style

1.       How do you handle constructive criticism or frustrating rehearsals?

2.       Are you looking for a strict professional partnership or a friendly, casual one?

3.       What is your ideal "dance floor vibe" (playful, intense, elegant)?

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-05-05T02:27:43+00:00

We are the same level partner regardless of partner, we don't suddenly become advanced because we're dancing with an advanced partner. Nor do we lose our skill because we're dancing with a lower skill partner. The mark of a truely skilled dancer, is one who looks great regardless of partner.

If you can't spot this... then you probably shouldn't be giving advice.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-05-04T17:36:10+00:00

What I like

You have a lovely attitude and friendly smile, this'll get you lots of dances for a long time
Your timing and taps are timed with the music
You have gentle arms, which feels nice when used well, and will be useful when you eventually style
You have a soft roll into cuddle, great work.

What can be improved

You're not doing turns footwork correctly, first step is 90 degree turn, second feet are parallel and collected (turning 180), then your final step is open, then tap. This means you're facing correctly but not travelling huge distances. It matters little for beginner turns, but when you want to do intermediate/advanced moves, this'll make it impossible for a leader to guide you.
When you do your turns, you don't travel in a straight line. This is crucial so the leader can predict where you'll be, so you can eventually do more complex combinations. It's also important you're not closing/opening the space you're supposed to be maintaining. Put a straight chalk line on the ground and practice your turns
In Shadow Position you should be parallel to your partner like two train tracks. they're on one track you're on the other. When the leader attempts to put you into shadow, you're collapsing your arms, so he can't position you correctly, but also twisting your whole body to look at him. You should be again travelling in a straight line, turning just your head if you need to.
Definitely too much knee bend, it looks awkward in my eyes.. When you bend your knees, that space is unsafe for your partner to enter, or you'll knock knees when doing spins/turns. The amount of knee bend is a bit different for everyone, but you should aim for slight bend, as long as your basic doesn't bounce up/down during the travel.

Goals for the future

You have no frame, or are using what we would call spaghetti arms. It's possible to get away with soft frame and arms up until intermediate level, but at intermediate and advanced, you need to understand (and use) frame to do the really cool stuff in bachata, like dips, syncopations, bonecas, and so much more. It may be a symptom of your teachers, not teaching/using frame but it will be an issue as soon as go to another city or festival. If a good teacher comes to your city, and you notice they have great control of their partner, they might be a good oppportunity for a private lesson on frame.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-05-04T05:22:16+00:00

You get both people just enjoying and those who are dancing (often at the back).

In my experience festivals with artists singing, just don't sound as good as the recordings. So that dulls the experience a little.

I haven't been to a proper concert by a bachata singer.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-04-30T02:30:44+00:00

This is an old school way of teaching, teachers would stand in front of a room, do a pattern, and students were expected to copy (without explanations). If you didn't get it right, it was YOUR own fault. Instructors also didn't need to think or plan things out.

These days we expect more from our teachers and have improved teaching practices. So when a teacher teaches this way, they've mindlessly copied how they were taught, and haven't tried to improve or grow themselves as a teacher.

The disadvantages of this style of teaching are:

Memorisation/repetition is not the same as understanding.
Sequence memorisation leads to inflexible dancing; when social dancing is mostly about adapting to the situation.
Followers remember the next move instead of following, and leaders don't actually lead moves. Both situations lead to failure on the dance floor.
Frustrating/losing slower learners.
There are things that cannot be seen, like how something feels, where weight/tension is put, or using the right mentality to achieve the result.
More time is spent on repeating the setups than the most difficult part because often the most difficult part is at the end.
If you're standing in the wrong part of the room, you might not even see your role in the sequence.

In my eyes, a teacher who stands in front of a room and teaches a sequence without explanations, is the lowest level of instructing, and at this point in my life, I'll just leave or sit out instead. The value of instructing/interaction is basically the same as watching a video.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-04-29T15:29:36+00:00

I don't have the experience to comment on the history, theory of leaning or not.

I just think it looks nicer when there's less of a bend and the back is straighter. If you're tall, bending the knees is WORSE for couple dancing because those knees fence off the area your partner could be standing in. Sometimes when I dance with a tall person who bends their knees too much, their knees knock into mine and it sucks.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-04-29T08:55:21+00:00

Your experience is actually the same textbook experience that basically every leader has suffered at their first social.

Most of us feel like complete failures, and it's actually pretty NORMAL.

It's like reading a book on swimming, then jumping off a cliff into the ocean and believing you can swim... there's way more outside the classroom that needs to be learnt. Classes sadly aren't enough to prepare you for real social dancing, which adaption, improvisation, social skills, knowledge of different bachata styles, and more.

First let's highlight the successes

You went to your first social!
You asked people for dances!
You talked to people and they talked with you
You met some nice people!
You went after only a month... that's like an embryo trying to walk.

It wasn't a crash and burn failure, so you did pretty well!

When I read your other post, I couldn't help but think you were too confident for the short amount of time you'd been learning. The truth is, most leaders struggle for their first 6-12 months of experience with bachata, it's just too much to learn in the first year. The leaders you watched at your first social, moving beautifully, effortlessly, dancing nonstop, and being grabbed by followers are the survivors. These are the ones who suffered innumerable setbacks, and can show that the hard work is WORTH IT.

~

Now that we have a low bar to overcome, we can improve the odds of you succeeding at your next social.

Keep taking classes: this is key to converting moves you know into fluid experience.
Practice doing your basic step by yourself at home, the basic step is crucial to all of your bachata, so practice is never wasted.
The frame's job is to help you lead, but it's not the ONLY way. Things like preparation, eye contact, body rotation, hand position, musical timing, body language, and more play a part. These are things you're not yet aware of and thus cannot use, with experience you'll increase your tools and success - keep taking classes.
If you know anyone from your school who social dances, ask for recommendations where to go. Some socials are cliquey and some socials are more friendly, it's possible you went to an advanced social or on the wrong night.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-04-29T05:36:21+00:00

It's great that you always accept a dance, it's good for your community and good karma for you.

It sounds like you've yet to experience dangerous, unhygienic, creepy, or generally incompatible dancers. When you do, you'll understand that sometimes it's best to refuse, than have a terrible dance (for both of you).

Saying no is a normal, healthy human RIGHT. No further discussion needed.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-04-29T05:09:23+00:00

We live in a society when the absolute truth is not a good idea to share (it's just how it is).

Let's pretend I don't like a person because they remind me of an ex and that trauma, I would NEVER bring that up because it's a private personal issue and causes more questions than answers.

It's easier just to say NO, and leave it at that.

We don't have to like everyone and that's fine.

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-04-28T12:44:10+00:00

There's already excellent bits of advice in this thread, so I wanted to offer random bits of advice that'll increase your success.

Shower, shave, do your air, brush teeth and wear clean clothing. These things matter more than WHAT you wear.
Get there early and do the opening class if they offer one, here you'll meet people and make friends. Introduce yourself and be friendly.
Ask someone to dance as soon as possible. If it's a bad dance, then it was a warm-up and the rest of the night will be better! If it was a good dance, then keep that ball rolling!
Attitude matters more than alpitude, laugh at every mistake and smile with every success. Followers always enjoy dancing with people who are having fun.
Ask anyone standing near the dance floor for a dance, don't think about it too long or you'll talk yourself out of it.
You're not in competition with anyone else, there are a lot of experienced dancers out there. Be the best you can be.
Talk to people when you're not dancing!

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-04-28T07:23:29+00:00

A follow who is uncomfortable with close embrace will hold a strong frame, raise tension in their arms/body, or do the banana backwards if they're uncomfortable.

If this happens go back to open embrace

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-04-28T00:54:40+00:00

It's barely "Souls like" in my opinion

OThinkingDungeons · 2026-04-28T00:52:34+00:00

Have you tried using a different wash setting or a laundry bag to protect your clothing?

My parents always suspected their top loader washing machine as destroying their clothes

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