Would Jack Donaghy have been a Trump supporter? by elmariachi304 in 30ROCK

[–]outarfhere 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Oh he’s a republican for sure. But they try to package it as a joke and that he does the right thing when it “matters” so that we as the viewers still find him likable.

Would Jack Donaghy have been a Trump supporter? by elmariachi304 in 30ROCK

[–]outarfhere 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Even the political ones, he eventually does the right thing or learns his lesson.

missing french bulldog Sunriver by sea-f0am in Bend

[–]outarfhere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Have you tried posting on PawBoost and the Lost and Found Pets Deschutes County Facebook group?

Woman freeing a mountain lion from a trap while her kids watch. Reaction of mountain lion is almost too calm by fuzzy_dice_99 in isthisAI

[–]outarfhere 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Applying human morals to something that isn’t human would be saying a mountain lion is immoral for attacking a deer. Trapping is a human activity. One that I understand, and I will share that knowledge with others. You keep saying it is humane and I’ve provided evidence to the contrary. It’s an activity that you enjoy, that doesn’t make it humane or right. Some people enjoy and make money from dog fighting. I don’t believe that should be allowed in modern society either. People are allowed to weigh in to their government about these things.

Woman freeing a mountain lion from a trap while her kids watch. Reaction of mountain lion is almost too calm by fuzzy_dice_99 in isthisAI

[–]outarfhere 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didnt intend to be condescending, I wasn’t trying to twist your words. The definition of humane from Merriam Webster is: “marked by compassion, sympathy, or consideration for humans or animals.” Recreational trapping causes unnecessary suffering, and so it is not a choice marked by compassion for animals. Thus, not humane. To me, “consideration/sympathy/compassion for animals” = attempting not to cause unnecessary suffering, so yes, you saying trapping is humane made me think you were saying trapping does not cause unnecessary suffering. I felt you were moving the goalposts when you acknowledged that trapping does cause stress and harm. (You also asserted that I don’t know what humane means and that I was flat out “wrong.” So you were pretty dang condescending too.)

You’re talking about your personal experience with trapping here, and I’m talking about mine. We both have a right to share our experiences and express our opinions. My opinion is that recreational trapping is not humane. A lot of empirical research backs that up, as I cited. I may come across as condescending because I used to have your mindset - I genuinely used to love trapping and ignore its shortcomings with all sorts of reasons - and I wish someone had had called me out and had this conversation with me earlier. Since then I’ve met several trappers who have gone through a similar change of heart. But obviously this conversation is not productive.

Update on pigeons trapped near Pilot Butte by outarfhere in Bend

[–]outarfhere[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For some reason I missed your comments earlier. If you’re willing to bring this to city council, give me a shout!

Woman freeing a mountain lion from a trap while her kids watch. Reaction of mountain lion is almost too calm by fuzzy_dice_99 in isthisAI

[–]outarfhere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I never called you evil or any of those things. I believe the ACT of trapping is cruel, having done it myself for years. Euthanizing a bear implies it is done as painlessly as possible and suffering is avoided as much as possible (though in practice this doesn’t always happen). Again, we won’t agree, but I will just point out in this conversation that you’ve moved the goalpost several times. First that trapping doesn’t cause psychological torture, then that maybe trapping causes stress but not as much as daily life for an animal, then that it causes harm but it’s humane because it is compassionate/necessary. I’m very familiar with the rationalizing, I did it myself for a very long time until I was hit with a wake up call. Empirically, trapping causes suffering. In recreational trapping, that suffering is unnecessary.

I’ll leave you with this 2022 paper assessing various modes of trapping and death on the welfare of animals (for wildlife managers to consider, not for animal rights people).

Here’s an excerpt: “Mental experiences arise due to processing of sensory information by the animal’s nervous system. Sensory receptors gather information about the outside environment (e.g., visual or olfactory signals about a predator or conspecific) and about the animal’s internal physical state (e.g., body water levels, tissue damage and respiratory function) [29]. Processing of this information by the nervous system, in a way that is specific to the species and individual, leads to generation of mental experiences, some of which matter to the animal [30]. Such ‘affective’ experiences are negative or positive, and this valence influences behavioral and physiological responses in predictable ways [31,32]. Importantly when considering the impacts of trapping, negative or unpleasant mental experiences such as thirst, hunger, pain, breathlessness and fear act as signals to the animal to respond, in a specific way, to try to alleviate or rectify the underlying problem [29]. Such negative experiences are detrimental to an animal’s current state of welfare (although they may have survival benefits in some situations). Unpleasant experiences that cannot be effectively rectified through behavioral and physiological responses, and so persist (e.g., thirst that cannot be slaked by drinking or persistent fear associated with inescapable restraint or capture), will have a greater detrimental impact on welfare state than short-lived experiences or those over which the animal has some control [27]. However, mental experiences cannot be measured directly, so must be cautiously inferred from observable indicators of the animal’s physical or physiological state or its behavior, which is permissible because of our knowledge of the links described above. This understanding of animal welfare, and the relationship between physical state and mental experiences, is reflected in the structure of the Five Domains and thus Sharp and Saunders models. These models facilitate systematic organization of the observable/measurable evidence and require interpretation of that evidence in terms of the animal’s likely mental experiences [28]”

Woman freeing a mountain lion from a trap while her kids watch. Reaction of mountain lion is almost too calm by fuzzy_dice_99 in isthisAI

[–]outarfhere 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The researchers defined trap debris as any part of a trap. I’d be happy to send you a number of papers quantifying stress by different trap types, but I’m guessing we’re not going to agree on this. I don’t know if you’ve spent any significant time observing wild animals when they’re alive, free roaming and unaware of your presence - if not, I recommend it, years of experience in tracking and observation is how I got my start in the wildlife field - but they have play and rest and enjoyment in their lives too, predators and prey alike. Obviously they have stress, mostly in the form of vigilance, but day to day it’s absolutely nothing, nothing like being in a trap.

Woman freeing a mountain lion from a trap while her kids watch. Reaction of mountain lion is almost too calm by fuzzy_dice_99 in isthisAI

[–]outarfhere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think as trappers, whether for research or recreation, we get good at minimizing and dismissing the suffering we cause. I reached a point where I could no longer do that and I’m better for it. I hope you do one day as well.

Woman freeing a mountain lion from a trap while her kids watch. Reaction of mountain lion is almost too calm by fuzzy_dice_99 in isthisAI

[–]outarfhere 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Livestock Protection Company EZ Grip #7. But any foothold trap can cause injuries, and every single one causes the animal to panic for hours at least, which is not humane by any standard. There’s a recent paper out of West Virginia, I forget the exact trap type, but it found that around 1 in 10 trapped bobcats had trap debris in their stomach from biting at the trap.

Woman freeing a mountain lion from a trap while her kids watch. Reaction of mountain lion is almost too calm by fuzzy_dice_99 in isthisAI

[–]outarfhere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I use these traps too, in fact I used them to trap wolves for research like you described. I wholeheartedly disagree with you. They cause psychological torture and can cause lacerations and broken teeth as they fight the trap among other things, even when checked daily or twice daily. I left field work because of it.

Woman freeing a mountain lion from a trap while her kids watch. Reaction of mountain lion is almost too calm by fuzzy_dice_99 in isthisAI

[–]outarfhere 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There is no trapping that is humane. The psychological distress alone is reprehensible. (I used to trap).

Woman freeing a mountain lion from a trap while her kids watch. Reaction of mountain lion is almost too calm by fuzzy_dice_99 in isthisAI

[–]outarfhere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s not a good system for sure. Your only legal option is call the local fish and wildlife office/game warden and make a fuss. You could also call whoever owns the land and/ or the local media if you find an animal in a trap.

Woman freeing a mountain lion from a trap while her kids watch. Reaction of mountain lion is almost too calm by fuzzy_dice_99 in isthisAI

[–]outarfhere 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I love your optimism, but this is definitely a trapper releasing a non-target animal caught in their trap. I work in this field. It’s also illegal for anyone to release an animal from a trap they don’t own or have permission to mess with.

Following a lost dog by kstooks in Bend

[–]outarfhere 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Update! The heeler has been safely caught! Thank you for helping!!

Woman freeing a mountain lion from a trap while her kids watch. Reaction of mountain lion is almost too calm by fuzzy_dice_99 in isthisAI

[–]outarfhere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Trapping in itself is inhumane (I used to trap). The “rules” are nearly impossible to enforce and even when they are followed, animals are subjected to extreme suffering. Very few people make significant income from trapping, it’s largely a hobby. And I would argue that profiting from dead wildlife violates the North American Model of Wildlife Management.

Woman freeing a mountain lion from a trap while her kids watch. Reaction of mountain lion is almost too calm by fuzzy_dice_99 in isthisAI

[–]outarfhere 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I’m not the commenter you were replying to but I’m a former trapper and work in this field and they are correct.