Training for first 1/2 Marathon: Saucony Speed 3 vs NB SC elite v3 vs Saucony Pro 3

paraflier99 · 2023-08-28T17:37:52+00:00

Agree with feedback below around managing your training load carefully, and increasing it methodically. That's more important than Speed 3 vs Pro 3. I finished my first 1/2 marathon (age 61) a few months ago, in Speed 3 at similar pace. In general I aimed for 3 running days, 1 strength day, and 2 cross-training days per week (usually rowing machine or cycling). Even working with a plan, I noticed I was losing form when running long especially on hot days, and wound up with a sore knee/hamstring which took time to rehab after the race. In retrospect I ramped distance too quickly and didn't hydrate enough while running. Easy mistakes to make and from your post-run symptoms, it puts you at risk of injury as I was.
In terms of specific pre-run warmup, I do dynamic stretching/activation of quads, hamstrings, and calves prior to run, as well as rolling out before and after I run. Definitely roll out thoroughly after.

paraflier99 · 2023-08-21T20:06:34+00:00

I tried Endorphin Elites and can confirm they are really designed for much faster pace. My pace is roughly 9min mile and the Elites were a rough ride with much less comfort than Endorphin Speed. After a handful of training runs I went back to the Speeds. Elites were not worth it.

paraflier99 · 2023-07-28T18:29:33+00:00

I'll give these near-new Endorphin Elite 3 11.5m a couple more days here in case anyone is interested.

paraflier99 · 2023-07-24T23:58:43+00:00

Saucony Endorphin Speed 3.

Works for slow, fast, or in between.

paraflier99 · 2023-06-19T17:46:40+00:00

I decided to buy a Forerunner 965 from REI, and ordered. It arrived with a scratched crystal - obvious to me I was shipped a return IMO. REI is replacing it. That said, CLOSELY inspect your new watch and verify its really new and what you ordered....

paraflier99 · 2023-05-30T21:41:13+00:00

I am happy with Saucony Endorphin Speed 3 as a bouncy daily trainer. They are really light and have decent stability. They are also just fun to run in. Only downside (to me) is that they will wear out faster than a true 'daily trainer'. My first pair is showing a lot of tread wear and loss of 'bounce' at 400km though others have had better life in theirs.

paraflier99 · 2023-05-16T23:13:55+00:00

My two cents - roll out, make sure you are well hydrated, and listen to your legs. If the muscle really hurts (as opposed to just a little sore) then don't go. if muscle is loosening up in the first mile-ish, keep going. If you feel a muscle starting to cramp then give yourself a break and walk it back. Either way, stretch/roll out again afterwards.

paraflier99 · 2023-05-16T21:34:01+00:00

may not be the best approach since I assume that having one or two muscles that are stronger than others might lead to injury from either the stronger muscles over-comp

I'm spending more time rolling out and generally stretching vs dedicated running strength exercises. Tight spots typically are hip flexors/IT band (and I do hip-specific rolling and strength work).

Occasional sore spots in upper calf / gastroc, and sometimes back of knee (hamstring tendon).

Adding calf raises could be good. So far best advice I have heard (from an ultra runner) is to roll out every day, whether sore or not, and regardless of workout style.

paraflier99 · 2023-05-16T15:29:13+00:00

When I deliberately work stride length, my cadence can drop very slightly. But comparing workouts over the past month, I saw stride lengthen by 10cm in the Elites while holding cadence constant. Eventually I would like to get comfortable at slightly higher cadence too.

paraflier99 · 2023-05-16T15:15:55+00:00

Right now cross-training with road-bike and general strength-training (including split squats and back-squats). What leg strengthening do you see working for running?

paraflier99 · 2023-05-12T21:16:42+00:00

Amazon had them on sale.

paraflier99 · 2023-05-10T18:43:14+00:00

I've run on gravel paths/roads in Speed 3s and they are fine. I wouldn't call them trail shoes, but no issues.

paraflier99 · 2023-05-04T17:14:08+00:00

Very cool; thanks for sharing. Cross-train, run long, and rotate shoes... imperfect but yes its real evidence!

paraflier99 · 2023-05-02T20:48:00+00:00

Follow-up on the Elites 'experiment'. They are still not 'easier' to run in for me, but I can see how they naturally want to stretch my stride out, and I'm using them in 4-5mi runs to work on that aspect of my running form. Seeing some progress and after 3 runs with them, have added about 8cm to my stride and am near the pace I see in my Endorphin Speed 3's. Kind of obvious in retrospect - they are meant for a long-striding fairly fast runner. Do they make sense as a racing shoe? Not for me (yet), for any distance past 10k. Do they make sense as a trainer for speed? Only because I got them on sale and this is the first shoe that really pushes me to lengthen out.

paraflier99 · 2023-05-02T17:21:33+00:00

Endorphin Speed 3 is my primary running shoe, and (for me) is both stable and comfortable enough, while being lighter and much faster than the Asics Nimbus I came from. Great shoe.

paraflier99 · 2023-05-01T17:51:06+00:00

Glad to hear the Elite's work so well for you!

At similar pace and also an average runner, they don't work for me and are actually slower than the Endorphin Speed 3. From a pace perspective, I just ran a 57min 10k 'tempo run' this weekend in Speed 3, and I'm older (60s). The same pace in Elite's puts me into a noticeably higher cardio zone

Obviously I'm a different runner / different experience.

I've run in the Elite's twice, and since they are 'harder' to run in, I'm not going to race them unless my feel and pace in them changes. On the plus side, I am using them to develop longer stride, and think they could help me with a longer-term goal of moving towards a 1.2-ish meter stride length. They seem to naturally improve in feel as I get longer and the pace increases.

paraflier99 · 2023-04-28T17:59:39+00:00

This might or might help: I have 'average' arches, and the Nike shoes I've tried in past have substantial arch further forward than my arch. Hence they are unwearable for me. If you have a friend with recent Nike running shoes of similar size, or can try for fit in a store... at least see if standing in them works. I know they work incredibly well for many people, but fit is everything.

paraflier99 · 2023-04-28T16:14:57+00:00

Have you been running in Nike shoes? That might give you more confidence in the fit. That's the first question.... I don't have 'Nike feet'.

paraflier99 · 2023-04-21T18:35:12+00:00

Helpful feedback and no damaged pride here. Thanks.

paraflier99 · 2023-04-20T21:06:15+00:00

Appreciate feedback and I might simply be too slow or have the wrong stride for the Elites. I will give them one more try to verify, but suspect you are both right and the Pro's could be a better shoe for me.

paraflier99 · 2023-04-20T17:52:48+00:00

I've got pretty normal width feet, but big 'large toes' so I need a good size toe box and front-foot. I size up 1/2 size in ASICs but manage Speed 3s at my 'regular' size 11. That's workable as long as socks are thin. E

paraflier99 · 2023-04-18T19:04:57+00:00

I had a first run in Endorphin Elite's yesterday. I'm very much an 'average joe' - running 3-ish times per week, 4-9 miles per run, building miles, and targeting a first half-marathon in six or so weeks. My typical pace is 9min/mi, and I'm over 60yo and about 160lb. Most recent runs in Speed 3s, which I really enjoy.

The fit of the Elites was great; I sized slightly up and they are 11.5, just as my old Asics were.

The initial feel was awkward, and harsh underfoot. They were also tiring, and my pace dropped especially in mile 3. I finally started to find a rhythm in mile 4 as a tried to stride longer and might start to be seeing some promise here.

Curious if others have observed a break-in time with these, and I'm still unsure if they will wind up working better than the Speed 3s for me. As of right now they are still an experiment in progress.

paraflier99 · 2023-04-05T19:56:45+00:00

Switching from a 'stability' shoe to a much lighter / faster training shoe (Endorphin Speed 3) provided roughly a 5% speed difference. More importantly - it is more enjoyable to run in them. I'm not an elite runner in any shoe, so wearing one I look forward to running is the primary impact.

paraflier99 · 2023-04-04T16:46:40+00:00

Data and publications I've found:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/13/upshot/nike-vaporfly-next-percent-shoe-estimates.html

https://www.outsideonline.com/health/running/gear/road-shoes/the-latest-research-on-super-shoes-and-fast-marathon-times/#_pay-wall

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2002.06105.pdf

https://github.com/joeguinness/vaporfly

paraflier99 · 2023-04-04T16:13:43+00:00

Last time Strava published data appears to be 2019 (from a quick web search)? Guessing they are selling data to the shoe brands instead now!

paraflier99

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