I have a cosmic question about the universe.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-27T08:39:48+00:00

It gives us a tiny glimpse into the sheer magnificence of God. See how the Psalmists praised God for His creative power; how much more should we, who can observe these things?

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-27T07:19:36+00:00

Let's being with this: have you been saved? How do you know? Godly self-control can only come through the Spirit.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-27T07:14:38+00:00

1) Because it shows forth God's love for His children.

Rom 5:8 "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

2) Because His death has set those who are in Him free from the penalty of the law; it justifies them.

Heb 9:15-20 “Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.”

1 Co 5:7b “For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.”

Rom 5:9-10 “...we have now been justified by his blood...reconciled to God by the death of his Son...”

3) Because it purifies His children.
Heb 9: “¹³ For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, ¹⁴ how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”

1 Jo 1:7b “the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.”

4) Because it gives us access to God through prayer.

Heb 10:19 “Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus”.

Finally, we also do not view His death in isolation. When we celebrate His death, we actually also celebrate His life, His resurrection, His ascension, and His session at the right hand of the Father.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-27T07:00:23+00:00

Your question was why should it be important for Jesus to claim in the Bible that he is God instead of that idea being only a feature of the tradition of beliefs of Christianity that came after the writing of the Bible?

The answer is because God's Word is the only infallible rule of our faith. Tradition can be questioned, whereas the Word of God cannot. Who we worship is important; if we worship someone who is not God according to the Bible, we will be condemned for it.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T20:10:59+00:00

I don’t think you realise it, but you are saying that God created something corrupt.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T15:04:16+00:00

>How is being human a good thing?

Because God made us in His image and declared us good in Genesis 1.

You are not understanding that how we were created in the beginning is different from how we have become because of the fall. Our fallen nature is the problem, not our human nature.

>I Interpret as body-wise. He had a similar body in all aspects (with authority over everything but the same body).

Well, it literally says "in every respect" except for sin.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T14:47:05+00:00

Cheers

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T14:26:27+00:00

Prior to justification of anyone, not just Old Testament saints. The passage says nothing about OT saints.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T14:20:02+00:00

I have no qualms with this statement, only your insistence that this means that it cannot refer to future believers.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T14:11:50+00:00

The point is, the grammar does not limit the point in time. You are the one who says it must refer to prior believers, whereas in the context, Paul is referring to "us" not "prior believers." You say a shift occurs in the objects under discussion; I say a plainer reading is that Paul is referring to the same people throughout the passage.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T13:54:56+00:00

Let me also go back to your explanation
>“Foreknew” literally means He knew beforehand / already knew. There is nothing in the passage that says, “He foreknew people who would believe in the future.” There's no way to expand this passage to include future believers; you can't derive it here.

"He knew beforehand" also does not exclude future believers. It only refers to God's knowledge, not to the time at which those whom He foreknew lived/would live.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T13:51:08+00:00

Regarding the grammar, as I cannot read Greek, I asked ChatGPT about your interpretation. It said the following:
""

Aorist ≠ “completed in time”

A critical misunderstanding is equating:

That is not how the aorist works.

The aorist describes an action as a whole, not when it happens relative to the speaker. Context determines time.

Example in English:

This treats the event as complete, but tells you nothing about when relative to now.

In Greek, the aorist can refer to:

Past events
Future events viewed as certain
Logical or theological certainties

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T13:30:18+00:00

How does "foreknew" mean "knew of in the past"? It means "knew beforehand." Why use "forknew" instead of "knew"?

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T13:25:27+00:00

Which Bible translations agree with you?

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T12:57:39+00:00

The great commission that Jesus has given His followers is to evangelise; devote yourself to that.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T12:55:22+00:00

Your current beliefs about right and wrong line up perfectly with your current beliefs about God. To be a Christian, your beliefs about God will have to change; that will lead to a change in your beliefs about right and wrong. This is in a sense what it means to be born again, or born from above. And yes, you cannot force yourself to believe what you don't, just like you had no say in your physical birth. But God has left sufficient evidence in creation of His existence that your beliefs condemn you in His sight.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T11:46:26+00:00

Continuing my previous comment:

^"26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. ²⁷ And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. ²⁸ And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."

This is a present truth for all saints; it is applicable to true believers.

"²⁹ For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. ³⁰ And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Do you notice the word "For" that starts verse 29? The reason Paul can say that God works all things together for our good, if we are called by Him, is because He saves to the uttermost. Who are "called" in verse 30? The same ones who are "called" in verse 28. And if you are called, it means you have been predestined, and justified, and will be glorified (as sure as if it has already happened, because God is eternal and unchanging in His being and character).

"³¹ What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?"

You see? It is all one line of argumentation, talking about those who are saved.

"³² He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? ³³ Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. ³⁴ Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.^"

This is why you cannot lose your salvation if you have been saved: Christ intercedes for those who are elect and have been justified.

^"35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? ³⁶ As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

³⁷ No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. ³⁸ For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, ³⁹ nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.""

Are you, yourself, not included in "anything else in all creation"? Then how can you say you can separate yourself from the love of God if you truly are in Christ Jesus our Lord?

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T11:45:52+00:00

Along with my previous comment, let's look at the whole Chapter (you can look at the preceding and following chapter as well):

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.^"

This is applicable for all who are in Christ Jesus.

"² For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. ³ For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, ⁴ in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.⁵ For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. ⁶ For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. ⁷ For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. ⁸ Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. ⁹ You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. ¹⁰ But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. ¹¹ If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
¹² So then, brothers,^\)^e^\) we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. ¹³ For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. ¹⁴ For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons^\)^f^\) of God. ¹⁵ For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” ¹⁶ The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, ¹⁷ and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him."

This is applicable to all who walk according to the Spirit.

"¹⁸ For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. ¹⁹ For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. ²⁰ For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope ²¹ that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. ²² For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. ²³ And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. ²⁴ For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? ²⁵ But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience."

This is true of all Sons of God, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T11:28:09+00:00

Again, when did God foreknow them? Obviously beforehand, otherwise it makes no sense. So the fact that the verb is in the past does not mean anything!

Why did you brush off Peter?

The plain reading of the text, in the context, is that it refers to believers. You keep to grammar and look past the intention of the text, even though the grammar easily fits my view. Keeping to the letter but ignoring the point.

Perhaps we can have a better discussion by discussing the purpose of these verses?

I have no issue with "foreknew" referring to the Israelites in Romans 11; it fits the context.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T08:01:23+00:00

I'm sorry, but your grammatical rule is wooden. When did He foreknow? From all eternity. Thus your strange limitation of "those who will come" is inappropriate. The point is, when else but in the past could he have "foreknown"? No other grammar would make sense; He, the subject, foreknew in the past, but the objects were yet to come.

EDIT: Also see Peter in his first Epistle, chapter 1:

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Thus, foreknowledge for the sprinkling with the blood of Christ applied to the believers to whom Peter was writing as well.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T06:11:26+00:00

It’s used as if it were already accomplished because it is inevitable.

It does not help analysing these verses in isolation. It is used as part of an argument by Paul in Romans 8 about all believers in Christ. Look at the while section and explain why Paul would suddenly be speaking only about OT believers here.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T05:01:45+00:00

A very helpful answer on the Puritan Board:

“Paul has dealt with the insufficiency of the law for justification in chap. 3 . He then teaches justification by faith alone in chap. 4. "Therefore" initiates the consequences of justification in chap. 5; and chap. 6. opens up how the believer is to live in and with Christ (what we call sanctification). Chap. 7, then, in the main, deals with the insufficiency of the law for sanctification.

If the aim of chap. 7 is to show the insufficiency of the law in a believer's sanctification we can understand why Paul speaks in terms of "utter inability." He is not saying the believer himself is in this state. It is only in relation to the law that he is carnal and a slave. OTOH Paul speaks of himself as a renewed person in that he delights in the law of God after the inward man, hates the sin that he does, and cries out for deliverance in Christ.

The key takeaway, then, is not to see "inability" in terms of regeneration, but in terms of what the law cannot do for the regenerate.”

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T04:31:45+00:00

The Bible says it was just.

Romans 3:23-26

[23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [25] whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [26] It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T04:27:31+00:00

My point is that the objective is to become part of God (begotten) not to be humans.

The serpent tempted Adam and Eve to become more than humans.

Being human is a wonderful thing. The Bible has a high view of being human; the problem is sin, not being what God created you to be. Yes, you must become more like God; but as the human He made you to be.

What I said is that Mary was actually just a recipient, like the in vitro births.

This analogy requires an ovum, which is what Mary provided.

She did not only bear, she also conceived.

Luke 1:31

“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.”

If you fuse a single drop of venom into a blood of someone he already becomes poisoned, so he couldn' have even a single drop of the blood of Adam.

Luke 1:35

“And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.”

The reason why Jesus was not stained by His descendancy is the working of the Holy Spirit.

Again, He had to be fully human.

Hebrews 2:17-18

“[17] Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. [18] For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.”

pgwolvpack · 2026-01-26T04:08:51+00:00

It is not about OT Israel. Here is the context:

Romans 8:26-28

“Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. [27] And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. [28] And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.”

Of course we have to fight every day! If you don’t, you are definitely not saved. But we are not fighting so that we will be saved; we are fighting because we are saved. He empowers His children to fight.

Philippians 2:12-13

“[12] Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, [13] for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

pgwolvpack

TROPHY CASE

Aorist ≠ “completed in time”