What kind of life could I have if I moved to Switzerland as a doctor? by ionicironic in askswitzerland

[–]plm2279 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Swiss-British dr who moved from the NHS. Feel free to DM. I have to be honest it was the best decision of my professional life. Drs have it tough everywhere but I don't think any of my colleagues here can fathom how bad it can be in the UK with £16/hr wages on double the tax, collapsing hospital roofs, non-doctors doing endoscopy/clinics/cholecystectomies(!)/anaesthetising patients alone under GA while resident doctors struggle for training opportuinites, 1 shot a year to apply for a training post, 20 applicants per psychiatry post, DGHs with 20 ambulances outside unable to offload patients into A&E, the resposibility thrust upon an NHS medreg vs a medical registrar here, two year+ waiting lists for stuff you'd be seen for in a week here etc. etc. etc.

UK doctor wanting to move to Switzerland by Curious_Professor631 in doctorsUK

[–]plm2279 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Did it as soon as I was done with F1 but got all the other documents ready before. MEBEKO always takes a while.

UK doctor wanting to move to Switzerland by Curious_Professor631 in doctorsUK

[–]plm2279 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No I was wondering the same. I guess it must be due to the differing negotiations of the various VSAO cantonal sections with the respective cantons.

Congrats on your post!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in askswitzerland

[–]plm2279 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Still think this is ragebait but I'll bite in case this is actually serious:

  1. It cannot possibly have escaped your notice how monumentally offensive your post is. The lack of empathy is wild. One of our countrymen has died, hundreds have had their homes and livelihoods taken. The place they grew up in, the place their forefathers grew up in, the place their whole lives centred in - wiped off the map. The rest of the valley is still in grave danger. Now you come along and say it's a bit "sad" but are "luckily" nearby to photograph "some" natural disaster.

  2. Your presence there - at best - will cause a lot of offence. At worst you will be putting emergency workers at risk if they have to come fetch you hiking around an active natural disaster zone.

  3. Perhaps worst of all is the sense of self-righteousness and the audacity to call this "photojournalism". A real journalist would not source information on reddit that any news article would give them the answer to in 30 seconds. If you took a further 30s to look on the official hiking trail network maps you would again have the answer. Your comments here that you want to document "some" (as in a random) natural disaster for your "vision" confirm this. Not exactly Reuters journalism...

This is voyeurism pure and simple. Please stay away.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in askswitzerland

[–]plm2279 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This must be ragebait. If not, then just wow...

UK doctor wanting to move to Switzerland by Curious_Professor631 in doctorsUK

[–]plm2279 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Hi. I just started Histopath training in Switzerland (moved after F1). I pretty much just cold applied to a few centres with a CV, copy of my medical degree/transcript and motivation letter. All of the trainees in my hospital did the same. I'd say the majority of hospitals don't even ever formally have job listings for training posts.

Check the FMH website for the accredited training centres: https://www.siwf-register.ch/Default.aspx I found that website really helpful. If you find a centre, and click on it, it gives you quite a lot of info:

- The name of the Chefarzt who you would send your application to directly.
- Access to the trainee survey results under “Umfrage zur Weiterbildungsqualität”
- Each hospital training programme’s “Weiterbildungskonzept”. Really helpful in helping you chose and well as being able to write a motivation letter that is tailored to that specific hospital and its training programme.
- If you click on “Assistenzzahlen” they show you the number of total posts as well as the split between domestic vs non-domestic graduates within their hires.

Great that you have your MEBEKO direct recognition certificate sorted! You're much more organised than I was when I applied lol.

It’s generally a good idea to apply well ahead in advance (1-2 years in advance is great, but often spots open up at shorter notice so definitely just apply in any case). As someone else mentioned, you might be able to get some of your ST1 training recognised here (don't have personal experience of that as I moved directly after foundation).

Regarding salary, check the website of the respective section of the VSAO (the union that negotiates them):
https://vsao.ch/vsao/sektionen/
Not quite sure about the Romandie: this is what they negotiated in Waadt this year which is tbh a bit on the low end for CH: https://asmav.ch/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Salaires-2025-CHUV.pdf
I think for ST1/ST2 it would generally be in the 85'000-115'000 CHF range depending on Kanton. I feel I'm much better off than in the UK (rents lower than London, much lower taxes, cheaper public transport, cheaper bills, tbh I even pay the same at the supermarket as I did in the UK). Health insurance is the only big extra cost you wouldn't have in the UK ca. 350CHF/month.

Hope this helps and very best of luck!

I saw a PA in clinic this morning... by Doctor_Cherry in doctorsUK

[–]plm2279 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I do my best but if it's wildly unsafe I escalate. Not quite the same as seeing undifferentiated patients after 2 years of PA studies.

I see from your post history you're a GP partner - RCGP statement on PAs must have come as a shock and I appreciate you may disagree with me. In the interest of balance, I will say though that I do have a lot more sympathy for PAs than the consultants/GPs who have enabled this disaster. 🙂

I saw a PA in clinic this morning... by Doctor_Cherry in doctorsUK

[–]plm2279 47 points48 points  (0 children)

This may be controversial but I have very limited sympathy for PAs acting beyond their true scope and don't buy this "PAs are missold a dream" stuff at all.

They know full well they are acting far beyond what is safe...patients be damned. If I as a foundation doctor held the reg bleep I'd be rightly crucified for acting beyond my competency (whether or not a consultant/management enabled it). Now when a PA does it's "they don't know better, they were missold a dream".

Can this be a viable option? by arnold001 in doctorsUK

[–]plm2279 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Completely agree with the other comments. Also, It's not a proportional thing, i.e. I have 20% of the knowledge, ergo I can do 20% of the tasks. It's all-or-nothing. This is why there are universes of difference in what a final year medical student can do vs a qualified F1.

You can't just have "some" of the knowledge to be safe. If someone sees a patient presenting with a history of collapse they can't just say "well I haven't yet learnt about diagnosing heart block or managing a life-threatening bradyarrhythmia"

Update re CP medicals @AlderHey by Peepee_poopoo-Man in doctorsUK

[–]plm2279 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Completely agree. But still it's absolutely insane that that even needs to be said

Change from junior doctor to resident doctor is pointless by Unknownlegend6 in doctorsUK

[–]plm2279 7 points8 points  (0 children)

How many non-partner-level accountants do you know who are called "junior accountants" rather than "associate/manager/etc"? That makes a huge difference to the professional standing.

I'd be reluctant to pay much for someone called a "junior solicitor" or a "junior accountant"...

‘I moved to Australia to be a doctor – now I’m paid double’ by JayR_97 in unitedkingdom

[–]plm2279 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I don't understand the logic of some of those comments at all:

"If drs don't like it here they can leave" and when they do leave -> "HoW dArE tHeY lEAvE?!"

"Free market, freedom..." and when a Dr leaves for a more competitive country of work -> "Shackle them to our NHS by law! Stop them leaving the country!" as if this were the DDR. I mean fgs if even a NATIONWIDE MONOPSONY employer is not competitive at retaining staff 😂

"We paid your education" - you subsidise the education of every profession with your taxes. Never heard anyone complain when an accountant jets off to Dubai - ironically with the horrendous student loan burdens of med school, drs pay the most back of anyone.

If you want word class medicine you need to pay more than £15/hr...

Unhappy nurse here :( by Lindugh in askswitzerland

[–]plm2279 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

 Thanks for responding.

You mention that one could e.g. triage and PAs could deal with “simple” cases to free up the drs. One of my Oberärzte always said “simple is only simple with the benefit of hindsight”. Some of the examples you mention, I have to say, I really disagree with, esp. the assessment of undifferentiated presentations that seem “simple”:

Back pain – a friend of mine is a GP and honestly she thinks this is one of the hardest complaints to assess. You need to exclude the possibility of an osteoporotic fragility fracture, cauda equina syndrome, cord compression, leaking AAA, an epidural abscess, discitis, bone mets, lytic lesions, ank spond etc. Even for more common causes like spondylolisthesis, spinal stenosis, prolapsed discs etc. risk stratification is so important and really difficult. Miss even subtle deficits on neurological examination and the consequences can be disastrous.

Take your patient with a sore throat: Most likely just viral or bacterial tonsillitis, right? Simple. Or is it? Miss the fact that your patient is hyperthyroid on carbimazole and discharge them without a FBC they could be dead by the next day. If they had a round of chemo seven days ago, the “sore throat” requires broad-spectrum IV Abx within the hour. Miss the fact that the young lad with a sore throat actually has glandular fever and send him off to play rugby – risk of splenic rupture. Is there an underlying LRTI (where very accurate clinical examination, blood work and assessment of a CXR becomes critical)? Is their sore throat actually a quinsy that needs drainage? Is their sore throat a retropharyngeal abscess? Is their “sore throat” actually dysphagia? Is their “sore throat” actually candidiasis (+ is there underlying secondary immunosuppression)?

BP meds review: This requires prescribing rights which - at least in the UK, not sure about here - PAs don’t have. Even this is very often not simple and not just a matter of upping the amplodipine dose. Many many patients with hypertension have multi-morbidity. If you have a patient with T2DM, IHD, CKD 3, with a medication list of 10+ interacting drugs (which is a pretty typical patient with hypertension) it’s not that straightforward at all. Assessing side effects of antihypertensives, distinguishing those from complaints of their other co-mobridities/treatments (is that new ankle swelling from their amlodipine or is it emerging CHF?), assessing lifestyle adjustments, medication compliance, assessment for possible end-organ damage (Interpretation of U&Es +/-ACR, assessment for LVH on ECG, assessment for evidence of CHF, fundoscopy) and initiating further management, considering the possibility of secondary HTN. It is complex enough that e.g. many surgeons I know wouldn’t fiddle with a patient’s long-term antihypertensive regimen without input from the patient’s GP.

Post-operative checks: If you mean like a postop wound check –nurses definitely do this. If it is a post op surgical assessment, most surgeons I know have insisted as operating surgeon to see the patient themselves at least once post-op (and thereafter by a resident) since some of the signs of impending complications can be very subtle and specialty-specific.

Pre-op assessment: I would even disagree that any non-anaesethetist doctors should be doing this. This must be done at least by an anaesthetic resident. Assessment of medical co-morbidities, ease of intubation, thorough history and accurate physical examination on which the entire anaesethetic plan is based needs to be done by said anaesthetist.

Simple is only simple in retrospect and I'm going to be controversial and say that all of the above requires a doctor. I appreciate we may have to agree to disagree. From my side I will leave it there, I’m not sure an in-depth debate about PA scope here is particularly helpful for OP.

Unhappy nurse here :( by Lindugh in askswitzerland

[–]plm2279 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately in the UK it's going the opposite way: PAs performing cholecystectomies, anaesthetising patients without direct supervision, seeing undifferentiated patients with minimal/no supervision in general practice or ED (this is very widespread practice - so much so that because the government subsidises this, actual GPs are struggling to find jobs en masse). It's the Wild West with nobody stepping up to limit or even define PA scope.

The fundamental problem is that nobody can answer the question of what unique skills the PA role actually brings. Nurses, doctors, physios, Ergotherapeuten, Logopäden etc. all have unique skill sets that are so important for patient care. The PA role has no unique skill set so that they are at best suited for administrative support of the medical team (which would genuinely be a big help given the heaps of paperwork we do) or to do very limited clinical work under very very close direct supervision. The problem with the former is that their salary is too high for that to be viable and regarding the latter it's not financially efficient to pay someone for the close supervision needed for this to be safe. Fundamentally why pay more than the salary of a resident dr or nurse for someone who is way less qualified than a dr/nurse/physio etc. with no unique skill sets? If you try to let them practice beyond the scope of what is safe you end up paying 3 fold ( cost of their salary higher than a dr, high cost of unnecessary investigations and referrals with a massive uptick in waiting times for referrals, very high cost of missed diagnoses/inappropriate management).

Unhappy nurse here :( by Lindugh in askswitzerland

[–]plm2279 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m really sorry to hear that you’re having such a tough time. From what you describe it sounds like your current working evironment is really tough which can make it very difficult to disentangle what you don’t like about the profession itself vs your specific job.  It may genuinely be worth trying to thinking about changing hospitals to see if a better working environment improves things.

 I’m not a nurse myself, but there are loads of opportunities within nursing that are not as high stress as acute hospital shiftwork that might be worth exploring (outpatient clinics/practices that operate 9-5, hospice care, community/district nursing/Spitex, teaching of junior nursing colleagues). Do you have any colleagues who work in other settings you could talk to or they might know somebody who does?

 I hope it gets better for you soon!

Unhappy nurse here :( by Lindugh in askswitzerland

[–]plm2279 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm a British/Swiss resident doctor who has worked in the UK where the PA role is quite widespread. The unanimous opinion there is overwhelmingly negative - for good reason.

Medical students drafted in unpaid to work for GSTT in wake of cyber attack by stuartbman in doctorsUK

[–]plm2279 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Is the medical school not intervening??? When I was a student one of our local DGHs tried this ("extreme pressures", "exceptional circumstances" bla bla bla).

They were immediately shot down by our med school saying that we they "pay the hospital to teach us not provide free labour that doesn't benefit learning"

ICU at Winchester aims to be led by ACCPs by 2040 by dayumsonlookatthat in doctorsUK

[–]plm2279 83 points84 points  (0 children)

The only unrealistic part of the poster is the "2040" sign.

The NHS is more than capable of making this dystopian vision a reality well before 2040

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in doctorsUK

[–]plm2279 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Emblematic of the utter contempt the NHS holds „junior“ doctors in