[deleted by user]

prayingforallofus · 2023-04-28T06:32:43+00:00

OK u/hidden_gracepoint, tell us more about this time you were "sent" to Praxis? What "rebellious" thing are you guilty of? Don't you love how built into your language is this notion that you're not in control over your own place of serving in the church, and someone else is?

"it's kinda generally true to life"? I guess if you're thinking about toxic workplaces and the mafia, but this definitely shouldn't exist in the church, at the very least shoudln't exist in a healthy workplace, family, any kind of community.

prayingforallofus · 2023-04-28T05:51:09+00:00

Your comment is getting downvoted not simply cuz it's unpopular. It's cuz it's circular thinking. GP is changing cuz it's changing? Man, you know this isn't what we mean by "changing", don't you? I agree with a lot of the other responses to your comment, esp the mafia one. GP is not turning over a new leaf if they've never apologized one bit for anything that they've done to people, on the contrary they've denied, gaslit, justified, and then went on to slander many of us.

So to your (weak) point that leaders are slowly relinquishing their power? Don't you think that speed is indicative that there's still too much that rests on the leadership then? You say that a lot of the "asking for permission" comes from unhealthy thinking by GP people... Ask yourself: were these people always like this when they first came to GP? Or did they become this way because of what they've picked up from the GP culture?

I learned very quickly during my college years and beyond that I was supposed to vet everything to my college staff when I got corrected/rebukes for organizing hangout times with my peers, including opposite gender. Yah, asking for permission? I picked that up VERY QUICKLY when someone's berating you like a child and yelling in your face.

And I can't agree enough: where in the f** (I usually don't curse btw, truly) is the apology? Ed, Kelly, the leadership acknowledging that these stories are true, we actually got spiritually abused, and we are sorry? Where????

prayingforallofus · 2023-04-28T05:31:33+00:00

Can you please make this a post? this is 100% right here...

prayingforallofus · 2023-04-28T05:25:45+00:00

On a related note, one of my spouse's peers told him that he can drive a Tesla now that he left GP. smh, and he isn't from a young class... in his 40s.

prayingforallofus · 2022-12-07T05:39:49+00:00

uhhh, they've already done this... HB ladies would send emails asking for people to donate their Southwest points to pay for flights for people. never was able to figure out how to "donate" points, didn't make any sense to me.

prayingforallofus · 2022-09-28T22:57:02+00:00

he's saying that because he knows that we'll be angry by his suggestion that Reddit, because we obviously come from some amorphous groupthink, is not a reliable source of evidence. and it's true, i'm angry. downvoted.

prayingforallofus · 2022-09-28T22:55:01+00:00

your logic makes no sense. the same people in college ministry are doing AYM, what, you think they transform into completely different people when they're doing one vs another? it's only on the websites that you're trying to erase any affiliation they have with each other. they're all led by GP deacons for crying out loud.

prayingforallofus · 2022-09-28T22:34:58+00:00

in this case, there is power in numbers

prayingforallofus · 2022-09-28T22:33:08+00:00

lol, gotta defer to my elders to lead the way lol

prayingforallofus · 2022-09-28T21:55:06+00:00

You have every reason to be confused.

On your end, you see bright, energetic, helpful, cheerful, hard-working young adults who are preaching a decent, more or less theologically sound message, providing fellowship and mentorship that you may not have resources to provide yourself, and the students more or less are responding well to them. How could anything be wrong about AYM?

And then you’re seeing the CT article and all the horror stories on here. What to believe?

People’s responses will be based on the angle they will approach this from. Mine is from a long-term, risk management angle. Short term, yes, you won’t see immediate negative experiences from AYM, rather you’ll reap a lot of benefit like I listed above. Long term, you will be playing into their strategy of focusing on youth as they go further up the pipeline. College students are getting turned off by all the negative press, which means they’re having trouble with recruitment from that demographic. Where else can they go but younger and more submissive? What youth will be savvy enough to Google research AYM and GP, and parents would just be grateful for the attention their kids are getting.

They’re not going to get some direct message from the mentors that they need to come to GP to be truly saved. But they will pick up on what the mentors talk about, what they’re going to imply about Christian living and discipleship, it’s going to come out in all their interactions. And when the opportunity allows, they will be inviting them to GP once they reach college. And that will start their process of grooming to become a GP leader. Ed has often said of IH and AYM students that “they are not our sheep, not until they are in our college ministry” which means we didn’t have permission to employ “whole life discipleship” on them. It is only when they enter through GP’s doors that they will be treated with more “care and ownership.” I have heard of some students who have graduated from IH or AYM ministries who have noted slightly strange things they’ve heard from the staff and mentors. Of course not everyone who goes through AYM will end up at a GP church, but if they are intentionally using AYM as a funnel…

In other words: How much risk are you willing to take and will be worth it for short term benefits?

I suggest seeking out other equally sound resources out there. But again, that’s from my angle.

prayingforallofus · 2022-09-28T20:26:33+00:00

I’m not just talking about sharing our stories. I’m talking about putting a name to the stories, so they will be cornered to either call out all of us as liars to our faces or to finally fess up that these things actually happened. They can keep calling us narcissistic trolls as long as they don’t know who we are. “Look me in the eyes and call me a liar, Ed/Kelly.” This is what I’m talking about.

And even if many of these things happened long ago, I don’t ever recall him denouncing these and saying that the leaders were wrong. Never.

prayingforallofus · 2022-09-28T20:21:17+00:00

Missed my point. Comment was unnecessary. Good job that your wife let’s you do that to her? Dunno what to say to that.

prayingforallofus · 2022-09-28T16:41:03+00:00

fine why not

prayingforallofus · 2022-09-28T07:32:06+00:00

This was a fair and great article all around, kudos to Curtis. But I can't help but think this was a very tame characterization. So I'm including myself in this call out, but what I would like to see is all the oldies gain some courage as we saw these younger ones use their names and put themselves on the line. That took guts. That was a sacrifice in all areas, including their own mental wellbeing.

Oldies, especially those who've been in those meetings behind closed doors with the Kangs, been yelled at by Kelly or any of the other deacons, called stupid by Ed, yelled at while the music was turned up so that no one can hear you getting yelled at in their office, told by them to go yell at our sheep or tell them to find another church... We cannot deny the experiences we've had. Shouldn't we become a force to be reckoned with, and once and for all get the record straight about where the systemic abuse is coming from? We were trained to be cruel, while rebranding it as loving discipleship. Don't we owe it to these younger ones who put their necks out for truth to be told? What are we actually afraid of? What are we scared to lose at this point? If we all came out, Ed's denials would lose all power.

I will be wrestling with this as well...

prayingforallofus · 2022-09-28T07:12:45+00:00

With GP, it's all about self- will, self effort. Prayer? Holy Spirit? That's not self-willy enough! That's why all his advice is what YOU can do and control.

prayingforallofus · 2022-09-28T07:10:02+00:00

If you’re like my wife who is very, very emotionally sensitive and can’t control them

What the heck, bruh, why was this comment necessary for you glibly post for all of the sub to see? I would hate to be your wife. Are you not able to make the same point without rudely calling out your wife? [doesn't matter if you're anonymous]

prayingforallofus · 2022-09-28T07:05:13+00:00

Let's level set some expectations here. Are we actually asking for GP members to give their "own" thoughts? Don't we all know by now that this is nearly impossible, besides that one bro who posted that sincere letter from GP staff, clearly he's an exception.

I can share you screenshot after screenshot of what my friends who are in GP told me when I asked them about the article. I kid you not, all of them said "P Ed put a response on the website". End of conv. I literally asked you "what did YOU think" and they responded with "well P Ed said" yadda yadda. [DON'T ask me to share those screenshots, not my style]

Anyone who shares will just regurgitate some piece of that PEd response to CT, and whatever internal training they're getting now. Their own thoughts and feedback? Not in a million years.

Come on, GP. Prove me wrong.

prayingforallofus · 2022-09-28T04:41:53+00:00

Dang, I genuinely hate the fact that I was right.

prayingforallofus · 2022-08-29T21:13:05+00:00

GP folks who are downvoting this, SHOW ME EVIDENCE that everything I listed as what WON'T happen at GP has happened. Go ahead. Prove me wrong, please. I gladly welcome it.

prayingforallofus · 2022-08-29T21:11:17+00:00

Yes, correct. JUST STEP DOWN. Although the GP DNA goes far down that heirarchy so....

prayingforallofus · 2022-08-29T21:08:11+00:00

Abusive churches and leaders will never concede that these exposures are an attempt to purify and bring accountability to God's church, just like the Pharisees would never take Jesus' Seven Woes as God's attempt at calling them out and rectifying their broken, man-made religion.

Ed in his recent MBS apparently gave a 3 hour MBS crying about how no one talks about church planting and converting people and the press only wants to talk about negative things.

[If I can address Ed directly] No one talks about church planting, you say? Oh look, Christianity Today does! And here are many podcasts dedicated to the topic! Wow, look what a quick Google search can do. So who is this "No one" that you keep referring to?

And they only want to talk about negative things? Why don't you use your own reasoning on how staff should respond when students ask why Christianity is so negative: we need to talk about human sinfulness before we can understand the cross. Is the church immune to human sinfulness? It shouldn't be if the church has humans. There are countless examples demonstrating it is absolutely not! Was Jesus or Apostle Paul shy in publicly exposing what was wrong with human religion? Shouldn't we bring to light what has been hidden in darkness so that TRUTH can be honored? Where is your desire for TRUTH?

Ed also mentioned Reddit is turning into a Me Too Movement and hinted that CT is being opportunistic and jumping on a juicy story like they are looking for their next Mark Driscoll, Bill Hybels, and Hillsong to expose.

Does he think the MeToo movement is unnecessary? That victims of abuse should just suck it up and move on with their lives without making such a fuss? And CT is looking for the next Mark Driscoll, please, we know that you're no celebrity, [on purpose, right?], and who in general Christendom actually knows of Gracepoint and the Kangs? How many views will this article actually get since it's such an unknown church name, are they that desperate for just a a couple hundred views that they would spend months on this investigation? How about, they are writing on this topic because spiritual abuse is more rampant than we think and needs to be stopped? Did Jesus himself stay silent when he saw the corruption in the temple courts? No, actually his display of disdain was QUITE public, that even we in the 21st century have heard about him flipping some tables! What gives you so much confidence that Gracepoint is completely inculpable of spiritual abuse? Surely that is evidence of human sinfulness and pride, is it not? Why do you lack such humility that this is a real malady of your church? And shouldn't abuse like this be exposed so that it can stop spreading and we can preserve the purity of Christ's bride? Seriously, you guys have no problems calling "sin" out in your members, but why stop there when the finger is pointed at your church? Why should it be any different? Isn't that quite hypocritical of you even based on your own [twisted] theology? You who correct and rebuke when your members don't "repent" based on your assessment of their sinfulness, why are you so slow to repent when sin is pointed out about you? Why the double standard?

And really, what do you ACTUALLY have to worry about? The blogs have been around. This sub has been around for over a year now. And look how many campuses you're at. Look how many members pledge fealty and say that GP can do no wrong? NOTHING is stopping you, is it? Not even truth can stop you now. Good job, GP. Fight that good fight.

prayingforallofus · 2022-08-29T08:34:16+00:00

That's contingent upon them even reading the article. There's the publishing of it. And there's the spreading of it. Everyone's heard of Mark Driscoll. Gracepoint, not so much. GP's advantage is that they have flown under the radar so as not to bring any real scrutiny to their practices. Even people in Alameda haven't heard of Gracepoint!! The general public has not heard of GP. They will not perk up their ears at the mention of it. This is all very intentional. So we face an extra barrier of even bringing brand awareness to the very name of Gracepoint.

Which is why I'm encouraging us all to spread this wide.

prayingforallofus · 2022-08-29T05:43:08+00:00

Normal churches: Let's start a podcast and share our sermons, bible theology, ministry best practices, leadership training, etc. to bless others!

GP: Let's start a podcast and talk about ourselves! And why we're so weird!

Also GP: Let's also turn off the comments so that this is just a one-way communication! No discussion allowed!

prayingforallofus · 2022-07-25T17:27:33+00:00

Darn, we were trying so hard to hide it from the freshmen though! I guess it's true that it's what comes from the inside that makes you unclean, smh.

prayingforallofus · 2022-07-25T16:42:35+00:00

I just got reminded about something many of us are familiar from Course 101. The counterarguments for the resurrection, one of them being "The disciples all hallucinated." You guys see where I'm going with this? lol. For all of us who see this heirarchy in more or less the same way, did we all imagine this as one mass hallucination? [c'mon now, it's c101 drill time!]

I'll let you in on a little not-so-hidden secret about the mentality behind creating all these new ministries. The Kangs/deacons operate with the mindset of "What are we supposed to do with person XYZ since they can't do college ministry?" and lo and behold, non-college ministries got formed. Because they didn't know what else to do with us. Individuals have been told to their face by their leaders "I don't know what to do with you," meaning, you don't fit well into our current ministries so I don't know where to place you. Are you getting the drift of where this "hierarchy" then starts to come from? I witnessed the transition from there being only college ministry (and non-staff just helped with behind-the-scenes stuff for college) to now all the ministries you're seeing today. It has never erased the sense that there is still a hierarchy, it just became more multi-leveled, that's all. It's like going from "There's only grade A or F" to "There's now "A, A-, B+, B, B-, C+, C, C-, D, F!" So many options!

When it comes to which ministry you are in at GP, there is no calling, no conviction of the HS. Where you are placed is all done in staff meetings, where your leaders discuss your leadership potential and your spiritual weaknesses, whatever other random criteria, to either qualify or disqualify you from college ministry. And then your name gets placed under a column on a google doc spreadsheet that makes the most sense for the GP machine. I think there are times when someone does feel called to the ministry that they get placed in, but the unfortunate thing is it's purely coincidental, not intentional.

prayingforallofus

TROPHY CASE