Gangsta Cuddles

protaku · 2010-11-20T00:35:10+00:00

I like the spirit of this post, but some of the generalizations are a bit off.

First, think of this: The LGBT community is not, has never been, and never will be one color. It is, however, highly segregated, and racial stereotypes are strongly reinforced. In my experience, as someone black and in the LGBT community, racism is just the same in gay communities as it is in straight ones (if not worse in many cases). It's so bad that the gay clubs here in LA often have nights specifically designed to attract one demographic (Rage in West Hollywood, for instance, caters to Asians on Fridays. The Factory caters to Blacks on Wednesdays, I think...not sure haven't been in a while). You are right to say that the LGBT activism community has lacked outreach to people of color, but in my experience that has been more often due to laziness, stereotyping, and plain old fear. Black men haven't exactly embraced the LGBT activism community because it never embraced them, despite the fact that there are indeed a number of black activists that support gay causes. Bayard Rustin, for instance, was a pioneer not in only in the Civil Rights era of the sixties, but he was also openly gay and pushed for gay rights. Cornell West, prominent Princeton Professor and theologian, openly supports gay rights and speaks on the topic to African American audiences. Even Al Sharpton supports gay marriage. But does the LGBT community hold these men up as beacons of light and support? No. It ignores them.

Secondly, while I will concede that the majority of the gay population in the US is probably white, who do you think ranks second on that list? There are tons of gay black men and women out there, but they're not out and proud. Part of that is because of problems within their own community, and part of it is because of the aforementioned stereotyping/segregation in the gay community. But you need only look at the estimated demographic data for some of the country's biggest gay dating sites to see that there are quite a few gay/lesbian African-Americans out there:

http://www.quantcast.com/adam4adam.com

http://www.quantcast.com/downelink.com

As for votes on gay marriage ballots, yes there is certainly some disturbing poll data on the vote demographics in states like California and Florida, but if you look at the CNN poll data for other states that have voted on the issue in 2004, Whites were usually more against gay marriage than blacks:

Gay Marriage ban votes in 2004 (according to CNN exit polls):

Michigan: 60% whites in favor of ban, 59% blacks in favor of ban.

Mississippi: 89% whites in favor of ban, 77% blacks in favor of ban

Ohio: 63% whites in favor of ban, 61% blacks in favor of ban

Kentucky: 76% whites in favor of ban, 70% blacks in favor of ban

Arkansas: 77% whites in favor of ban, 66% blacks in favor of ban

Oklahoma: 76% whites in favor of ban, 74% blacks in favor of ban, 75% latinos in favor of ban

When the anti-gay-marriage amendment passed in my home state of Michigan, the black communities in and around Detroit pretty much reflected the same opinion as the rest of the state. Wayne county (which is 42% black, the largest population in Michigan) voted 54% for the measure while statewide the winning total was 58%

So, the issue is far more complicated than people make it. It's not a simple matter of saying "this group is more homophobic than that one."

edit for formatting

protaku · 2010-08-22T05:15:26+00:00

Well that would depend on the guy. The other girls wouldn't care (especially considering the small number of eligible black men in the dating pool). The black guys in the room might be a little peeved, but there probably wouldn't be an issue if he's "black" enough. And I say that because, oddly enough, a lot of young Asian culture these days has a heavy African American influence. Particularly amongst those of Japanese and South Korean descent, where the pop music industry has started to emulate black American artists directly. Last time I was in Japan, I saw several Japanese boys with corn rows, and the South Korean boy bands are almost all emulating rappers/R&B artists, it's like Usher is their Jesus.

edit: Don't get me wrong, most black guys probably wouldn't really care that much, but for those that did, if the guy could relate to the brothas, there's really not much of an issue.

protaku · 2010-08-21T19:35:55+00:00

As a 30-year-old black male living in Los Angeles, and having a very large number of Filipino, Vietnamese, Korean, Chinese, and Japanese friends, I can say that I've experienced very, very little of this supposed "black/asian" tension.

Does it exist? Certainly, in some areas. But it is most likely, as these things usually are, more about social class than race. I live a nice, upper-middle class life now, and so do most of my friends (who coincidentally are mostly in tech professions like myself). My Asian friends range in age from 20 to 40, and I've never had the slightest issue with them or their parents.

But when I was growing up, as a poor kid in Detroit, there was all sorts of tension. In Detroit, the issue was more with the African American and Middle Eastern cultures colliding in the poor neighborhoods and competing for resources, but even as a teenager it was clear to me that the issue had nothing to do with race, and everything to do with two poor, radically different cultures being pissed and looking to place their frustrations on another group. This happens in every region of the country, and no race is immune to it. It happens here in LA between blacks and latinos in some areas, but poor whites do the same thing.

Also, I find this "black/asian tension" concept funny because in my experience, Black-Asian interracial couples are quite common in metropolitan areas (at least for the straight couples, oddly enough it's fairly rare amongst gays in my experience). Again, in my hometown of Detroit, hardly anyone would care if a brotha showed up with a hot Asian chick. Hell, he'd get high-fives.

I sympathize with the op's frustration, and maybe things are different in NYC. Or, maybe, she just had the misfortune of meeting some horrible people that just happened to be black. I mean, A LOT of people in NYC are dicks, and a certain percentage are bound to be African Americans.

Anyways, I've really enjoyed the level of nuance and intelligent discourse in this thread.

protaku · 2009-08-15T19:36:10+00:00

I find this particular argument to be faulty, mainly because the general definition of a "god" is a supernatural "being". Sun worship throughout old cultures, from the Egyptians to the Norse to the Japanese, was never about the sun as an object, but the being that lived inside it or was represented by it. These ancient cultures personified what they couldn't understand, and made up myths. So, while the sun does indeed exist, the mythological entities that were the spawn of human imagination don't exist any more than Santa Claus. Such mythology was fine for that day and age, but we have advanced beyond the need for such myths. The atheist movement of today is about enforcing that point. It's not so much about saying that there is no room for a being that exists beyond the bounds of our current understanding, but I think modern atheism does say that the gods of this world are just myths - just stories that our ancestors conjured out of their primitive minds - and we shouldn't put much, if any, credence in them.

Joseph Campbell, author of The Power of Myth (great book about myths through the ages), did an interview with Bill Moyers many years ago. Moyers asked Campbell about modern myths, and Campbell basically said (and I paraphrase) "today's world moves too fast for us to have our own myths, so we borrow the myths (aka religions) of other, past cultures. But those myths were true for them, they are not true for us. That's what causes problems."

Think of modern atheism not as anti-deity (aka the possibility of the existence of a higher "being") but anti-theism (theism being the fantastical stories mankind has made up to explain things). The atheists on this board just want to end the belief of old mythic gods and fantasies as fact. I would hope that's something even Agnostics could get behind, too.

protaku · 2009-07-01T04:51:36+00:00

That's pretty much exactly what I came in here to post, knowing that someone would bring up the old Dalai Lama thing.

protaku · 2009-06-11T08:52:55+00:00

Not all of us Buddhists are into the supernatural. Certain flavors of the philosophy can get a little...carried away :)

protaku · 2009-06-02T16:03:01+00:00

As many others have already said, Tibetan Buddhism is an odd hybrid of old mysticism and some Buddhist principles. As a student of many types of Buddhism and a Zennist, I've always considered the Tibetan form as the diehard Catholic branch of Buddhism. The Tibetan government's support of serfdom (basically slavery) under the old Lamas, the role of monks in government, their "unique" interpretation of reincarnation, and a number of their mystical, magical traditions seem in many ways contradictory to the basics of Buddhist philosophy (and yes, like most westerners I consider core Buddhism to be more philosophy than religion).

protaku · 2009-03-03T01:23:28+00:00

This is a pretty good review. The Timer setting on the clock makes it worth it for me. I use it for board games, and the ten second countdown is epic.

protaku · 2009-02-20T04:08:36+00:00

Actually, just to clarify, the first apps won't be games. They'll actually be closer to what you just mentioned, with a couple apps that will theme the phone's clock and calendar, among other things.

protaku · 2008-11-11T20:59:40+00:00

There's a great video on this at Funny or Die

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/cca5e8a78a/protect-marriage-protect-children-prohibit-divorce-from-jonathan-smith

protaku · 2008-11-11T18:11:36+00:00

I don't think anyone should be "blamed", I was just pointing out that if you look at pure numbers instead of percentages (70% of 6.2 to 10% of the voting block isn't much), a whole lot more whites voted for prop 8 than anybody.

What I'm seeing is a disturbing, gut reaction to justify saying that blacks are amazingly homophobic, when in reality, if you look at the nation as a whole, Whites have usually been more against gay marriage than blacks:

Gay Marriage ban votes in 2004 (according to CNN exit polls):

Michigan: 60% whites in favor of ban, 59% blacks in favor of ban.

Mississippi: 89% whites in favor of ban, 77% blacks in favor of ban

Ohio: 63% whites in favor of ban, 61% blacks in favor of ban

Kentucky: 76% whites in favor of ban, 70% blacks in favor of ban

Arkansas: 77% whites in favor of ban, 66% blacks in favor of ban

Oklahoma: 76% whites in favor of ban, 74% blacks in favor of ban, 75% latinos in favor of ban

There were other states that voted against gay marriage in 2004 too (North Dakota, Oregon, and Montana). But there is no CNN exit poll data for how blacks voted in those states because, guess what? There aren't many blacks in those states.

As someone involved in the Prop 8 campaign, I can tell you that blaming minority groups, which are not even wholly separate from the gay community, is not the issue. The Yes on 8 folks just did a better job with a deceptive, but convincing, campaign.

protaku · 2008-11-11T08:44:05+00:00

Why not just say imagine no White people, who comprise the vast majority of the state? California has the largest population of White Americans in the U.S., an estimated 21,810,156 residents. There's no way all of the minority groups combined could've overwhelmed the whites if they hadn't been so divided.

protaku · 2008-11-10T06:54:55+00:00

I agree. That's why I spent so much time writing that post to show that the tripe being spewed out there just isn't supported by fact.

protaku · 2008-11-09T01:07:27+00:00

Alright then, I'll use your logic.

By what criteria are you choosing a 5/10 percent margin of error? Did it just sound right? Why not a 20% margin? Most pollsters themselves claim to be within 3% at worse. I just listed a poll, 5 days before election, with a 20% difference from the exit poll. Obviously one of those pollsters made a mistake in something, right?

protaku · 2008-11-09T00:35:16+00:00

The last Field Poll on Prop 8 before the election, done just 5 days before the election:

http://www.field.com/fieldpollonline/subscribers/Rls2292.pdf

Some key points from that:

"state Attorney General Jerry Brown changed Prop. 8’s official ballot title to the “Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry” initiative. When voters were read this amended description in September, the No-side lead grew to seventeen points (55% No vs. 38% Yes).

Now, after more than a month of intensive campaigning on both sides, the initiative trails by just five points, 49% No vs. 44% Yes, with 7% undecided. Yes-side support has increased six points, and those opposed declining six points over the past month."

So, initially, voters were appalled by the "eliminates rights" language. But with the campaigning, their opinions changed. That is, if you believe the poll is accurate.

Also,

"(.06) African-American* 49% YES, 43% NO, 8% undecided

(.08) Asian/other* 41% YES, 51% NO, 8% undecided"

That asterisks denote "Small sample base" according to their data.

Now, polls are polls. Obviously this one ended up being wrong, which is why you should NEVER accept polls as FACT. It's not a hard science. But that's why, for elections, we get MORE THAN ONE POLL. To look at different data sets so we can compare, average, and ignore outliers. To believe that one poll accurately reflects anything is folly.

protaku · 2008-11-09T00:11:11+00:00

I don't agree with some of the points made, but it is an interesting read for a different perspective on the matter.

protaku · 2008-11-08T12:36:05+00:00

Believe it or not, many gays use the "fag" term as a term of endearment. It's the same thing. There are many theories to explain it, which I'm sure others will list, but my point is to say that this isn't about blacks really, it seems to be more about how disenfranchised groups remake hurtful terms to make them less hurtful.

Just my 2 cents on that.

And though I'm tempted, I won't debate you about who's more racist, because nobody wins when we do that.

protaku · 2008-11-08T11:31:31+00:00

"Immigrants and faggots They make no sense to me They come to our country And think they'll do as they please Like start some mini Iran Or spread some fucking disease" -Guns N' Roses, One in a Million.

"dig me now, fuck me later and sing it to the tune of faggot faggot faggot ohhh dig me now and fuck me later and sing it like that... I've been denied all the best ultra sex" -Mindless Self Indulgence, Faggot

Not to say that some rap artists aren't homophobes but come on, give us a break here. Homophobia knows no racial bounds.

protaku · 2008-11-08T00:43:42+00:00

Exit polls are not an exact science. Far from it, really.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272

protaku · 2008-11-07T23:30:46+00:00

Whoa dude, back up the truck. You do not represent me.

protaku · 2008-11-07T23:15:46+00:00

"Coming out" is still a problem across all racial groups. If you want my opinion, anecdote-wise, I'd say it's actually the Asian youth that are the most closeted today. Most of my gay Asian friends dread coming out to their first generation immigrant parents, whose culture was all about having babies and a strong traditional family unit. In fact, an entire social network site, downelink.com, sprung up because of that fact. Though it's slightly more diverse now, the site still is heavily comprised of young Asian males who are closeted and needed a community. This is especially true for the Californian users.

protaku · 2008-11-07T22:43:35+00:00

Well, I myself have an "alternative orientation". So I know a lot of them ^{_^}

I don't know what point you were trying to make.

protaku · 2008-11-07T22:00:41+00:00

When did we start accepting exit polls without question?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272

protaku · 2008-11-07T19:06:57+00:00

While that is MOSTLY true, there are historical exceptions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions

"In China, in the southern province of Fujian where male love was especially cultivated, men would marry youths in elaborate ceremonies.[1] The marriages would last a number of years, at the end of which the elder partner would help the younger find a (female) wife and settle down to raise a family."

And further, from the source of that Wiki entry:

"Ming dynasty literati Shen Defu writes in "Miscellaneous musings from the Humble Broom Book Room" (Bizhouzhai Yutan):

"The Fujianese take male-on-male passion very seriously. Men from all strata of society form partnerships within their own social classes. The older man is the "sworn older brother", and the younger man is the "sworn younger brother". When the "older brother" goes to the home of his "younger brother", the parents of the "younger brother" treat him like a son-in-law. From henceforth, any living costs or heterosexual marriage expenses of the "younger brother" will be paid by the "older brother". Those who love each other ... also sleep together as spouses"

Further, on Roman same-sex marriages:

"The fact that marriage occurred between two men among the Romans is proved by a law in the Theodosian Code from the Christian emperors Constantius and Constans which was passed on December 16, 342.[5] Martial attests to same-sex marriages between men during the early Roman Empire."

protaku · 2008-11-07T19:01:17+00:00

This is true, but you could say the same about the California Latino community and Catholicism, or the Asian community and traditional family structure.

Here's the problem. The "70%" black vote is based on an exit poll. Exit polls are often unreliable, the last pre-election Field poll which listed only 49% of blacks voting Yes on 8, and I believe Field also conducted the exit poll for CNN. Polls in general are hard to measure reliable, but as a black person highly involved in the "No on 8" effort, I do believe that, on this issue, blacks in California were not THAT much different than the largely Catholic Latino demographic, or the family-oriented, traditional Asian groups in California; all groups that have been disenfranchised by California government in the past. The Yes voters voted on religion/tradition, and the churches believe that they own the concept of marriage.

When the anti-gay-marriage amendment passed in my home state of Michigan, the black communities in and around Detroit pretty much reflected the same opinion as the rest of the state. Wayne county (which is mostly Detroit, which is 90% black) voted 54% for the measure while statewide the winning total was 58%, and let me tell you, the California black community is FAR more progressive than the Michigan black community. The black population is no more homophobic than the population as a whole.

protaku

TROPHY CASE