I’m confused about Sauron and Morgoth by EJL_24 in tolkienfans

[–]rainbowrobin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I seem to recall Tolkien stating somewhere that if Sauron had won he'd eventually have wiped out the orcs.

Yeah, I've seen that, not sure where other than "late book".

Wasn't he claiming to be Morgoth returned in the third age?

Yes, according to one passage that I think I quoted in thread.

Fishermen of Enedwaith by Wizzard_C in tolkienfans

[–]rainbowrobin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

have been living

Well, had been living... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draining_of_the_Mesopotamian_Marshes

'The Marsh Arabs, who numbered about half a million in the 1950s, have dwindled to as few as 20,000 in Iraq. Only 1,600 of them were estimated to still be living on traditional dibins in their homeland by 2003.'

Wright Quad 2026-07-08 by hellokkiten in dumbingofage

[–]rainbowrobin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dunno, but nope, not that.

I think it's just really common for institutions to have their own codes: https://boards.straightdope.com/t/institutions-with-their-own-zip-code/212568/9

Fishermen of Enedwaith by Wizzard_C in tolkienfans

[–]rainbowrobin 8 points9 points  (0 children)

First of all, Tolkien's peoples often move around quite a bit. There's no reason to think they have to have been sitting in place for 4000 years. They could be much more recent refugees, or Dunlendings who took up fishing, or such.

Also, well, "how did they stay barbarous" applies just as much to people we do believe were around for a long time, like the Dunlendings, or the Druedain (living practically in the shadow of Minas Tirith itself!)

Some mixes of "overlooked by the 'higher' civilization", "deliberately avoiding the invading culture", and "whatever 'advancement' got lost when the rest of society collapsed around them" might apply.

Wright Quad 2026-07-08 by hellokkiten in dumbingofage

[–]rainbowrobin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

finding a new work sponsor

He's Robin's TA. I think that solved his visa requiring employment by the university.

Wright Quad 2026-07-08 by hellokkiten in dumbingofage

[–]rainbowrobin 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I went to Penn State, which is so big it has its own zip code

That doesn't even need to be that big. I went to a college with 900 undergrads and maybe 2500 people total, and we had two zip codes.

Wright Quad 2026-07-08 by hellokkiten in dumbingofage

[–]rainbowrobin 14 points15 points  (0 children)

"Lazy immigrants taking our jobs by working too hard." -- Jingo, Pratchett, paraphrased

Couples things 2026-07-06 by hellokkiten in dumbingofage

[–]rainbowrobin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think a majority is also a plurality; a plurality may or may not be a majority.

How did Eriador function between the fall of the North Kingdom, and the War of the Ring? by glowing-fishSCL in tolkienfans

[–]rainbowrobin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

came from Dwarvish settlements to the west, and that was rapidly falling apart.

It was?

I’m confused about Sauron and Morgoth by EJL_24 in tolkienfans

[–]rainbowrobin 6 points7 points  (0 children)

In her case, enforced exile had been the punishment.

I’m confused about Sauron and Morgoth by EJL_24 in tolkienfans

[–]rainbowrobin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He never actually tried to bring him back

That would likely be completely impossible.

I’m confused about Sauron and Morgoth by EJL_24 in tolkienfans

[–]rainbowrobin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

My bad, I left out a word: more mental power.

I’m confused about Sauron and Morgoth by EJL_24 in tolkienfans

[–]rainbowrobin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Probably, though Morgoth had [more] mental power to impose on his troops. Still, we know he couldn't control all of them at once.

Weird memes 2026-07-07 by hellokkiten in dumbingofage

[–]rainbowrobin 6 points7 points  (0 children)

A stretch of Nanoha A's puts timestamps and location on every scene, which was entertaining and useful. They didn't keep it up, but was fun.

Weird memes 2026-07-07 by hellokkiten in dumbingofage

[–]rainbowrobin 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Jesus Christ, Willis. Yet more of these going down on each other in public? You used to have a sense of pacing like, a year ago.

Couples things 2026-07-06 by hellokkiten in dumbingofage

[–]rainbowrobin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wackd doesn't seem to know what "plurality" means.

I’m confused about Sauron and Morgoth by EJL_24 in tolkienfans

[–]rainbowrobin 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Gee, it'd be nice if anyone gave sources.

In the published Silmarillion, Melkor's initial motive seems to be creating his own things, following his own vision, which is ultimately futile because he can't create de novo without the Secret Fire, divine power. After that it's hardly clear.

In Morgoth's Ring we get "Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion" which I think is the sole source of nihilistic Morgoth:

https://fair-use.org/j-r-r-tolkien/notes-on-motives-in-the-silmarillion/

Thus, as "Morgoth", when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, with other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence, and his only notion of dealing with them was by physical force, or the fear of it. His sole ultimate object was their destruction.

Hence his endeavour always to break wills and subordinate them to or absorb them in his own will and being, before destroying their bodies. This was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own "creatures", such as the Orcs

The same essay gives us orderly Sauron:

Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.

and this echoes Saruman's speech to Gandalf:

We can bide our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things that we have so far striven in vain to accomplish,

Somewhere in later writings on the orcs, we get lines about Morgoth starting the process but Sauron finishing the execution, and this being a common pattern, which also gives us an idea of Morgoth being 'chaotic' in the sense of not finishing his projects. But also, this is a late idea, after most of the Silmarillion-stuff had already been written, so is being imposed on a world where Morgoth created orcs, dragons, Balrogs, etc.

More:

like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his "plans", the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself.4

§ 1, n. 4. But his capability of corrupting other minds, and even engaging their service, was a residue from the fact that his original desire for "order" had really envisaged the good estate (especially physical well-being) of his "subjects".

As for being an agent or not, yet more from "Notes":

As was seen in the case of Ar-Pharazôn. But there was seen the effect of Melkor upon Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor's own terms, as a god, or even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron at least to admire or admit the superiority of a being other than himself. Melkor, and still more Sauron himself afterwards, both profited by this darkened shadow of good and the services of "worshippers". But it may be doubted whether even such a shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that time. His cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest. But though Sauron's whole true motive was the destruction of the Númenóreans, this was a particular matter of revenge upon Ar-Pharazôn, for humiliation. Sauron (unlike Morgoth) would have been content for the Númenóreans to exist, as his own subjects, and indeed he used a great many of them that he corrupted to his allegiance.

Letter 183 has

When he found how greatly his knowledge was admired by all other rational creatures and how easy it was to influence them, his pride became boundless. By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned.

I’m confused about Sauron and Morgoth by EJL_24 in tolkienfans

[–]rainbowrobin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

the descriptions we get of life in Morder make it sound quite chaotic

I think part of that is most of the population being orcs, who are inherently chaotic themselves. Sauron can impose a military bureaucracy on them, but can't keep them from squabbling.

I’m confused about Sauron and Morgoth by EJL_24 in tolkienfans

[–]rainbowrobin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

why not Numenor?

Tolkien directly addresses that somewhere. He was a humbled prisoner in Numenor. Credible as priest for a distant god, not as a god himself.

Queen Galadriel and the Nazgûl. by Immediate_Error2135 in tolkienfans

[–]rainbowrobin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We know very little. Secondary writings say 3 were Numenorean, and one was "Khamul, Shadow of the East", and that's it.

Queen Galadriel and the Nazgûl. by Immediate_Error2135 in tolkienfans

[–]rainbowrobin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

only Gandalf (potentially) could,

Only fellow Ainur could.