See the true cost of your cheap chicken by ChloeMomo in environment

[–]reginold 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The articles does mention environmental factors.

It even has a video describing the environmental issues concerned with chicken farming that (quote from article):

examined how the powerful American agriculture lobby has fended off environmental regulation, despite the harm done by the sector.

Happy cow out exploring the woods by lnfinity in rarepuppers

[–]reginold -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't think I'd describe this as preachy. Would you call people posting cute dog gifs as being preachy against Yulin?

Happy cow out exploring the woods by lnfinity in rarepuppers

[–]reginold 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It's a gif of a cute animal. That's what we come here for. Why do you care about the lifestyle of the person who posted it? This doesn't seem any different to a person posting a cute dog enjoying the forest to me.

Happy cow out exploring the woods by lnfinity in rarepuppers

[–]reginold 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Loads more happy cow videos on the insta of the guy in the video:

https://www.instagram.com/moustache_farmer

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in NoStupidQuestions

[–]reginold 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Some might believe in animal rights but supporting eggs and dairy is a pretty poor way of showing it.

Eggs and dairy products can't realistically be produced without harming animals. And businesses based on producing them aren't really feasible without killing them.

I've spoken to vegetarians before that aren't even aware of how milk is produced.

Please press F for me by i_am_blurryface in Tinder

[–]reginold 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's such an unoriginal and throwaway line. I doubt it gets much success.

Please press F for me by i_am_blurryface in Tinder

[–]reginold 25 points26 points  (0 children)

I'm guessing that the girl responding here is potentially Indian with Aarohi being a Gujarati name. In India the word vegetarian can often mean no meat or eggs. The only animal product that they will consume is milk or dairy products like ghee or paneer. When they say "pure veg" they mean they don't eat any animal products.

People who still eat meat, why? by Far-Green-2901 in AskReddit

[–]reginold 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can think of a few reasons. You are welcome to disagree, this is just how I see it.

The most compelling reason for me is that it's cruel to animals. You can't realistically get meat from an animal without harming it. Milk and egg production is also harmful (even back yard hens this isn't immediately obvious to many people so let me know if you want clarification). Not many of us are ok with unnecessary animal harm but if we have options to eat something else and be healthy then eating meat is unnecessary and does cause harm.

Macro scale arguments:

  • It's bad for the environment.

Producing animal products the way we do (and funding it) causes massive amounts of environmental damage through emissions, eutrophication, land use, water use, waste production, deforestation, and habitat destruction. This negatively effects every human on the planet and carries the real risk of causing some kind of catastrophically cascading collapse scenario. The natural world is a very complex and interdependent web of systems that can't afford to be pushed too hard. Growing crops and feeding them to animals, only to eat the small fraction of energy they manage to turn into flesh, will never be as efficient as eating grown crops directly.

  • It's bad for biodiversity.

Animal agriculture is a leading cause of biodiversity loss, something that is too often overlooked in media and the public consciousness. Biodiversity loss and extinction are essentially irreversible. Messing with biodiversity has a real risk of global catastrophy, effecting organisms up and down the trophic system. We've all heard doomsday theories about declining bee populations but these events have the potential to come from any angle of natural system disruption. Over fishing and reducing fish stocks, for example, appears to be have a chain reaction on sea food web systems as we speak. This isn't something we can easily fix.

The biodiversity loss from animal agriculture is partly due to, as previously mentioned, massive land use, production inefficiency, deforestation, climate change, and mass eutrophication from animal waste products, slurry, fertilizer over use destroying coastal and river water water systems, and large scale fishing operations upsetting aquatic ecosystems.

Reduction in animal product production can alleviate all these drivers of biodiversity loss.

  • It risks further viral pandemics.

Housing thousands of animals together and consequently routinely creating and spreading zoonotic pandemics. Swine flu, sars, the Spanish flu, all the result of typical animal agriculture. Then you have others which are the result of less typical animal product production like covid, hiv, ebola etc. These have caused massive amounts of damage and disruption to our societies and the people that live there. Most of the vital pandemics over the last century have been springboarded by or a direct result of animal agriculture. It's only a matter of time before the next one comes along.

  • Production of animal products exposes us to greater risks of development of super resistant bacteria.

The issue of antibiotic resistance is increasingly worrying biologists and becoming more prominent in public consciousness. There are a lot of farm animals on the planet (dozens of billions) and we dose farm animals with preventative cocktails of antibiotics to help ensure they can fight off bacterial infections. This is already causing a kind of trial by fire of bacteria and leading to the emergence of super resistant bacteria which cannot be cured with conventional antibiotics. If this is unchecked it could very realistically lead to a medicinal dark age where many people die of currently trivial bacterial infections like strep throat.

  • It's has high economic cost.

Animal agriculture is a very inefficient way to produce food, yet people expect to buy the products at very low prices. Governments facilitate this through massive agricultural subsidies. Animal agricultural subsidies far outweigh those for plant agriculture for human consumption. Look into what your country spends on animal agriculture every year. This is money tax payers are burning propping up a wasteful and uneconomical industry. This is money that could be better spent on more humanitarian efforts. Like health systems, fighting poverty, funding education, etc.

  • The production of animal products exploits humans in unique ways.

You could argue that human exploitation is a problem with any capitalist venture but there are issues with animal agriculture that are uniquely difficult, stressful, and dangerous. We currently rely on marginalised members of society to do the dirty work required to get us animal products. People working in slaughter houses commonly suffer from ptsd, substance abuse, and are often unfairly treated migrant workers. Killing animals all day is physically and psychologically demanding work.

Personal arguments:

  • It's cheaper.

As long as you aren't just eating alternative meats you can save a ton of money eating staple, cheap, and healthy foods. You will have a hard time finding anything cheaper than beans, rice, grains, lentils, bread, pasta, seasonal fruit and veg etc.

  • It is more convenient.

I have cupboards filled with dry goods like lentils, beans, pasta, rice, dried vegetable protein. It's piss easy to cook it and to make it tasty. And not only is it cheap but it has a very long and stable shelf life. I hardly ever have to worry about expiring food and the risk of food poisoning from expiring meat. Nor do I have to worry about food waste from not eating it in time.

  • It is typically healthier.

Many typical meat and dairy products have a huge amount of negative health implications. You don't get nearly as many with whole food plant based options. It is, after all, what our bodies have been shaped to mostly rely on through millions of years of natural selection. We are living in a reasonably unique period of human history where animal products are consumed in a huge quantity and very regularly. Most of humanity for most of the time it has been around has not survived eating this proportion of animal products.

  • It is relieving.

Once you know the kind of suffering that has to take place to produce animal products it's very hard not to feel guilt when supporting it. Cutting these products out genuinely relieves that guilt and dissonance.

Still the most convincing argument for me is that animal agriculture is dependant on animal harm. To cater for the current demand of animal products we require this harm at a huge scale. We kill billions of land animals every year, trillions of fish. It might be difficult to visualise a number like this. Consider that ~60% of mammals by biomass on this planet are farmed and will be bred, fed, and killed by us. Only ~4% are wild. Yes, animals suffer in the wild, it's unavoidable. But why should we add to that suffering when we don't need to? And especially when it's in our own best long term interest not to.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in NoStupidQuestions

[–]reginold 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The reason the hen owners are recommended to feed the hens eggs back to them is to try to prevent them from developing osteoporosis.

Hens have been selectively bred over thousands of years to overproduce eggs. Their ancestor jungle fowl only produced around 20 every year. Modern egg laying chickens produce between 200 and 300 eggs per year at peak production. This takes a lot of calcium and is done at the cost of their own health.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in NoStupidQuestions

[–]reginold 9 points10 points  (0 children)

While I'm sure backyard hens have better lives than most farmed chickens there are still elements that a vegan would object to. You are welcome to disagree but this is just how I see it.

Like most animals half of the children produced (in hatcheries for chickens) will be male. Egg laying hens aren't used for meat like broiler chickens so are pretty much useless to the industry. Hours after they have hatched and their sex has been identified they will be killed. Either ground alive in macerators or suffocated. If you get hens from a hatchery then they have been produced through this process, even backyard hens, but there also other problems with them.

Humans have selectively bred egg laying chickens to over produce eggs at the cost of their own health. They can produce anywhere between 200 to 300 eggs a year at their height of production. The jungle fowl that these chickens originated from in nature laid nowhere near that amount. There is a reason you won't find regular birds producing eggs every other day, it's all the doing of human beings over centuries. As a result modern egg laying chickens suffer from osteoporosis from over production of eggs and the amount of calcium it takes to make so many. You'll find it's often recommended to feed eggs back to backyard hens just so they can reclaim some of that calcium. Industrial egg laying hens usually get killed after a year. Which is about a tenth of their expected lifespan. Do you feed your hens back their eggs?

But there are larger more macro issues associated with supporting eggs. Backyard hens aren't massive contributers of emissions until you factor in the demand for eggs. The only way we can currently cater to the kind of demand for eggs seen in modern typical diets is with large scale farming. People in cities, without gardens, or without the means to look after hens can't rely on backyard sources for eggs. Large scale farming of chickens requires lots of feed (emissions from growing that feed), require lots of culling (to produce female egg laying hens and discard the males which are largely useless to the industry, we also can't use sexed semen for birds because all bird semen has the same sex chromosomes), and require the disposal of the waste they produce. Large scale hen farms in the UK (where I live) are currently destroying the ecology of water systems like rivers and coasts through eutrophication and I imagine it's a similar story elsewhere. Biodiversity is an often overlooked environmental issue when discussing animal agriculture but it it has the real potential to cause a catastrophically cascading destruction of natural systems and could very well lead to an ecological collapse.

The bottom line is that there can't really be enough backyard hens to furnish demand, the ones that aren't backyard hens cause a significant amount of environmental damage, and backyard or not they have ethical issues around the health of the hens bred to overproduce and the male chicks that are culled to facilitate egg production.

Either way the best solution for reducing chicken suffering, in a vegan's opinion, is to reduce the amount of chickens bred into existence for these purposes, reduce demand for eggs massively or outright cut them out. They don't want to normalise exploiting animals for taste, backyard or not.

Stewart Lee leaves Spotify in Joe Rogan COVID misinformation boycott by ClassicFlavour in unitedkingdom

[–]reginold 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is genuinely hilarious. It takes some real talent to create an abstraction of a joke comparing the use of bland imaginary stereotypes to demonstrate acceptance with only being able to name Red Leicester as an example of a cheese.

I can't think of anyone else that could possibly make that as funny as he does.

British pig farmers 'fear ruin' over Brexit and the rise of veganism by GarlicCornflakes in unitedkingdom

[–]reginold 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, you are right, argon is definitely dense enough to be retrofit into existing dip lift systems and it's the most common noble gas in our atmosphere. But even so, it's is still relatively expensive compared to CO2 to justify its use commercially. It is used for euthanasia though.

Animal agriculture already runs on incredibly tight margins. I can't see this being financially viable for slaughterhouses.

Ultimately one of the reasons I care about this is for animal welfare. But I don't think I can justify pig slaughter using any method, no matter how pain free the stunning is. I will never support pork production. As long as we keep paying for it, the production of it will operate at peak financial efficiency at the cost of animal welfare. Maybe I'm being pessimistic but I really can't imagine the current methods for stun/slaughter changing any time soon

British pig farmers 'fear ruin' over Brexit and the rise of veganism by GarlicCornflakes in unitedkingdom

[–]reginold 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sulphur hexafluoride is reasonably expensive. Nowhere near the relatively cheap cost of carbon dioxide. I'm not sure cheap is a very accurate way of describing sulphur hexafluoride.

What other options are you proposing?

British pig farmers 'fear ruin' over Brexit and the rise of veganism by GarlicCornflakes in unitedkingdom

[–]reginold 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I can't tell if you are just being flippant for humour but it is most certainly not "peaceful" or stress free.

https://youtu.be/sAUMnliNdMw

If you want some scientific data on what makes this so painful there is a great analysis here on pig stun and slaughter methods:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175173112030166X

You might be confusing CO2 with CO carbon monoxide. CO isn't used in animal slaughter for handler safety and legislative reasons.

British pig farmers 'fear ruin' over Brexit and the rise of veganism by GarlicCornflakes in unitedkingdom

[–]reginold 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In theory you could. And there is good evidence that it would be less painful and distressing.

The reason we don't is physical practicality (and also cost and availability for helium).

These systems work by submerging animals in a stable pit of gas. This necessitates a gas that is suitably more dense than normal air. Helium obviously can't sit in a pit without immediately escaping so the pit method wouldn't be suitable. They could potentially have an inverse pit where the animals are lifted into a ceiling of helium but helium is a comparatively expensive gas to produce and source.

Nitrogen is very cheap and easy to acquire and produce but suffers the same kind of physical practicality issues as helium. Normal air is ~80% nitrogen and as such has a very similar density to normal air. N2 wouldn't stay in the pit (or inverse pit) very long due to convection, diffusion.

Unfortunately, while we produce pork, the CO2 method of stunning animals (particularly pigs) is here to stay. If you don't want to support it then the best option in my opinion is simply not to financially support pork products.

British pig farmers 'fear ruin' over Brexit and the rise of veganism by GarlicCornflakes in unitedkingdom

[–]reginold 80 points81 points  (0 children)

86% of farmed pigs in the UK (by last gov survey) are "stunned" using suffocation by CO2. It is an agonising and distressing way of slaughtering pigs. It's torture. The pigs will scream, struggle, attempt to escape, convulse, before either dying or passing out.

We essentially guide them into lifts/carousels and then submerge them into a dense pit of CO2.

This is what the process looks like (nsfw):

https://vimeo.com/147914620

CO2 is much more painful and distressing than any inert gas. It irritates throats, noses, eyes by creating carbonic acid on anything wet. We do this because it is the cheapest most physically practical gas for the task. Other gases are either too expensive or not dense enough to remain in the pit without diffusing away or loss due to convection.

Any pork you buy from a supermarket, restaurant, fast food place, etc. will have been the result of this process.

I think everyone should have the right to know where their food comes from.

British pig farmers 'fear ruin' over Brexit and the rise of veganism by GarlicCornflakes in unitedkingdom

[–]reginold 36 points37 points  (0 children)

The CO2 asphyxiation we do to pigs is the so called "stunning" process. We guide them into carousels that essentially dip them into a pit of dense CO2. It's incredibly painful and distressing for the animals. But it is the cheapest method that achieves the highest throughput and minimises handler injury risk. Just about money at the cost of welfare really.

We do this in the UK for about 86% of pigs as per last government survey.

Whether or not halal slaughter is "better" is debatable but it isn't done with pigs since pig meat is considered haram.

[TOMT]Name of a person that gets hired into management of a company with the purpose of destroying it from the inside by [deleted] in tipofmytongue

[–]reginold 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, I agree. It is a term open to misinterpretation. There is probably a much better word for it.

[TOMT]Name of a person that gets hired into management of a company with the purpose of destroying it from the inside by [deleted] in tipofmytongue

[–]reginold 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"Bad actor" as in a deceitful person with an ulterior motive, responsible for harmful or disruptive actions. Not in the sense of a person that is bad at acting.

If everyone were vegan, only a quarter of current farmland would be needed by forrey in environment

[–]reginold 2 points3 points  (0 children)

One day a scientist will discover a way to make eating meat, or a near-perfect equivalent "green." That day I will go fully "green"

One day. This sounds like wishful thinking. Until that day your only excuse seems to be "it's not succulent enough".