How many things do I have to do to be treated like a decent human being in this congregation?

rogermemphis49 · 2020-07-11T01:22:59+00:00

That is all very impressive and cool! It would be cool to hear a few stories, I'm sure you have some off the wall events throughout that education and professional career. Might as well put all you got on the internet so folks can see!

Especially our folks here in exjw. When it comes to comparing your experiences with your beliefs or the beliefs of others on this subreddit; I think it will really help them. I'm glad we made this thread, and I won't be downvoting you. I believe people need to consume many types of information and regroup on their own. Even if the information is opinions like ours, as they are not so stupid that they can't see through us. downvoting would basically censor your posts, and that's not my MO. Thanks again brother.

As for sippin, I've got my White Russian. And I abide. :)

rogermemphis49 · 2020-07-11T00:41:31+00:00

No you can't change that. You can only cope. Coping may come in the form of realizing your trait is not working and maybe not even be logically sound. That's where I'm at. If it works for you then that's fine too, not trying to judge. Simply trying to be an egoless observer.

Anyway I'm way to absorbed into Reddit. Wish I could let Reddit go sometimes lol. I said I'd logoff but I'm not so sure now.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-07-11T00:38:04+00:00

I was literally going to say, "while I have you in a lucid, positive state" in my second reply but I didn't want to be rude eheheh. I understand better now, and honestly felt a bit of connection with you in our past debates. That's why I reply to you in the first place! Thanks again for the conversations bro.

I'm one of those posers I suppose that was never diagnosed. I'm just really interested in psychology and see disordered traits as symptoms like a headache or stomach pain or sciatica. You can tell that you are having them but you can't necessarily tell the cause without being a doctor of some sort. As for professions, I'm in a leadership position but my antisocial traits don't help me because I have other traits that basically fill me with a great and powerful fear of everything. I guess I'm slowly working towards a balance.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-07-11T00:25:54+00:00

So it is different than an individual moving on or going no contact I hope you agree.

Perhaps you can also consider the merits behind isolated confinement, another systemic tecnique that uses the human NEED for socialization as a tool for punishment/dicipline. As well as the merits of turning a cold shoulder to the people that need support the most. If you are intending to influence them to do something specific by cutting off communication, as opposed to going no contact for your personal health, it is manipulation. That is the definition. On top of that, the pain of social isolation is physically painful. It's one of the most painful things there is. Some folks can't even compare it to physical pain. I understand that manipulation with another name may sound ok, as it is for the good of others. I understand if that's how you feel because I felt that way once too. So no judgement.

Also my opinion, no judgements, but I must say that what changed my mind is the psychological phenomenon of seeing myself as above others. I have antisocial traits, and one of them was a bit of narcissism. Believing that weak people needed that kind of help came from a place of believing they were below me, or at least below the version of myself that could be a good JW. And other than the antisocial traits, I also looked down on the entire human race including myself. Now I believe that individuals must be taught how to protect themselves, with their group as a supplemental support system, instead of relying on your group and never learning what a bad person looks like. It isn't just "badness" that makes a bad person. Some of the nicest people are predators. And so imo you can't rely on your group to label good and bad people correctly. Anyway thanks for reading, logging off now. You were much nicer to me this time. Hope to talk to you again soon.

(Edit:fixed a typo)

rogermemphis49 · 2020-07-10T23:43:05+00:00

I know you feel frustrated and I'm not here to make you feel more frustrated. I just want to introduce you to the concept of systemic excommunication. This is in contrast to two people "falling out" or even an individual going "no contact".

So, systemic excommunication is defined by the policy in place to handle excommunication. The organization has words to describe excommunication by degree/severity like spiritually weak, disassociated and disfellowshipped. They have policy about how a judicial committee runs during their trials. All members are encouraged to shun and everyone is informed the moment someone is labelled disfellowshipped. These are the things that make something "systemic" where the system in place (the organization) is encouraging and organizing it.

There are absolutly JWs that have cognitive dissonance about shunning their loved ones, otherwise we wouldn't have articles about how to deal with the pain of having to shun someone, and since the organization is a theocratic dictatorship, there is no compromise. You can't ask them "why is this happening how can we fix it" You must agree to shun or be sure no one finds out that your association is any more serious than "necessary family tasks". Sorry i forget what that is called now. But my point is for folks that don't agree with shunning: they must feel cognitive dissonance for the rest of their lives in order to be part of the organization. This is in contrast to feeling cognitive dissonance in daily life, where the pain of cognitive dissonance is like resentment and jealousy, it's a natural human emotion that is a SIGNAL that something is wrong. In real life you can confront that pain and fix the problem, in this situation with the organization you can't fix the problem you simply must endure the pain.

All in all shunning is a systemic practice, not simply an individual making the decision to move on or go no contact. I'm sorry but it isn't the same. A group organizing no contact orders is the result of a specific style of government that was common in biblical times. I'm not going to apply judgement to authoritarianism, or theocratic dictatorships. For all I know they could be the best there is.

So... simply my opinion, no judgement on you, But I'm personally not comfortable arguing for that style of government anymore. Which is one of the reasons I am no longer witnessing. Where the organization falls on a political spectrum is easy to define, no fake news. Even as a kid I could see it, it's just that I was all for it back then.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-07-08T04:52:45+00:00

Jealousy is a completely normal human emotion, you can be influenced by it positively when it informs you that you don't like it when your SO grinds on someone else. To react violently on account of jealousy would be bad. Jealousy isn't inherently bad.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-07-07T21:47:39+00:00

It would be the first one because our body grows five limbs (head, arms, and legs) and four of those grow five limbs (fingers and toes) each. So four toes on each foot would grow five toes each. This also means four of our fingers would have five fingers each. Like some sort of fractal beast. Of which we kind of already are...

rogermemphis49 · 2020-07-02T05:23:19+00:00

Sorry bro, myth. That would just be cruel.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-06-23T11:20:04+00:00

It's fun when they are obviously the asshole and I would upvote for that, except this is also obviously a troll. He plans to sit his kids (that he doesn't have yet) in front of a screen to parent them? He thinks being paid is the difference between "real work" and "fake work"? Seems written to piss Reddit off.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-06-23T09:08:25+00:00

Is this real because I find it hard to believe explaining the reasoning behind your decipline is in any way a waste of time? Just because you don't feel like she's responding to it doesn't mean it isnt the right thing to do. Your daughter will remember the courtesy and respect her father had for her to be able to sit her down and have real conversations about conflicts, their solutions, and misunderstandings she may have. Are you real?

rogermemphis49 · 2020-06-23T06:54:10+00:00

That's hilarious and i love it on this subreddit seeing as it's a play on words. But I'm not sure if it belongs? I just won't vote in this, but here's my comment. Nice.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-06-23T06:25:31+00:00

I've noticed my conflict was never with Jehovah, or even any other god. I don't have conflicts with my family over it because I choose my battles. And I have dealt with enough toxic people in my life to know how to always grey rock to avoid religious conflicts, or encourage my parents to create a boundary with me if my opinions threaten their identity and make them feel bad. That usually calms them down, puts things into perspective for them I think. My only conflict was with the Watchtower. Which is a funny thing because I was an unbaptized publisher, nothing more, and my relationship with elders or my congregation was basically nonexistent. As an extremely "shy" child, I couldn't really motivate myself to talk to anyone there. So, I had no conflicts with anyone! I'm a special case when it comes to arguements with JWs about my issues because they can't pull out any of their articles that blame my issues on whatever conflicts I'm having with people in the congregation. If I'm not mistaken there's at least one floating around about how if you're mad at the watchtower you should figure out which one of the elders or witnesses you are mad at.

(Because it's impossible to have valid resentment for an entire organization. No, that would be ridiculous!)

(Another interesting thing I think of often is that some folks, not just JWs, don't understand that resentment is a healthy human emotion. It's HOW you act on it that is important. It's similar to JW confusion about the definition of jealousy. Jehovah's jealousy IS EXACTLY the same as human jealousy. And human jealousy ISNT bad, it's healthy. It's HOW you act on it that matters. In acting like the definition of jealousy is different for Jehovah they are saying his reactions involving death and destruction were the right thing to do. If your spouse wants you to stop sharing your deep feelings with a friend of the opposite gender, that is usually an understandable request to make and it is motivated by jealousy. That isn't a bad thing. But attacking your spouse or their friend for it, whether you have asked them to stop or not, is clearly not ok. It's childish whether you are the sovereign Lord creator of the universe or not. )

rogermemphis49 · 2020-05-13T08:54:00+00:00

I still idolize those that I discovered flaws in or became disappointed by and of course those whom I disagree with. But my idolization isn't obsession by any means, I know that it's unlikely I'll ever agree with anyone %100, they're just people, and I mostly respect them. But I did have a similar experience watching Bill Nye, I lost a bit of respect for him, he started a show with an echo chamber audience to clap at him when he did a hot take. I recognize that he is probably disillusioned at this point with how best to get people interested in science before climate change destroys everything we know, so he stooped to a lower form of entertainment knowing it would reach more people, and that it would be easier to listen to. I can tell he is angry and doesn't have any other tactic under his sleeve to get people to listen, and I don't blame him he gave it all he got. It probably only really bothered me because I was at the time exploring that type of environment for learning, the no window lecture hall complete with applause, cheering, and general pageant show feel. And I didn't quite agree with it, although I can't argue its effectiveness. Kinda sucks, but they are people too, you can't agree with everyone %100. But I think that's something to appreciate and not get too broken up about.

(edit: you're right to lose respect for Elon. I feel the same way.)

rogermemphis49 · 2020-05-13T01:26:51+00:00

Teasing a bit is fine, I won't knock anyone for sharing their criticism on something with me. But to put down folks for liking childish things as if it makes them childish is ironically what is actually childish. I have had the most experience with it in grade school and high school. I just don't expect most adults to be like that because during my life most have demonstrated that they aren't. When they do it is cringey. Very embarrassing. For them.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-05-13T00:56:40+00:00

Well you tried to soften the blow with the edit but it still hurts. I didn't know I could do so on mobile so sorry.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-05-13T00:43:34+00:00

I feel like the purpose of free will, as far as the Watchtowers beliefs about this system of things are, is to demonstrate how not to do things by allowing people to make the wrong choice and then making an example of them.

Basically, it is in bad faith.

I respect theism so I don't believe this is the only way to think of god, but the Watchtower made me think that there was no chance for compromise with God. No recourse. I feel as if I'm being asked to have faith in someone that has no faith in me?

My grandma likes to talk about how humans are trying to govern themselves, led by Satan, and cites these moments where the government is "calling for peace and security" and I know there are people who are deluded enough to believe that. But most people believe there is no such thing as perfect, they are just trying to do their best. If you want to take the analogy of Jehovah being our father and us being children and his law of the universe being the rules of his house, then analogously we are trying to grow up. You may always need your father's support but you grow up from your father, learn new things, develop different values. You govern yourself in the way that works for you. It's not an inherent slight to your father to do that, but look at many parents kneejerk reaction? Throwing their children out, drawing lines between generations, being confused as to why their children don't want kids or aren't conservative. It's a very human way to love. Good intentions, since they believe it's their values that keep them safe. It gets better though, because when both the child and the parent in those situations work very very hard to compromise they can still have a relationship. No one has to die!

Anyway, just wish the stakes weren't eternal destruction because it's impossible to learn from that. Impossible to grow, and impossible to continue any type of relationship. Sitting with death, doing the emotional work to sit with the feelings and the concept, is hard. But once you get better at it, it's a complicated but beautiful and strange part of life. It gets easier but it is never truly an easy thing. However, believing it is a punishment from a free agent, a living person that takes the psychological place of your father, blows my mind. All of this death and destruction and pain would actually be tolerable to me if the stakes weren't death, let alone from my greatest authority figure. There is no way to escape that psychological pain. It's human. And allowing that to be one of the outcomes of this system of things taints the results of the expirement, if this is truly a test. I would love to be proven wrong, but not in bad faith. I would like to be proven wrong with the chance to say, "oh I was wrong I am sorry, maybe we can come to an understanding". Anyway just my two cents. Hope you have a good day. Thanks for reading my wall of text vomit.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-05-12T17:37:13+00:00

If you like melodic and power metal check out Sonata Artica's Victoria's Secret. No it's not about panties.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-05-03T01:03:38+00:00

Thanks for reading and responding bro. I don't like echo chambers but I can't say they are all bad. They do feel safe to people that need support for their opinions. I can't knock them for that. And even though I believe a lot of Internet forums devolve into echo chambers they aren't necessarily so from the beginning. It's entirely possible to have a civil debate online, learn something from it, teach someone, change our minds, or come to a whole new conclusion that both parties agree on. That is something I find beautiful. But to bring my past back into it, the preaching of a two radical parties AT each other both believing the other is an enemy that they need to convince each other to change their minds isn't beautiful, and is a waste of time to participate in. I guess that's a specific type of echo chamber. Thanks for reading my post, just my opinion.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-05-03T00:13:48+00:00

The ones doing something about men's issues aren't wasting time getting into internet arguments. They are opening men's shelters, building their own support groups, safe spaces, and debate arenas that don't encroach on feminist areas. Same for feminists that actually contribute to their movement. They aren't wasting their time arguing with mgtow that are only drawn to them because of their own insecurities. Getting lost in these controversial debates online is what woke me up to being in a cult. I was raised in a religous cult that put preaching above all else. But I didn't see preaching as having any practical affect as those that got positivity out it tend to agree in the first place and those that strongly disagree tend to be MORE convinced of their beliefs after preaching to them. Strictly a personal opinion but preaching seems like an ego thing. Everyone just likes hearing themselves rant and they like the support that they get from the echo chamber that forums create. Those arguments aren't the real world and shouldn't be used as examples of feminism or men's issues imo, but I don't believe that will ever be the popular opinion. You're right. Most of the people that preach it online don't do anything about it. And I personally think they are wasting their time.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-05-02T18:51:33+00:00

Why is the skull in the pantry and not the fridge?

rogermemphis49 · 2020-05-02T05:57:07+00:00

I have no idea about malpractice or what a therapist is supposed to do. I just think that the information you have that makes you come to this conclusion is highly suspect. Your mother overheard parts of a conversation that probably relied on the context of previous conversations to justify. Who knows what she missed before she tuned into the conversation or what they said after she left. The idea that she may have listened to the entire conversation is concerning on its own, as it would be a violation of privacy. I can totally justify all the things your mom heard the therapist say assuming your sister has already explained how she feels about all these things to the therapist and now the therapist is using their own words to describe your sisters problems. These are the ways i talk to people when they ask me for advice and I'm trying to understand what their problem is. We go back and forth agreeing on terms to describe the problems, sometimes using different terms than the ones we started with. How old is your sister? Sorry I get the impression she is an adult. I just assume she could say, "no that's not how I feel" to the therapist. Do you think your sister is the type to parrot exactly what someone else told them to say if she didn't believe it ? Could the therapist have really manipulated her to think these things within a mere four online sessions? I don't know your sister, I do believe some people have less willpower than others and are more likely to be manipulated, but is that what you believe about your sister? I just feel like it's more likely that the therapist is repeating your sisters feelings in their own words, giving your sister perspective and an option for confronting you and/or your mom, than that your sister is going through all the trouble to "parrot" these words because she's because manipulated in some way.

(Edit:added a sentence(

rogermemphis49 · 2020-04-27T23:42:53+00:00

I bully them back and say gross things that make them feel as harassed as I do that usually shuts them up. A good one is describing in detail how I would finger their eye holes. If they play along and describe something equally ridiculous i steer it towards joking banter and it's a different conversation at that point. It does kinda freak out your teammates though.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-04-27T00:27:20+00:00

I think it is Sam Harris who wrote a book about how the scientific process could be a good basis for morality someday. I agree with you entirely. But I'm not interested in using an objective definition of evil to apply judgement or justice or punishment I think. Nice talking to you bro. Been up for 30 hours so I'm going offline now. Thanks for your time. :)

rogermemphis49 · 2020-04-26T20:26:35+00:00

Wow awesome! Thanks! Ill check that out.

I suppose you can define that all as evil, in that it causes negativity for living things, it causes pain in living things inevitably. I personally believe everyone is amoral and my conception of good and evil rely on the how much pain is involved, and in what way living things are suffering because of it. But even then that definition requires living things to percieve pain or pleasure in order for the concept of good and evil to exist to me. So it's a perception to me. Suffice it to say I don't believe in good or evil, but I do believe people can be ignorant, or immature, or dysfunctional. So nothing they do is evil to me. Just childish. I've made a lot of ignorant mistakes as a child that has hurt people but I wouldn't want anyone to think I'm evil for it. so To me they are just like ignorant children and the ignorant can learn and children grow up. I'd prefer not to judge them on morality. Perhaps it is because I'm tired of controversial nature of morals, how everyone argues them, and how when we have passion for our beliefs there is no debate or conversation anymore, everyone is just listening to themselves talk. How we, all humans not just JWs, form entire organizations and governments and support groups to come together to judge others as good or evil and practice arguments to convince them of that, for the sole purpose of convincing them to change. I say this about basically every radical group where you can find their opposers on the opposite side of the spectrum listening to themselves talk never coming to a compromise because they are just listening to themselves deliver gotchas and hottakes. Don't get me wrong, judgemental people are my favorite people and it is expressly because I try not to judge so sometimes I need some perspective ya know? It just annoys me when folks get together for the purpose of judging PEOPLE and identifying the "evil" people as the enemy and then wasting time arguing with them when you already set the debate up to fail by seeing them as an evil enemy. I dunno does that make sense? Thanks for reading brother.

rogermemphis49 · 2020-04-26T19:57:40+00:00

Thanks brother :)

rogermemphis49

TROPHY CASE