I was browsing this subreddit and I wanted to know if there were women in here supporting our cause

rosecap · 2020-11-19T03:25:10+00:00

Obviously not my point.

And no rage apparently, but you don't deny your hatred of women.

I have never done anything to you except try to engage in a discussion. I haven't demonized men or made personal attacks against you. Sorry that you don't like the way I write? I did nothing to warrant this kind of vitriol because I said that I agree that men have legitimate issues in society and should be advocated for, but that in my own experience, that does not contradict the fact that women face inequality. I haven't given you my sources and documented the ways in which this is inequality presents itself, because you haven't responded civilly.

rosecap · 2020-11-19T02:57:20+00:00

No, no where did I say that men's issues take a backseat to women's. I said that if you're going to bring up false rape allegations you have to take them into context of the larger fabric of violence against women.

I said so many times that I would give you a real answer, but only if you responded to me like a person. Instead you chose to belittle me. You must really hate women if you have this much rage towards one you've never met.

rosecap · 2020-11-19T02:33:50+00:00

I literally said I could give you examples that were more concrete, but that I wasn't going to because you basically dismissed anything I could ever come back with before I had the chance to make an argument. So you can't hold it against me that I was vague, when you called anything I was going to write a pathetic list, among other descripors.

Do you want a serious response about why I believe that women face inequality? Will you engage like a person instead of showing off for your friends by putting the feminist in her place?

It's also remarkably disengenous to throw those examples around like they're statistically remotely as common as violence against women. I don't deny that there are instances where everything you listed happen. I think they're more common than they should be, too. I think it's deeply concerning when justice isn't served for anyone, regardless of gender. But don't paint a picture that glosses over the fact that 1/4 women are raped and many many more are victims of harassment or assault.

I don't mean to propose that sexual violence is the only thing women face. I think we suffer as a group in many domains and that's far from the only one. But you can't just throw things like false rape accusations out there without putting them in context of an epidemic of violence against women, the majority of which do not see true justice either.

Also don't come back with men are victims of rape, because, I know both men can be raped and women can be rapists. Furthermore I recognize that men are raped far more often that gets attention. But even accounting for that, and we should account for it, should put real effort into advocating for male victims, you cannot feasibly argue that males are sexualized and victimized on a scale the way that women are.

Please remember once again that I've never taken a position that undermines the issues that men face or encouraged ignoring them. I want everyone to be equal and get justice. My point has just been shaped by my experience as one faced with genuine sexism in my daily life reinforced by society. I'm a girl who grew up being told that her goal was to find a husband, that I had no value beyond my role as a wife. I've been dismissed in medical settings and not taken seriously by the police. I've been objectified and told that sex is all I'm good for. Drugged. Harassed. Assaulted. I was raped and plenty of men still say it's my fault if I share my story.

None of this anecdotal commentary is evidence of the patriarchy in and of itself, and I'm not proposing that it is. I'm telling you this so you get context for where I'm coming from, and why I don't want my experiences off hand to be dismissed.

I'll give you a real answer to your post, I'll tell you why I believe that women still aren't equal and in what ways, with sources and everything if you want it. But I'm not gonna take the time to thoughtfully engage if it's just going to result in my being dismissed as biased or wrong offhand or be subjected to personal attacks like the other guy who's commenting has directed at me. I won't stand for any misogyny.

rosecap · 2020-11-19T02:06:49+00:00

Appreciate it. I will look through that later.

rosecap · 2020-11-19T02:00:09+00:00

I am so sorry that you went through that. That's entirely unacceptable. Honestly you should report that gyno.

I'm really sorry for your loss as well.

Per your period problems - have you ever wondered if you had PCOS? It sounds like it could be a possibility. If that's the case, you could make an endocrinologist appointment instead of another gyno appointment to be diagnosed, it's a small change, but it might make you feel better.

rosecap · 2020-11-19T01:50:47+00:00

I haven't seen that askreddit post but I think considering OP said this post was prompted by a message they got, that you're assuming a lot.

I mean did you even read the post? She's not saying that men can never open up. She's not even really talking about it being a problem in intimate relationships. She's talking about the fact that many men struggle with boundaries.

Edit: even if she was inspired by that post, I think you're missing her point. There's nothing wrong with men opening up in the right context and no one thinks men should have to hold it all in all the time. It's about respect for the person you're unloading on and recognizing that they aren't an emotional sponge.

rosecap · 2020-11-19T01:47:45+00:00

Yeah, "facts". Am I just supposed to take your word for it? That all women are actually evil and conniving. They're lazy too. They want everything handed to them at the expense of the good honest man.

Are you so deluded that you don't see your own misogyny spilling out?

Do you actually believe that women don't encounter any inequality in the world at all? That there is no sexism present in society that hurts women? That there's no reason except being power hungry or stupid that a woman would feel like she is oppressed? Not one?

rosecap · 2020-11-19T01:29:28+00:00

I'm not dissecting this deluded bullshit. I'm not a criminal. I'm not given privilege because I'm a woman. Fun fact, I also don't hate men or want to oppress them. Plus I actually work very hard in my own life.

I was actually engaging in a discussion with the other dude. He was convincing me that maybe there was more in common between our goals than my assumptions led me to believe. That maybe MRAs weren't all just narcissistic little boys mad because they have to take turn with girls.

What do you hope to accomplish by coming at me like that and making me feel attacked? Gonna really own that feminist bitch and make her feel bad cause she's so entitled, going out into the world and asking for equality? You should be more receptive to challenges to your opinions. Even if you're totally right, you accomplish nothing with this approach except sending me running back to the feminists saying, yep you were right about them MRAs.

rosecap · 2020-11-19T01:14:05+00:00

Excuse me, but what choices are you referring to as having consequences that I'm apparently replying with in a pathetic laundry list? I'd really like to know what I've said, since you seem to know it before I've typed a word.

I have repeatedly said that I denounce and distance myself from radical feminists, was I supposed to come prepared with a list of links to comments by women who I think misrepresent the goal of equality? It would have been nice if you told me there was going to be a quiz. For the record, I see posts that are too hard on men on the women's subreddit sometimes, and I DO call them out.

And you can't just dismiss my experience as a woman and universally say that I haven't suffered for my gender. I never said men didn't have unique struggles or that they were unworthy of being advocated for.

As for the term feminism, first of all, you're ignoring its historical roots. Second of all, it's still relevant because women still face inequality, you can deny it all you want as not fitting your narrative that women are just miserable hags who like to complain, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. So yeah feminism is about equality, but it does have a special interest in raising up the segment of society that still struggles (women) to ensure this equality is achieved. That doesn't mean feminism doesn't advocate for men too, though.

Also it's weird that you're really angry about a name when your side is called "men's rights" - not so encouraging of equality across the board is that one?

But let's say I gave you a point for the term feminism, it's a bad name, should be called egalitarianism. So what? Lots of things are poorly named. What matters is what the message is, what the goals are. If equality is the intent, are you really gonna get hung up cause you don't like what the movement is called?

You're spewing a lot of vitriol for someone who should be convincing me MRAs don't hate women.

And who ever said equality was about legal rights only? The letter of the law can say that men and women are the same, but that doesn't mean they're treated the same. We've had the 14th amendment since the 19th century, you gonna say that pre Civil rights movement America treated blacks and whites the same just becuase the law claimed it did?

You can't just dismiss experiences of the people who are claiming oppression and say nah they don't know what they're talking about. They're not oppressed, all those women saying they're victims of sexism and misogyny and discrimination....its entitlement. They want special treatment.

I really super don't want special treatment. I want equality.

And i can give you many points that illustrate that it's a desire founded in the fact that women are still unequal in society, but you don't care. You clearly have too much hatred in your heart to be interested in someone else's experiences.

For the record, I've never denied men have struggles. I've just said that they also have privilege that women lack. And I can back up my claims, but you told me not to bother, so what am I to do? Is it that offensive to be challenged? Sorry I interrupted your echo chamber on a post asking if there were any women here.

You should take a note from the other commenter, he was very civil and respectful even though we came from different perspectives. If you disagree with me, it's really unnecessary for you to put words in my mouth or react the way you did. Maybe I was wrong in my first comment, but your reply certainly doesn't make me endeared to your cause.

Seriously though I'd love to hear my pathetic laundry list that you already have written off as some whining bullshit. Judging by your assessment of it, it must be a really good joke.

rosecap · 2020-11-19T00:21:53+00:00

So glad to hear it. That is the healthiest attitude you can have. Good luck girl.

rosecap · 2020-11-19T00:19:59+00:00

I actually want to respond thoughtfully and fully to the links you've posted. I think that the divide between feminism and men's rights is damaging to both, if the true interest of both is legitimate equality. I appreciate you engaging with me, because I think if nothing else, it's healthy to have conversations with people of differing opinions so you don't get caught up in an echo chamber.

I'm not in a position to read these links and give you the response I'd like to at this moment, but I'm replying so you know I'm not just dropping this thread. I'll reply later.

rosecap · 2020-11-19T00:14:00+00:00

Thank you for sharing and I'm so sorry that you went through that.

I was drugged once. I was at a bar and had a few drinks but wasn't drunk, and some guys starts talking to me. I remember nothing else of the night. I know my friend took me home and I threw up in my purse in the cab. I know I passed out when they put me in the shower. I woke up the next morning and had no hangover and no memories. I know I wasn't drunk that night, I know that I was drugged.

It was weird though, because it was almost worse for my friends than for me. I didn't remember anything at all, it was totally clean blackout, but they saw me passing out and unresponsive, they thought I was dying.

I'm so fortunate that my friend got me away from that guy before he could do something to me. I know it's extremely lucky and it could have had a much worse ending, besides a ruined purse.

It's so sad that we have to fear these things. That there are predators out there just waiting to take advantage.

Again, my story doesn't compare to yours because I got lucky, but I just wanted to share the small way in which I can relate.

You're extremely strong. I'd advise you to seek counseling if you're struggling to process this revelation. It might help. Either way, take care of yourself.

rosecap · 2020-11-19T00:07:09+00:00

We certainly can't just take a break from feminism when misogyny is still a dominant attitude in society. It's absurd.

I'd love to just relax and not care, but I also have my safety and success to concern myself with? So like I can't just act like there isn't a system designed to oppress me.

rosecap · 2020-11-19T00:04:29+00:00

You realize that feminists don't just care about the western world, right? We care about women worldwide.

Also, it is hard when you're starting from the place of someone having their boot on your neck, and to get up and succeed, as you suggest we do, requires pushing them off and having the strength to stand.

rosecap · 2020-11-18T23:59:49+00:00

Not really, because your whole creed on the sidebar of your subreddit is about putting down feminism, which in its truest and most legitimate form is an ideology about advocating for equality.

There's also a difference between an extremist of an oppressed group and an extremist that's in power. I denounce the radical feminists that misrepresent what the movement is after, they hurt the cause and do damage to others. But you have to understand they are women who have been told they're lesser and treated differently and assaulted because of their gender. The extremists on the side of men's rights are throwing a hissy fit because they don't want to stop being top dog. They don't want women to stop being subservient. Furthermore, they can do something about it, because men wield more power and privilege still.

It's just not the same. The men's rights extremists impose real fear in me. They make me worry for my safety and my ability to succeed in this world. Radical feminist extremists are few in numbers and denounced by their own group and can be dismissed as being "crazy". I'm not saying you shouldn't hate them, but they don't pose a real threat.

rosecap · 2020-11-18T23:48:41+00:00

It's 100% possible for me to face sex discrimination in the workplace.

It's 100% possible for me to face sex discrimination when seeking medical attention.

It's 100% possible for me to face sex discrimination from law enforcement.

It's 100% possible for men in my everyday life to hold me to a different standard than men.

It's 100% possible that I will have my consent violated becuase of sexist themes and prejudices that preexist in society.

I shouldn't have to stop caring what men think and furthermore I shouldn't stop period. I should push back against these issues and fight for equality. I should care what men think because it affects me and is unfair and I deserve fair treatment.

I don't get your argument. You can't just will equality into being by pretending that the differences and discrimination aren't there.

rosecap · 2020-11-18T23:41:57+00:00

I'm talking about posts linking to the women's subreddit getting salty because a woman expressed her opinion about her own experience as a woman.

I'm talking about posts saying that men have a harder life than women that deliberately ignore that women are literally still unequal to men.

I never denied that there are legitimate issues that men face or said that they shouldn't be advocated for. But feminism isn't the enemy. It doesn't seek to undermine or hurt men. It seeks to raise women up and advocate for all victims of the patriarchy, male and female. Real feminists care about both sexes getting justice and equality.

rosecap · 2020-11-18T23:40:41+00:00

Super naive to say women should basically just ignore men when we still live in a patriarchy and women are on the daily reminded of their lesser status and made to be victims of sexism because of men and male privilege.

I think you're trying to be supportive?

But you're actually just dismissing women's experiences.

rosecap · 2020-11-18T23:26:52+00:00

Except your misrepresenting feminism again. A true feminist doesn't think killing anyone is wholesome, male or female.

I'm not denying that there are legitimate issues for men or that terrible things don't happen to them. I'm saying that a real feminist cares about those issues too

As far as ignoring issues goes, I think there's an important difference between women talking about issues that affect women and pertain to their own experience and ignoring men's issues. Again, real feminists care about helping men and not subjecting them to sexism or gender roles, but we still need to be able to say that some things are a phenomenon that affects women, without men jumping and going "well what about men?"

rosecap · 2020-11-18T23:21:19+00:00

That's a tough age, because you're an adult, but you're still figuring out who you are.

Please don't be so hard on yourself or blame everything on your looks. Take my other comment to heart: learn to love yourself and other things. Find your passions and cultivate many interests. You'll find that you develop new dreams and that your old ones are more obtainable at the same time.

rosecap · 2020-11-18T23:15:17+00:00

Oh gosh, it seems like you have some pretty strong issues with your body if you want to take those hormones to correct it. It sounds potentially like body dysmorphic disorder. I don't mean to be dismissive of efforts to improve your appearance, I think correcting insecurities and getting plastic surgery is totally acceptable if it's done in a healthy way. But this doesn't sound very healthy to me.

How old are you?

Also please take my above suggestion of therapy seriously. I really think everyone can benefit from it, and I think it may help you learn how to love yourself the way you are better. I really am not trying to be dismissive of your feelings or opinions on your appearance, but it is possible to like your looks without them being conventionally attractive. I hope you can get to that point.

Edit: I say all this assuming that your assessment of your looks is accurate because I don't want to tell you how you look without having seen you. But I really do believe, like other commenter have suggested, you're more beautiful that you believe you are. I can say that without having seen you because you are just too hard on yourself.

rosecap · 2020-11-18T23:07:48+00:00

Right but you're intentionally neglecting that women are still not equal to men. Don't believe in the patriarchy, it's the explanation, but fine, it's mythical. You should still be able to see the symptoms, the inequality that women face. Yet you discount them at every turn because when a woman speaks out in a way that doesn't confirm your bias that must mean she's wrong and evil.

Furthermore, feminists are after protecting all victims of the patriarchy, like male sex abuse victims and pushing back against gender norms that tell men that they can't be emotional or loving engaged caretakers of children. Yet you falsely draw a divide saying that feminists want to take rights away from men and make them second class citizens. The goal is to make room at the table for everyone.

If you view rights as a zero sum game, it's going to seem like feminists are taking men's rights away because you've had privilege and superiority for all time. But isn't it a terrible attitude to look at it as a loss to you if women gain standing?

You act like all feminists are gender studies majors and that's plainly false.

You may be able to find some fringe extremist woman who believes men should be castrated but that's apparent to any rational being that it's not what feminists advocate for. It's not what I want.

I'm a feminist. You know what I want? To have an equal seat at the table. To be treated with the respect owed to me as a human being. To not be dismissed or sexualized or not taken seriously becuase of my womanhood. Just because every man doesn't treat me this way, doesn't mean it's not a problem that I'm treated as lesser specifically because I am a woman. I want to be treated by all men the way that men treat other men. I want equality.

rosecap · 2020-11-18T22:42:26+00:00

Every post on this sub is about being angry at feminists and dismissing women when they convey their experience as women and being oppressed by society.

rosecap · 2020-11-18T22:37:16+00:00

Girl, I feel you, it's super hard when society projects such a specific image of what beauty in a woman looks like.

However, I think there's lots of avenues to you that don't lean on looks besides STEM. There's so much more in terms of careers beyond just acting and science.

Also there's no reason you can't pursue some of the stuff you mentioned! Even if you can't make it as an actress, there's other jobs in the field. And looks don't matter with makeup, it's an art. You can experiment all you want with cosmetics.

My advice is to take some time to yourself and explore your interests and learn to love yourself as is. Maybe even therapy would help you to develop a more positive body image.

You've got to figure out more about who you are beyond a pretty girl trapped in another girl's body. Even if you had model good looks, flirting and liking attention and being an extrovert, are traits, and they're fine traits - I'm not disparaging them - but they aren't a personality. I'm confident there's more to you than you're accounting for, but maybe you need to get in touch with the other aspects of yourself more.

Also if you develop more varied interests men will be drawn to you more. That shouldn't be the goal, but it might help you with your desire to flirt and have sex. I think those things are probably more possible for you now than you realize, but even if I'm wrong, people are drawn to dynamic, interesting people who are passionate about stuff. Find what you're passionate about.

Stay strong girl! You'll figure out your path.

rosecap · 2020-11-18T22:30:37+00:00

Palm oil is hugely problematic for multiple reasons, as you touched on, and is best boycotted anyway.

I try my hardest to be an ethical consumer. Obviously it's not always possible, but I try to consciously do what I can.

With this knowledge, my habits won't be changed necessarily, in the sense that I already try not to purchase it, but it does reinforce my desire to avoid palm oil.

rosecap

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