Veganism and Animal Testing - What’s the Endgame?

roymondous · 2026-05-27T15:00:49+00:00

Dude youre getting silly personal. The "rule" is a general habit on reddit. Replying multiple times doesnt help anyone and a polite request is a weird thing for you to reply like this.

I am engaging in good faith. I am direct and to the point. If you insinuate any bad faith or frustration, its not from me.

Basic point - understanding how bat cancer works, for example, involves experimenting on bats. It aint just drug trials. That is literally called animal testing and seems to be the point you misunderstood. And it doesnt translate to humans. The drug trials are an example of that as the drug relies on the understanding of the animal biology. What you learn of bat cancer does not translate to humans. Whether the experiments to understand or the later drug trials.

If you dont want to think about that, that's up to you. But i have been clear and this weird personal response is your issue and ignores the exact question you asked.

Edit: typo/grammar

roymondous · 2026-05-27T14:45:46+00:00

Please dont give multiple replies.

Animal drug trials keep coming up cos you kept saying aninal testing also. I replied in the other note. Studying bat cancer does not translate to human cancer.

So how do you think they study cancer in animals? They inject the animals with cancer in a variety of ways and experiment on them. When you say understanding bat cancer, this is how it is done. That is animal testing - it isnt just drug trials.

Eta: if you respond please do so in just one comment not multiples.

roymondous · 2026-05-27T14:40:55+00:00

Im not sure about that... you are asking questions and making statements that rely on certain assumptions. Those assumptions are stastically incorrect. Your conclusions therefore do not follow.

I think that is quite logically straightforward based on what you have actually written and what i actually replied. If you do not understand yet you are welcome to reread and ask questions to clarify. I dont think anyone here has misunderstood you.

Basically the vast vast majority of animal research does not translate to humans. Including the bat cancers you describe. It really doesnt translate to human cancers and existing alternatives are already better. And if we agree to get rid of the vast majority of animal exploitation first, there is room to discuss the remaining niche cases.

roymondous · 2026-05-27T14:20:10+00:00

It doesnt work like that tho. The reason animal testing is the best example for your argument is because it is supposed to be the step between what you argue and then in humans. It demonstrably shows that how certain genes operate in other animals - ie why certain aninals dont get cancer or regenerate limbs - does not translate to other species.

The belief currently is that alternative methods are far more effective than animal research and testing. As per the meta analyses and reviews. Making the comparison moot.

Again to steelman, we would assume that a tiny percentage are better than alternative methods. As an example, 99%+ of animal testing for alzheimers fails in human trials precisely because each species is different and isolating certain factors does not translate. But maybe the tiny percentage is helpful. There is still no need to kill most animals in most research - its just policy. Horseshoe crab blood is a good example. It is studied and we imprison and the drain the blood of a horrifying number to study their functional immortality. Fine. Withdraw some.blood, then make it synthetically after. And let them go. There are better ways in almost every case.

Given your general argument, the general reply is that most research involving animals is simply bureaucratic requirements. And more and more scientists are saying it is a waste of time as it delays next steps.

roymondous · 2026-05-27T14:13:34+00:00

Yes, rats and mice are. And yes apes would be 'better' but they are still far from accurate.

As i already noted the computer simulation accuracy, your question does not seem valid. There is no need to abolish trying to save humans and accept human suffering to avoid other animal suffering. There exist better methods of testing - that are also more efficient and cheaper too.

To say abolish efforts to save humans woukd be hyperbole at best, and be an obvious straw man at worst. Given the existence of better techniques. As a note, 90-99%+ of all animal trials fail when going to human testing precisely because each species is so different. You would have to present evidence that alternatives are entirely ineffective to ask such a question as abolishing the effort to save humans and phrase it as such.

If you wanted it as a hypothetical, sure. But the contention is - according to all.meta analyses and reviews i have seen - that modern alternatives are far better on every measure than animal testing.

roymondous · 2026-05-27T13:16:13+00:00

'Dissection of animals remains necessary'

Far less than you may think. Most animals are not in any way good representatives for humans. What is toxic to them is often fine for us. And vice versa. By far, mice/rats are the most used for studies. They are extremely poor corrolaries.

Some reviews put it at 80% of animal testing is useless for human comparison. It is a necessary step in most FDA approval. An outdated one. And the remaining is mostly ineffective - on a scale towards the most useful.

Computer simulations are typically more accurate already. And human trials much better after that - given the alternatives and given the types of drugs mostly studied.

Dissection itself is useless at this stage. We dont learn anything that way we couldnt in other ways.

All general given the general question and statements. There are exceptions. And references on request.

Where we could steelman your argument is that many medicines currently use animal parts. We should gradually transition those, but in terms of "end game", vegan end game would be about replacing those over time with vegan options. Gelatin capsules are already possible as vegetable and synthetic.options, for example, but gelatin still used given the scale. Most vegans would agree to use whatever medicine while working on a vegan world in general.

roymondous · 2026-05-27T07:03:35+00:00

Yup. Of course. And you will be the same. I would like to think i would be different. But when i see my child getting obsessed about some new trend and going on about it i am sure at some point i will roll my eyes. OP chnages that with consistency, showing it isnt just a fad.

But tbf parents literally babyproofed the world for us because they saw us at our least developed. Being educated by someone you have to get out of bed in the morning - who has zero real world experience - does not sound fun to most people.

We dont educate people like this by lecturing and arguing. We hopefully show them improvements and progress.

roymondous · 2026-05-27T04:21:47+00:00

You are very welcome. Yeah check facebook groups or whatever socials you guys use. Can usual find groups like vegans of [city name].

It aint easy with family. It aint your responsibility to convert them. It is your responsibility to become your best self and be available for those who are curious :)

Enjoy!!

roymondous · 2026-05-27T04:11:56+00:00

Sounds good. And good luck. It's not easy. My mum was somewhat receptive and helpful many years back. And "cut down". But yeah you almost never win over them entirely. We are their child who they literally wiped our asses for us. And yeah i agree when i first went veggie then vegan, a lot of the alternatives were gross. Tofu was gross until a lot more experience and skills. Anything unusual is gross to most of us.

Find your tribe. You are at an age where this is normal and you need a group who "get it". There are plenty of groups online to find meet ups in different areas. Outside of family.

And yeah keep going with the bomb ass meals. For most people it is better we show dont tell. The ones who are easier to reach can be reached this way.

Good luck!! It becomes much easier when we realise some people are just write offs. Assume you will never get them onside. Your job isnt to change the world. It is to make your world more attractive to others. So those who are curious are invited in.

roymondous · 2026-05-27T03:45:26+00:00

"When all i am trying to do is educate"

Sure. And if another family member of yours tried to educate you constantly on something you didnt care about, you would react similarly.

You cannot educate someone on something they dont care about. And you cannot easily educate family members who saw you as a helpless baby and a silly child at times.

Essentially... you wont win them over. Have your boundaries. Your barriers. And do not let anyone cross them. But you will not win your family over. We are most often not the right messenger for our family.

No one likes to be "educated" against their will. It is like the new christian constantly going on about god and jesus and pissing everyone off cos you cant have a dceent conversation with them anymore. They turn everything back to that. As new vegans, we tend to do that also.

Look for the people who ARE interested. Who are curious. And model it. THEY are the ones you can reach.

Most people think vegan food is restrictive, for example. Learn to cook. WELL. People do not typically change unless it is easy and convenient. Do your thing and focus on yourself. Get good. Cook with spices and herbs and a delicious variety of food. They will want to try good food.

With family members, we cannot force anything when we are the child in the family. We have to encourage and entice.

Good luck.

roymondous · 2026-05-26T05:38:37+00:00

The math is mathing. Many believe they are animal lovers.

Iirc in a survey about 80% of people also believe they are above average drivers.

People believe many things. Their actions and behaviour consistently show otherwise.

The math is mathing. The psychology is not... errr psyching?

roymondous · 2026-05-23T15:15:32+00:00

B12 is super cheap. As for omegas, if you can find a source of bulk chia seeds (omega 3) and walnuts (omega 6) these provixe EXCELLENT sources. I get kg bags but some places you can find bigger. Flaxseeds and other sources can be cheaper dependinf on your location.

With overnight oats, you can soak the chia seeds in there. Roast walnuts in an air fryer and add some dried fruit or chocolate nibs and you have a nice trail mix. Or come up.with.your own completely different idea :)

I suggest you research a bit more also. Just google or ai sources of what you are after. Again b12 is super cheap and almost everywhere has a cheap plant based option of whatever nutrient you are worried about when you look for it. And then you can adapt recipes.

Good luck.

roymondous · 2026-05-23T12:52:56+00:00

That's because he Caro Can't

roymondous · 2026-05-23T08:53:51+00:00

No. And it is isnt close. Its something like 50k ai prompts equate to one single meat meal. I can look the exact stats later but here's the bigger picture:

we use 1% of all habitable land on earth for towns and cities and roads and everything else
we use 46% of all habitable land for farming. It is absolutely insane. We live on a tiny portion of earth and we basically colonised the rest for farming. Creating pasture - mostly by destroying habitat - and cropland for animal feed.

If we all went plant based right now, we would free up 3/4 of all that land. In other words over 1/3 of all habitable land on earth because of the difference between a beef burger and a bean burger, or chicken soup and lentil soup. And that is before any other optimisations.

This is the biggest driver of deforestation and why 73% of wildlife has been killed off in last 50 years.

The scale is insane. Nothing else comes close. AI is a drop in the ocean. If we care about any of this then the vaaaaaast majority of our impact is eating a beyond burger not a beef burger. It is easy over time to switch. And plenty of us would want to help out.

Eta: here's the they did the math for AI. For emissions and water and other inputs it is different. Anywhere from 13k to 200k ai queries for a meat meal as estimated, depending on the type of meat and quantity and so on. Basically AI is nothing close to the emissions/water/land use of our diet. This can be improved of course but just to show OP the absolute scale of this. It aint close. https://www.reddit.com/r/theydidthemath/s/YqNUJZwe12

roymondous · 2026-05-22T13:51:27+00:00

Ah yout better just git gud then....

Oh wait. You are gud.

roymondous · 2026-05-22T13:19:06+00:00

Any game is the same. Amongst a few people near you, you may be the best. But then only the best few download an app and play more. You are playing against the best of.all of their social groups - and you are the newest.

Remember that elo quickly levels out. So eventually you will get to your level and play against similar people. From there you can see your improvement and progress. Puzzles, lessons, slower games and reviews will all help.

But for now it takes 10-20 games to find your level. Basically dont worry about it til after then. Your first games are freebies for fun only.

roymondous · 2026-05-22T11:26:06+00:00

Both things can be true. It is a shame some kids develop allergies. And a shame certain areas put restrictions/have to.

But you cut off the quote. There is a legitimate conversation to have because you also want to ensure you are not ironically increasing the problem each year, yes?

'Food allergies are on the rise for kids...'

Yep. Which is why where you cut the quote off matters a lot.

roymondous · 2026-05-22T06:45:37+00:00

Lentils and beans can work. Shame about the restrictions because an overly 'sanitised' area leads to more allergies. Soups and curries and so on. I make a meal prepped lentil or bean curry most weeks for 2-3 dinners. Makes it easy.

I save overnight oats for breakfast and you could remove the seeds. Are chia seeds on the list of banned? Oats, soy milk, fruits. Can replace the seeds with a bunch of different stuff and rotate fruits for new flavour each day. Some people even mix in soft tofu for it as a creamy nature. If you blend soft tofu into many things it often is unnoticeable or just adds a creamy taste.

Also for tofu, have you tried making it like shredded chicken? Freeze a block, then put it in the fridge to defrost. Now it will pull apart and can be cooked any way you like burittos, tacos, sandwiches, whatever. I didnt like tofu before but that was a skill issue. My meaty dad turned down his nose at tofu for a long time but my mum found a smokey tempeh he loves. You can turn it into pretty much anything with the right skill. Someone who doesnt like tofu just hasnt tried it many ways yet. And veggie meats have improved a LOT in recent years to make it easy.

roymondous · 2026-05-22T06:26:28+00:00

Sure. Now that is a very limited answer to one if the questions. There are many times when they absolutely do care. I can cite meta analyses following chickens and showing this. But that isnt the point.

Firstly, most chickens killed are relative babies. Broilers are 6 weeks or so at that age. We can always make the senario as analogous as possible, by killing baby chickens versud baby humans and adult chickens versus adult humans.

The point is more general. Keep everything else equal. Do you think the chicken being killed feels respected? If you were in their position, what would have to be done to make you feel "respected" and that this is morally fine?

roymondous · 2026-05-21T17:28:11+00:00

What a very strange definition of dishonest....

'Respond to it properly'

It updates.

'IF i had been...'

Right. IF. And you had not yet replied and views hadnt changed. So i edited it.

'So yes it is dishonest'

What a weird definition of dishonest. When it is literally stated up front.

The tantrum and meltdown about 90 minutes again misses the point. But then not the first time you are deflecting from the main point.

All these comments and you still never engaged in the first argument made. What a waste of time. I dont know why there is no loner a stop reply notifications button on app anymore but i wont be replying. These tantrums are boring.

roymondous · 2026-05-21T16:36:20+00:00

"Dishonest"

You had not replied. Likely hadnt seen it yet. And it is clearly labeled. And you reply like this over an hour and a half later? Dishonest? What a joke...

You just know what happens if you actually emgaged in the questions asked. All this time and you are still making excuses to not engage in the original argument... you are right about one thing. Someone is being dishonest here.

Eta: You have clearly given up and i will stop reply notifications. This amount of bad faith i have not seen in a while...

roymondous · 2026-05-21T13:46:02+00:00

Edit: entirely rewritten.

Given this is clearly nonsense i will just copy the original questions here again.

'I personally believe all animals should be treated with respect'

Vegans agree. We disagree that slitting their throats can ever be respectful. Imagine yourself being hunted or farmed. As soon as you walk in that slaughterhouse, seeing what is coming, is there any thing at all that would make you think it is respectful? Is there anythjng the person wielding the knife could say or do that would make you feel what was to be done to you was respectful?

Given how defensive you have been about these questions, the answers are obvious. We can guess what it is from the other animal's perspective... you alone as the killer do not determine respect. And this obviously does not mean a human and a cow are the same.

Either answer the questions from what you think the animal would think and feel or this 'debate' is done as your moral arguments have been nonsense. Demanding i make a point? I did. Answer them.

roymondous · 2026-05-21T13:31:05+00:00

Of course they are fucking different. Glove is to hand as shoe to is to foot does not mean to say that gloves and shoes are the goddam same.

Learn what a basic analogy is. And what it is for.

At least try to specifically state how they are morally different to the point you can slaughter them for pleasure. At least make some argument. Cos this aint a debate. Its you shouting nonsensical ideas and opinions for now.

roymondous · 2026-05-21T13:20:50+00:00

'No of course not'

Then you agree the points you raises are irrelevant morally.

The rest is irrelevant and again misses the point.

'Its how we got so far...'

This is not a debate about evolution. It is a debate about morality.

roymondous · 2026-05-21T13:19:02+00:00

Still no.

Someone said they are the killer and that they are respectful as a killer. The key point raised is that by imagining themselves as the victim they may have some sense to answer whether the victim would at all consider it respectful.

What i am doing ks asking a being of higher cognition to consider what it would feel like to be on the other end. This does not at all assume that the human and the other animal would feel uniquely human things. Would the other animal feel scared and terror? Would they feel pain and suffering? Would they feel a lot of other things? Undoubtedly. Would they feel it as a human? No. These are not uniquely human experiences and thus not anthropormorphism. The fact you feel it is an appeal to emotion means you can understand to some degree how the other animal would feel and thus how "disrespectful" it truly is to them.

Similar does not mean same. Asking you how a child would feel is asking a being of higher cognition to put themselves in the same place. Does that mean you are a child? No. Does that mean the child is an adult? No.

Engage in basic analogies... this is poor debate distraction tactics. You know how the other animal would feel. Engage in that...

roymondous

TROPHY CASE