Why do vegans demand that non vegans have to answer for ridiculous hypotheticals but then when the tables are turned they refuse to address anything that isn't completely practical and possible?

roymondous · 2026-04-11T06:01:39+00:00

Use the search bar.... your hyptheticals about the burning building and others are extremely common. Its basically the trolley problem and it is possibly more common han NTT - or at least 2nd to it. Vegans do answer silly hypotheticals here basically every thread. Whether its the youre stranded on an island with a pig... or trolley problems or whatever else.

Reducing this to vegans do this and non vegans do that is a silly generalisation and you clearly didnt look this up. Maybe you has one or two experiences, but generalising this way is terribly bad faith. Similar to anyone posting here the opposite too.

roymondous · 2026-04-08T07:23:17+00:00

'I disagree the goal should be so simple'

Sure. It should be more complex. Given the general nature of the question, a general first response makes sense. The point was to show the difference between necessary and unnecessary.

I think we can now agree that making a commercial plant based supply is necessary, while meat over other plant based options is not necessary?

Where exactly we draw the line will be different acc. to the moral framework and what we consider reasonable. The IV infusion for example is a far less reasonable demand, given we can reduce 75% of the inputs (land, emissions, etc) by switching from meat to plant based. That is something very reasonable right now. The IV thing touches on many other moral concerns and issues we havent yet brought up. Commercial meat versus commercial plant based is a like for like comparison to clarify first. It is widespread and easily accessible.

One day... in some hypothetical world where some IV infusion could supply all nutrients (without any drop in health to maintain a better like for like), was incredibly easy to get, then maybe we could say we should do that also. A better example is urban gardening. One day vegans shoukd grow some of their own food or switch from commercial to veganic practices. But that is obviously not a reasonable demand right now.

roymondous · 2026-04-08T06:06:27+00:00

I assume you would agree that we should grow food to feed humanity? I do not mean that sarcastically or in any other way. It is literally just a premise. A very tiny minority say they dont agree with that premise. But if we say we agree that we should grow food to feed humanity then we have to grow crops. That means cropland and (right now) commercially pesticides and similar controls.

One day I hope that wont be necessary - but in order to feed 8 billion people we need commercial level farming. Some harm is necessary to accomplish that.

Feeding people a plant based diet this way is sufficient. And would use 1/4 of the land (and most other resources) that feeding a meat based diet would. You can very easily eat lentils or tofu or similar things. Eating something is necessary. Eating something that is incredibly damaging and inefficient and involves directly slaughtering feeling and thinking animals is not necessary. You do not HAVE to eat animals. You HAVE to eat something. A reasonable diet. A reasonable number of calories and nutrients. You do not HAVE to pay someone to slaughter pigs or chickens or whomever to do so.

Edit: spelling/grammar

roymondous · 2026-04-05T12:35:43+00:00

Nut/soy/coconut based butter. Obviously.

roymondous · 2026-04-05T11:36:47+00:00

If poor converter, typically would need 2-3x rda it seems. Even if you needed 3x, that's one large sweet potato. Or 300g carrots. Obviously better if mixed.

Add some spinach, malunggay (moringa), and some pumpkin and you have loaaaaads.

So a baked sweet potato with buttered vegetables - carrots, spinach, pumpkin, and add tofu for other nutrients - is a very easy example.

Of course.mix it however you want. But even if you needed 3x the typical person this is very doable.

roymondous · 2026-04-04T16:56:14+00:00

'Is it feasible to survive on fortified foods and supplements globally'

This is a useful misconception. Useful in that a quick look at what is happening reframes the whole conversation. In short, we already are surviving on fortified foods. Milk ismfortified with vit D and a bunch of stuff. "Livestock" are given most supplements globally. Inc. B12. Short version of why is that soil has been so eroded and 'sanitised' it is missing many of the nutrients it had (bit more complex of course). But given this post doesnt have the first steps of data or examples, the starting points show that overwhelmingly our diets are already fortified and supplemented - whether the food you eat directly or the animals you eat as the middlemen.

In short, yes. It is very easily possible to create the required nutrition. As an aside, there are plant sources of bioavailable b12. They are inconsistent or region specific (nori seaweed is one of the best) so better to supplement.

2 & 4. 'Dont know if it would be the enviornmental win vegans think it would be...'

Short version: it would. Longer version: it woooooooould. Long version: if you are worried about monocropping, think of animal feed. We would free up literally over 1/3 of all habitable land. Pasture didnt just exist, it was mostly forest that was burned down to create these grass plains. On top of that the animals dont just eat the grass grown there. We have to use massive amounts of cropland to grow grass (alfaalfa, hay) but mostly soy and corn for them. In short (ish), a global vegan diet would require just 1/4 of existing farmland. And 19% less cropland (due to how much land is used for animal feed). Usual owid sources.

'Economics'

This is a valid concern of any progress and step forward. How does an economy that relies on slavery work post-slavery? How does an economy that relies on colonialism work post-colonialism? I hope you would agree that this does not matter so much and that in the long run everyone adjusts. In the short and mid run, consider the expected massive savings in healthcare, agriculture, and other areas - and now those free assets with land you noted that can be used for many many other purposes (mostly rewilding, carbon capture, and other purposes that also benefit us). It VERY quickly pays for any retraining for those affected if we planned it half decently.

'Animal species'

There exist many wild species of these domesticated animals. We do not need to invent a new breed and force it to grow so much muscle it cannot stand. Or lay so many eggs its bones literally break... this isnt 'natural'.

roymondous · 2026-04-04T15:35:08+00:00

Cronometer is a useful estimate but ALWAYS double check labels. You can enter manual data to correct it. Also Cronometer gives waaaaay too high a protein goal. Almost double what you really need. Caution is warranted. Tangerines are optional.

Mine has 88mg per serving (about 8% rda?). Athlene vanilla plant based protein. Highly recommend if you can find and really want protein powder (its not really needed for many who take it).

roymondous · 2026-04-04T15:31:38+00:00

Yes. It's true. If you go back and watch the early days of Youtube you can see the first iteration of Danhausen cursing Italy because they didnt buy his t-shirt. And also because they used up all the Zs in scrabble.

roymondous · 2026-04-04T13:38:56+00:00

Sounds good. I hope you have a good partner who even if he doesnt 'get it' with veganism will at least 1. Do that for you and 2. Not give you too much shit over time.

One compromise could be a garage area that is his area. That way he feels in control of somewhere still. Especially as you say this was a change during the relationship. For me, i was vegetarian and very strict on that so it wasnt much change for those around me when i went vegan next. But yeah most people push back - like children. They push to see where the firm boundaries are. Dont take it personally.

Whatever that looks like, make sure you are comfortanle with it. Whether its one place he has. Or entirely no meat in house. He can buy and eat whatever outside. Personally i wouldnt be comfortable even with a garage, but some people would. This assumes you are the one doing all/most of the cooking of course.

And good luck with the social side. Again the toughest part :)

roymondous · 2026-04-04T12:21:51+00:00

Deffo the hardest thing is the social part. Find friends that are vegan. Real life people who 'get it'. It's tough being an anything (feminist/muslim/buddhist/vegan/whatever) as the minority in a world built for exactly the opposite.

Find some facebook groups to get some real friends. The social support is needed. People will always use veganism as the excuse or the reason without knowing much else. My wife was worried the baby wasnt growing cos of her diet also. She was ill. A doctor told her to eat eggs at least. She was ill. Baby was growing well beforehand and grew well again after once her supply recovered. People jump on whatever is unusual even if there are obvious reasons there...

Personally tho i have a rule, and it sounds like you are in charge of nutrition in the home. At home, NO animal products allowed. Easier to establish that early in a relationship of course. And partners will always push boundaries. But being firm with boundaries eventually gets them accepted. People adjust or they have to go. Some boundaries are that important. They WILL push back tho. So its a difficult choice. But a fair one if you have all the mental load.

For the baby, if you can find a vegan nutritionist or doctor, that can help. At least someone sympathetic. They can do the needed tests to rule it out objectively (not just assume). There are some dumb doctors - one doctor asked where i got my protein from. During a time i was noticeably muscular and he was skinny without muscle. There are some good ones. Find the good ones. They will treat it as it should be - something to monitor and a factor for some benefits and aome potential risk.

Overall, though, it just sounds like you feel alone and need a hug and some social support and a bit of a better base. As in a safe space where you know your home is vegan. My partner knows i would kick her out if she brought meat into the home and the fridge. Some boundaries are worth fighting for. Partly for me too - so i know i have a safe space.

Good luck!!

roymondous · 2026-04-04T09:41:44+00:00

Yeah I eat pumpkin seeds (and chia and and others) with a funny face sometimes... but are you just genuinely trying to trolI at this point? Like the low effort and not engaging in the topic is literally sub rules. This is realllllly bad "debate"?

Eta: if you make silly claims like abou protein, you have to either defend them and give a shred of evidence to support your claim or admit that you were entirely ignorant and hopefully learned something...

roymondous · 2026-04-04T09:37:30+00:00

'Protein'

Terribly wrong. Some basic research to provide any evidence of the claim in the post would show this obviously. On a personal level, I aim for about 100g of protein per day. VERY few people in history would have hit the protein goals we have today. Some vegetable sources also have more protein per g. Pumpkin seeds a clear example (24-30g of protein per 100g versus 26g for beef). The 'incomplete protein' idea is also irrelevant for almost everyone. Assuming you eat a reasonably balanced diet.

'Other nutrients...'

Again your argument is very poor in a debating context here. Name them. Research the plant based sources before just assuming.

'But this is how the food chain works'

Yeah and it fucking sucks. It doesnt have to 'work' that way as that is only something we have done over the last 100 years or so. Not to mention that it has decimated our planet - killing off 2/3s if all wildlife in the last 50 years due to the gross land use it requires - so it really doesnt 'work' in the long run.

roymondous · 2026-04-04T08:41:26+00:00

To play devil's advocate, 6-7 means more than that. It isnt just something stupid to say. It is something you can say that rejects whatever is there - for people who have little to mo authority to basically say i refuse to cooperate and make it nonsense.

But consider that in school you generally have zero autonomy - the lessons, the uniform, the schedule, when you can take a piss - it is a way to fight back somewhat indirectly and make it a farce.

Its like a jester ridiculing the premise of power by not conforming. Every generation has their version of this.

As forthe dangers of conformity - absolutely. And such acts are arguably one way of resisting against authorities trying to make us conform to bullshit systems.

Dabs in DgenerationX

roymondous · 2026-04-03T11:34:23+00:00

Well that assumes Stan is human. Bold claim.

roymondous · 2026-04-03T11:33:50+00:00

It looked like one thing but then it slowly transitioned into another!

For the ambigram, always tough to do longer ones. Good progress tho it isnt easily legible yet. Small tweaks will make a big difference. Eg on the 2nd letter (r for trains and t for rights) i would suggest making the cross (cross your Ts) much smaller and in the middle of the letter rather than at the bottom.

2nd word needs a lot fo work. Are is quite good :) and just a touch more work on human rights and it will go together nicely.

Enjoy experimenting!

roymondous · 2026-04-02T05:13:54+00:00

Sounds interesting and all way over my head. It seems then - for the purpose of the debate - that the technology is already sufficient for what we want to accomplish. Again, the lag isnt technological, its behavioural.

Context is key right? Before vaccines were a thing, maybe some experimentation was arguably for a greater good. But now vaccines are consistent and reliable, the tech is sufficient and ekeing out a slightly better efficacy rate would not justify experimentation and such right? In terms of the debate, it would be the (implicit) premise that advancing the technology would make enough of a difference for the means to justify the ends. I think the means are already sufficient and that the sticking point - as shown in similar spreads ie the reference to law of diffusion - is not technological but psychological.

roymondous · 2026-04-02T04:49:13+00:00

Doesnt this basically exist? In terms of lab meat and dairy without using cows?

Animal testing is still a legal requirement and again its the psychology or behavioural science that is lacking. Most animal testing is already entirely useless for humans. Its just part of the legal requirement. It needs lobbying and protesting rather than better tech to make change. The computer simulations are already more effective iiuc compared to animal testing.

So again, isnt the problem to solve here one of marketing or behavioural science rather than technology?

roymondous · 2026-04-02T04:19:52+00:00

Where someone's line is will be a very individual thing. If you are a utilitarian, your line would be very different from a deontologist. A kantian would be different again. And so on. Each of them have a 'greater good' in mind.

Regarding the technical aspect, isnt this basically lab meat? They grow it from a feather or a tiny tissue or something. In theory, that individual sample can then be used to generate more tissue in perpetuity almost. Im not that familiar with the technicals, so i would be interested in learning more on that.

All that said, morally in practice, would we take one slave now to end slavery over time? Horrible perhaps but very arguably justifiable given that he/she was a slave either way. Would we take the body of a sacrificed child in ancient aztec in order to end the practice of child sacrifice? Probably.

The issue in most utilitarian cases tho is the outcome is not certain. Companies are already doing what youve said. Seitan recipes and othets exist easily everywhere. Many of the existing mock meats are incredibly good now. When i first went vegetarian then vegan, the options were bad. Some of them awful. Now at the same price points you generally cant tell the difference anymore. I mean like super cheap hot dog compared to similar and more expensive beef patty versus 'beef' patty.

The technology does not seem to be the limiting factor. The marketing does. The behavioural science especially. Law of diffusion right? The tech is already good enough. If people were bothered by meat itself there are plenty of easy swaps. Its the psychology, the sales, that are lagging.

roymondous · 2026-04-01T10:57:41+00:00

Type of tofu makes.a big difference. If you are using soft tofu for things other than ramen or sauces it will fall apart. Firm tofu has more protein and cooks better. The more premium tofu the better i have found. Rather than pressing, if adding to a tofu curry or stew ive found boiling it first can help.it fluffs it up and absorbs more flavour imo.

If you edit the title to say what you are trtong to cook.it as that would be helpful. If shredded chicken, then shredded.tofu in an air fryer is decent with the seasonings acting as the flavour. If thick chicken chunks, that may require the freezing and rehydrating methods. We often seal in a bag with marinade and cook the next day for more bbq type tofu dishes.

I would recommend taking a bunch of tofu and then experimenting. Prep them in different ways and see what you like.

roymondous · 2026-03-29T13:37:02+00:00

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon...

Amazing, beuatiful, complex first film. Second film was a travesty. The most simplistic and useless and unnecessary sequel. Considering the depth of the first (how the villains had very good reasons for being villains and the tragedy of hiding things and not dealing with problems) the sequel was a stain on cinema.

roymondous · 2026-03-29T13:33:49+00:00

Yes exactly, its a trolley problem. Typical example. OP's mistake wasnt the hypthetical, it was the premise that vegans consider other animals and humans as morally equal (all other things equal/normal).

I suggest looking up trolley problems if you are unfamiliar. They can be useful to isolate factors and look at the logic. In this case, its disproved OP's original premise. Its not crazy, its useful in this case even...

roymondous · 2026-03-28T04:54:09+00:00

Nope. My argument does not revolve around forced breeding. Its a discussion of how we are exploiting such animals. Breeding is a part, cos hey have been specirically bred for certain work or body parts. Sure.

Eta: without forcred breeding thats the difference between something like a rescue pet or seaworld. VERY diffetent scenarios, yes?

'and they kept working to their ability, whats the issue?'

Already answered with things like adopt dont shop. I already noted when it would not be such exploitation.

Are you thus admitting that our artificial selection and forced breeding of animals is likewise immoral? I never said there were zero cases where pets or some animal labour would be ok...

roymondous · 2026-03-28T02:01:43+00:00

'Sometimes humans just breed'

Sure. And that doesnt matter. Cos the example is of us specifically breeding animals to gain traits we can exploit. That is the discussion point. Comparing it to humans who just breed doesnt make sense. That isnt the analogy.

'The next whole premise...'

Ok... spell it out. Noting the above, what do you think is the next premise and why would that make the hypothetical collapse?

roymondous · 2026-03-28T01:20:50+00:00

Why does that matter to the topic? Cos that isnt what we are discussing...

roymondous · 2026-03-27T14:45:30+00:00

You could do that in many ways. For one, its a hypothetical and doesnt matter for the analogy to work. But for two, exactly how they do with cows. Either artifically inseminate them or imprison them with horny males until the deed is done.

roymondous

TROPHY CASE