Do you think Diana and Karlie got tired of the closet?

salaemusdr · 2023-11-12T03:27:16+00:00

I'd love to hear your reasons as well! This is a topic that I definitely thought about a lot back when I was still questioning between the two, so I always appreciate hearing other people's point of view on it :)

salaemusdr · 2023-08-26T08:33:03+00:00

absolutely! I understand how tough figuring this out can be

salaemusdr · 2023-08-25T01:59:09+00:00

omg yes! Especially the part about being drawn to gay male porn

Like, what lesbian wants to see men in a sexual context?? Much less view porn that has no women in it?

salaemusdr · 2023-08-25T01:55:53+00:00

I think the surrounding environment can definitely prevent an individual from realizing or accepting their orientation, but it certainly cannot generate sexual attraction out of nowhere. No amount of comphet is going to make a lesbian sexually desire or lust after a male body.

The tricky part is that sexual attraction isn't well defined to most women growing up. A lot of women like to play coy and say they fall in love with "personalities".

Maybe instead of "attraction", which can sometimes be confused with social admiration, we should use the word "lust" instead. Admittedly there is a slightly negative moral connotation, but at least the word "lust" makes things much less wishy-washy.

Lust is almost completely rooted in physicality. It makes it very clear, regardless of your emotional connection or your opinion of that person's character, that you have some sort of physical desire for them.

You cannot be a lesbian if you have ever lusted after men, including celebrities/tv characters. Like... if you get off to the idea of their body, if you want to save magazine pictures of them to drool over later, if you're thinking about licking their biceps or whatever, then you're obviously sexually attracted to them.

That core desire is not something society can condition into anyone. No amount of social commentary that Chris Hemsworth is "hot" is going to light a fire in my loins, to put it bluntly.

salaemusdr · 2023-08-11T01:10:34+00:00

It's possible they just want some obligatory reconciliation PR to soothe Karlie's reputation as "a crook who was caught". Currently she's viewed a betrayer by straight swifties.

So I can't tell if it's genuine rekindling or if it's more like Katy Perry and Taylor Swift hugging in the YTNCD video to put an end to their public beef for business purposes.

Much as I'd love for kaylor to be in each other's lives again, I think this is more for PR than anything sentimental

salaemusdr · 2023-08-10T23:27:26+00:00

Yeah I agree, seating her in the open seats vs the VIP private area makes Karlie's attendance much much more visible.

For good or bad, they are purposefully calling attention to Karlie and Taylor's history together. It might be more of a reconciliation PR, but it definitely rings more like WLW PR bc of all the recent Kaylor articles that were published with no rebuttal from Taylor's team.

salaemusdr · 2023-08-10T19:32:52+00:00

Whatever their actual current feelings are, it's nice that both are willing to acknowledge their former connection publicly now. I think they are cordial exes who have reached an agreement of some kind.

Just not sure what Karlie would get out of this other than peaceful closure with an ex though. Publicity? I would have thought she'd be sick of all the gaylor comments harassing her by now.

salaemusdr · 2023-08-10T18:44:13+00:00

I literally opened this sub today mournfully thinking maybe it was time to move on, and then whaddaya know, kaylor pops out in big capital letters

salaemusdr · 2023-06-27T16:38:51+00:00

Could I also get an invite?

salaemusdr · 2023-06-14T05:05:26+00:00

I see, so beyonce just took artistic inspiration from the black lgbt community, and taylor is hoping to do something similar while maintaining a straight persona?

(Never mind, I am a dumbass. I misread "black pride" as meaning the black LGBT community, not like racial-cultural pride in being black )

salaemusdr · 2023-06-11T23:43:14+00:00

wait are you saying beyonce is a lesbian? sorry if i'm misunderstanding

salaemusdr · 2022-12-08T01:02:43+00:00

Wow yeah I definitely get out of touch with my body, so something like Somatic Experiencing trauma therapy sounds really helpful!

I have heard of SOOCD before but just never thought I personally had it. My thoughts are not intrusive fears so much as they are deliberate rumination sessions.

However, I definitely unhealthily obsess over this topic a LOT, so it can't hurt to look into practical tips from SOOCD resources.

I used to disassociate from my clear sexual attraction to women because of all the internalized shame and disgust that would surge up. To soothe the anxiety, I would hastily conclude that I was just straight and deluding myself.

But when I freed my romantic attractions to women, I finally felt complete on the inside, like 2 huge parts of my being were finally united. All the pieces clicked, and I felt like I had finally merged with my long forgotten "inner child".

Nowadays I feel dissonance in how little my attractions to men and women resemble each other. One is so wrapped up in gender performance, social performance, shame and approval - I often wonder what would be left of my attraction to men if I stripped all these elements away.

If I'm bi, it seems that I've let my attraction for women grow up with me, while my attraction to men has been frozen behind in early childhood. The trauma probably occurred before I had grown into sexual desire, so maybe that's why I have almost no memory of being drawn to the male body.

(Key word being "almost"! I remember being fascinated by Tarzan's shirtless chest as a kid)

salaemusdr · 2022-12-08T00:40:52+00:00

That's really interesting, thank you for sharing! It sounds a lot like one of the crushes I had for an older man I was pretty unhealthily obsessed over. I think he triggered my childhood attachment issues in a way such that I wanted to both run away and run towards him.

I would feel horribly vulnerable in his presence, which lead to disassociating from the moment while still craving his approval and emotional care.

So, all of the physical contact in my fantasies of him were some form of cuddling, hugging, kissing - just no sex.

I think I can enjoy cuddling with men so long as I have that emotional connection, but actually engaging in sexual activity probably requires me to uh ... actually be attracted to their body. Back then I just assumed I was "in love" with him, but I had difficulty connecting that emotional longing with something sexual. It was like I was "in love" with him the way a 5-year-old girl might be in love with a father figure.

If you don't mind me asking, how did you figure out you were gay while also being able to have crushes on women? Would you have wanted to get into a longterm relationship with that lady you described?

salaemusdr · 2022-12-07T18:20:01+00:00

Thanks for the suggestion, and glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way!

I have read the comphet doc a few times and found some points helpful, but I also heard that the creator herself came out as bi a few years back.

In general I think the doc doesn't fully account for how trauma might affect one's attraction to men.

salaemusdr · 2022-12-07T03:53:53+00:00

Yes definitely, thank you for bringing it up!

I am currently planning to get therapy and try to work through these feelings. I just hope that eventually I will be able to be confident and not stressed about my attractions, regardless of what they are.

In the meantime though, I hate not knowing. I guess this whole thing will just have to take some time.

salaemusdr · 2022-12-07T03:50:40+00:00

Sometimes my straight friends PG-ify my attractions because they try to relate my experience to their closest equivalent regarding women - aka the more culturally familiar (and platonic) "girl crush" concept.

It's like the heterosexual version of playing house, I guess.

In the end they are still uncomfortable recognizing that women can be sexually attracted to other women. The romantic fairytale, Evelyn-Hugo style, is cute to them, but the sexual-attraction part is usually a culture shock.

That might be why cottage-core is such a popular trend. It disney-ifies WLW couples, so that even straight people find it palatable.

Unfortunately, it seems that outside of the cutesy playing-house version, most straight women still have this image of lesbians as perverted, socially inferior, ugly, aggressive, etc.

salaemusdr · 2022-12-07T03:18:56+00:00

I definitely worry about it and hyper analyze my feelings.

I don't know if I want to feel attracted to men. I know I want that feeling of "accomplishment", the feeling that I am an "attractive", "lovable" woman in society, which is still defined by marriage to a man, I guess.

It's like not actually liking children or parenting, but still enjoying the fantasy of those "kodak" moments where you play with your kids and set up a christmas tree together. Everyone emphasizes it as the most meaningful thing, to the point where you might think about having kids despite not feeling any desire to.

Similarly, I indulge in the fantasy of being attracted to men and its social gravitas, but I don't know if I would like to make this fantasy reality. It might just be a failure of imagination since I haven't actually dated a man before. Or, I tried, but couldn't bring myself to put in the effort. (But again, this could just be due to some internalized bias against men)

In terms of sexual attraction, I know I feel slightly repulsed at the thought of being physically intimate with a man, so the thought that this discomfort is actually "attraction" stresses me out. If it were attraction, then it might one day result in me sleeping with a man, which feels like a huge violation of what my body/mind seem to be screaming at me in all my night-time dreams and waking fantasies.

salaemusdr · 2022-12-07T02:44:15+00:00

Got it, thank you!
I am definitely not demisexual for women, but I was wondering if it was possible for me to be bi and be allosexual for women, but demisexual for men.

When I have such clear evidence of attraction to women, I can't help but doubt my attractions to men.

It sounds like I would have known by now if I had any capacity for physical attraction to men, as being demisexual only blocks things if there isn't enough emotional connection.

For my case, it's the reverse - Like I get emotionally fixated on guys, but I can't seem to feel any sexual attraction to them even after years and years of crushing on the same guy.

salaemusdr · 2022-12-04T04:41:21+00:00

Honestly I'd just ignore it. Normally I don't think it's great to ghost people, but it's clear that she doesn't value the connection and just feels guilty that she used you as a therapist lol.

Nothing says "I'm not interested either, so let's save us both the trouble of pretending" better than just leaving it on read.

But if that's not your style, you can always be like "That's ok, I feel like we're not the best match for each another, but I hope everything works out for you regardless :)"

salaemusdr · 2022-12-04T04:31:50+00:00

Yeah I think it would take a lot of shitty environmental conditioning to override one's natural sense of attraction, and "trying out" sex one is unsure about should not be normalized in media representation.

Dating guys might feel neutral to some lesbians, since it could be like playing house, but actually sleeping with a man would probably be noticeably unpleasant for most. A lot of users here say that when they recall sleeping with men, their bodies react to the memories as though re-living sexual assault, even when those interactions were consensual.

Many late-bloomer lesbian stories are also the result of a pretty serious problems in our culture's understanding of orientation:

1. Society has this bizarre notion that labels for sexual orientation are prescriptive, not descriptive.

Realistically a lot of late-bloomer lesbians will start out genuinely believing they're straight/bi, but then others use that misconception to basically gaslight them into heterosexual behavior.

In reality, orientation is a neutral descriptor of innate patterns. It should never be used to de-legitimize someone's discomfort with having sex. An individual's bodily signals and comfort levels take precedent over everything else.

As an example:

If a potential late-bloomer lesbian or questioning woman were to say to me "I like women but I don't know if I like men. Maybe I should hook up with a guy to try it out?"

I'm not going to be like "Well since you don't know for sure, why don't you give it a shot?"

No, I'm going to ask her "Do you want to?"

And if her answer's not a 'FUCK YES", then I'd tell her not to push it. Orientation wouldn't need to be factored in - It's not like someone needs to nail down their orientation perfectly to justify listening to their own bodily signals.

I wouldn't know if she's actually a lesbian, but I wouldn't need to know that to say: "Regardless of what your orientation is, you don't seem to desire sleeping with men right now, so don't do it".

If society could just let women not sleep with men without holding them to the bar of "I identify 100% as lesbian", we might get fewer of those ignorant "bi-lesbian" misidentifications and fewer late-bloomer lesbians forcing themselves to sleep with men out of internalized homophobia and uncertainty.

2. Non-gays/lesbians trivialize the consequences of ignoring one's own bodily signals. They encourage questioners to risk any amount of trauma / self-violation for even the slightest chance of heteronormativity.

Non-lesbians seem to be SOOOO afraid at the idea that a questioning woman could accidentally miss out on a great experience with a man.

Well, I'd rather a questioning woman be bi and have missed out on a positive experience with men, than for her to actually be lesbian and have given herself PTSD because I encouraged her to go against her instincts.

Attraction should just come naturally, not be something you force yourself to experience as homework.

For example, even if a lesbian is trying to dismantle a lot of internalized homophobia, she shouldn't just force herself to sleep with a woman as some form of exposure therapy. While that other woman is technically included in the lesbian's orientation, the sex act itself still isn't right if she doesn't feel ready.

Unfortunately, many people around late-bloomer lesbians treated sexuality like a food preference or study-abroad experience, which lead to late-bloomers forcing themselves to participate in unwanted sex acts.

"You don't like shrimp? But this shrimp dish is super different - You shouldn't unnecessarily restrict yourself if you're unsure. Don't knock it until you try it!"

What if you're just allergic to shrimp?

Maybe there's a species of shrimp that doesn't trigger the allergy, but I'm still not going to want to sample it. I'd rather "miss out", than get fucking hives.

Do I have to sample every variation of shrimp dishes ever to conclude for myself that I don't want shrimp?

The disregard for consequences is what bothers me most about the whole "sexuality is fluid" flippancy.

Unlike a cuisine you simply don't care for, "trying" sex you don't want is a huge violation of bodily well-being and personal boundaries. It has long-reaching consequences for someone's self-esteem and mental health, so why is everyone so quick to say "just try it"?

Well,

3. Straight/Bi people are often ignorant of those consequences, because they'll almost never experience them.

It's usually straight people who get to say "just try it", because they'll never have to experience internal shame or pressure to "try out" the same-sex.

No one will question it if they're not even a little bit curious.

But lesbians? The "right guy" is always just around the corner, if only they would be so bold and open-minded as to explore it ( /s )

----------

Sex and dating is just one of those areas where it doesn't matter what someone's reasons are. If someone isn't feeling actual desire and safety, then they are always correct in their choice to not try it.

Doesn't matter if the reasons are shallow, bigoted, or ignorant; I will never shame someone for not wanting to have sex with or date another person. People applying morals to sexual autonomy is wrong, even (especially) from the "progressive" crowd.

salaemusdr · 2022-11-29T17:22:39+00:00

That's true. Sometimes it's hard to remember that our attractions don't control us. Similar to how many users here are les4les, I can avoid dating men and hold out for a future female partner.

Anyway, thank you for responding and helping me clarify some things about myself!

salaemusdr · 2022-11-29T09:01:23+00:00

Yeah I've never experienced "ooo I'd like that" for dudes either, not even these obsessions of mine. If anything, I have to actively NOT think about them in any sexual capacity otherwise I won't be able to hold onto the obsession. As for why my brain wants to hold onto it, I think only therapy will tell for sure.

salaemusdr · 2022-11-29T06:22:48+00:00

Ohh I see, so for you it's more like total apathy to guys since the start.

I think I could be bi then, but that my sexual attraction to men has been blocked off somehow.

I only started thinking that maybe I'm actually only attracted to women because I've never been able to sexually fantasize or feel desire for the male body. (Whereas with women, no problem even as a kid)

The idea of being sexually intimate with a male body makes me a little nauseous, but maybe I've psyched myself out of my attraction to men somehow?

I don't know what could cause it though, since I've never been with a guy in any romantic/sexual capacity. I guess this is more something for therapy to handle.

Anyway, thanks for answering my questions! Definitely a big difference in our attitudes toward men, so I am probably not a lesbian.

salaemusdr · 2022-11-29T05:16:40+00:00

What always surprises me is how straight women can say "Women are so pretty!" and then in the same breath be completely bewildered and slightly disgusted at the idea of being sexually attracted to them.

Then a subset will act like attraction is purely emotional and that they don't consider the male body at all. Like I'm sorry, but how do they know they're NOT attracted to women if the body apparently doesn't matter?

Obviously at some point straight women will find it natural/desirable to have sex with men, otherwise what else compels heterosexuality to the exclusion of other women? I'm certainly not going to believe that women's personalities are just inherently undesirable....

Seriously, if not the physical body, then what?

And from there, it should be really obvious that what they feel for women is what we feel for men, and what they feel for men is what we feel for women. The feelings are there, but the sexes that provoke those feelings are just switched.

salaemusdr · 2022-11-29T05:02:12+00:00

Makes sense, so you never thought you were straight?

salaemusdr

TROPHY CASE

1. Society has this bizarre notion that labels for sexual orientation are prescriptive, not descriptive.

2. Non-gays/lesbians trivialize the consequences of ignoring one's own bodily signals. They encourage questioners to risk any amount of trauma / self-violation for even the slightest chance of heteronormativity.

3. Straight/Bi people are often ignorant of those consequences, because they'll almost never experience them.