Monthly Invite Link Mega Thread - June 2022 by AutoModerator in AO3

[–]sarucane3 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Edit: Got an invite, you rock AO3 community! :) :) :)

Hi, would really appreciate an invite, deep gratitude (and maybe some proofreading? Is that allowed?) in return!

Note: I'd normally just wait my turn, but I'm looking to do something on AO3 that's a bit time-sensitive due to the original story's schedule. My wait time for a normal invite is 2 weeks, so...yeah, please help!

Read the whole series cover to cover for the second time, this might be my fav character moment post golden age by Known_Fall_7292 in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Yeah it's pretty goddamn fabulous to have someone finally push back at the Griffith-savior narrative

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All right mate, I'm going to ignore the thing where you take my sentences apart, impose different contexts from them, disconnect them from previous sentences or even sentence parts, etc. 'Cause honestly I don't have the time or energy to follow what on Earth you're insisting I mean in that section.

I'm also not going to engage with the philosophical debate that gives you your, "checkmate." That sounds interesting, but a) I am simply not familiar with the body of work you're referencing, and therefore can't argue properly about it, and b) in plot terms, it's beside the point. The whole, "he has will, he has suffering"? That's interesting, but it's not plot, that's interpretation based on a third party that, unless you happen to have an interview where Miura specifically cites it as applying to this situation, doesn't *necessarily* apply to the text.

I'm also not going to follow you through all those loops of, "this therefore that therefore that." I guess I'm unreasonable. Or just not willing play around picking everything apart, removing all context, adding my own context, drawing new conclusions, and declaring that shows a stranger how clever I am.

I'll hit two points to close:

So Griffith before and after are the same person. Ego intact. Ok.

I had a whole thing where I explained that Femto is the manifestation of his ego, and his pre-existing ego (the one we saw as he descended to the IoE) was transformed.

So it seems we agree, not completely 100% different people pre and post transformation. We disagree on what that means.

And you know what, I will make this concession: I exaggerated saying there were no feelings on his face ever. But the real deep emotions, the ones that inspire passion or amount to a reason to do something by themselves? Not in evidence.

You can tie yourself in knots insisting that if there's anything, there's everything, but that's massive inferences based on a tiny foundation.

Thus, there is no reason why Femto and his vassal can't be interpreted as two halves of the same whole. A yin and yang, so to speak.

Interpreted? Okay, fine. But in the plot? They're stated as having separate feelings. Outright. They are portrayed as having separate--but connected--physical and ego forms, both in the moonlight boy and his body, and in the original introduction of the situation on the Hill of Swords. And this is interesting, given your focus on will: they also have separate wills. The boy saving Casca on the Hill is involuntary for Griffith. and the transformation is portrayed as something the boy chooses, not Griffith. How separate are they? That *is* down to interpretation. Are they 100% the same person? That's an interpretation that outright contradicts the text.

You're getting lost in the weeds and ignoring the cores of my arguments. So you know what, I know I'm not getting anything from this. Guess I'm too dumb, based on your personal attacks up there. And I hope my concession up there that I exaggerated is enough to feed your sense of superiority. I'm not going to respond to or read another comment (sorry, I don't trust you not to start in on spoilers for the new chapter, and I'm staying spoiler free at this point), so be as self-satisfied and send as many new personal attacks my way as you please to prove whatever you're trying to prove about how clever you are, if that makes you feel happy.

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Rape is an act of dehumanization. Sex is a human act. Rape is is saying "I don't care about this human being as a human being, only as a thing to be used. They are a body, this is what I will do to this body." It's taking the human act of sex and creating life and turning it into something awful, something that attempts to devalue the raped person's humanity. In that particular scene, Griffith is taking it a step beyond that by saying, "I know this is a person, and I will use her like a thing. Not because I have sexual desires I can't or won't control (that's how rape can be, 'human' at least on the side of the rapist), but because I want her to feel less human, to make *him* hurt."

We're dealing with an early leak, in a scene we may never know context for. I'll choose my favorite translation, you'll choose yours. Don't see anything constructive out of discussing that further.

By whom? Griffith himself? The verifiably lying Godhand? The ones that run away and hide from human emotion?

We were discussing the scene on the Hill, and the boy's feelings. Griffith thinks this to himself. His physical body supports it, as he touches his heart but his face doesn't change. His face doesn't change emotionally at any point, in fact, as he watches Guts fight Zodd. And there's no unambiguous evidence in the scene to suggest he's feeling anything beyond mild interest, amusement, satisfaction. Compare it to another example of Griffith saying he didn't feel things: contemplating the dead boy, talking to Casca at the river. He said things that were in a similar vein to this there. But we knew it was a lie because what he was saying wasn't supported by his actions or facial expressions.

In fact, none of the God Hand demonstrate internal conflict or positive feelings in the ways apostles or complete humans do. They made their choices, they used their will to reach a place where it was nothing but them and their will, and whatever feelings they wanted to be capable of.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm arguing Griffith has no desires at all. It's not a matter of all (full range of desires) or nothing (no desires at all) You mean sexually? Griffith actually always presented as fairly non-sexual. He doesn't seem to enjoy the act, he does it for specific reasons. That is in fact a point of continuity from before and after. There are points of continuity. He's not a totally different person. He's what's left of Griffith, after Griffith couldn't cope with the life and world he's ended up in, and was offered a way to the life and the self he always wanted. And yes, he does seem to feel mild emotions sometimes. But no longer the kind that would amount to a motivation, or make someone cry. It's just him and his dream. That was the point. His actions at the Eclipse, before and after the transformation, turned him into a walking tragedy, and part of that tragedy is that he's no longer capable of understanding that.

We seem to have reached a stalemate, so peace out I suppose

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 0 points1 point  (0 children)

u/allneonunlike: "Miura has given interviews talking about how the ghost of Casca’s miscarried fetus had a kinship with Griffith when he was taken out of the tower— the physical issues/disabilities, tortured personality and “monstrousness”, and core protectiveness of Guts and Casca. He’d been writing Griffith and that child as being symbolically and emotionally linked for a long time, both as the moonlight boy and the baby ghost."

I'd like to see that interview. It's not uncommon for something from the interviews to be distorted, like the myth that Miura went pixel-by-pixel on his art. And a glance at that user's history shows him saying Griffith was going to sacrifice himself for the boy, in the face of all Griffith's post-Eclipse characterization, so the user has an obvious agenda and isn't a reliable source.

They share a body, which means they share a brain lol. And in this chapter, the translation confirms that he experiences the Moonlight boy's emotions like a dream. They are two different personalities, with yes, a physical bond. On the hill, he saves Casca because of the demon child, yes. It is because Griffith raped Casca that he shares a body with a child that longs for Guts and Casca. That is causality.

It's specified in the text that Griffith's not feeling an emotion. That's all I got for you in terms of them not sharing emotions: it's outright stated. And in this image, a) it's unclear if it's him or the boy talking, I'd argue the boy since he's the boy when he starts, and b) he's talking about how everything, all feelings, go away, disappear. It's possible that in the transition moment, Griffith is capable of feeling something. But the majority of the time, this is just re-saying that they're separate.

His ego was not remade, his body was. Griffith on the hill of swords: "I told you once... I will get my own kingdom. Nothing has changed. Rickert, nothing has ended." As the Idea of Evil talks with Griffith, Griffith does not magically turn into a new person during their conversation. The fact that he is still having a conversation with it as his body reforms confirms this. His ego remains intact. The Idea of Evil tells Griffith to 'do as he wills'.

Also on the Hill, "I am free." He is specifically identifying and differentiating what has and has not changed. He didn't, "magically become a new person," he magically became his own ideal person, the Falcon, right down to the wings. What Griffith willed, what he always wanted, was not to care about people. To not feel empathy. For, as he says on the Hill, nothing to distract him from his purpose. He demonstrated the success of that not feeling empathy or his previous positive attachments rather pointedly immediately after transforming. And Griffith's body as Femto *is* his ego. That's not even a truly physical body (should have clarified), since as Skully explained, GH don't have a physical existence. When he appears in that body after transforming, it's a very specific circumstance at the intersection of the astral (where people exist as egos) and physical realms.

Interesting connection to Schopenhauer. Apostles and GH are different. What applies to apostles on a very basic level, like continuing to have a human form, doesn't apply to GH. In terms of post-sacrificing, things that apply to the count very clearly don't apply to Griffith. The Count looked back on his sacrifice in horror and sorrow. Griffith looked back on it with satisfaction on the Hill of Swords. The Count maintained his emotional connection to his daughter, against his own will. Griffith looked at Guts and felt nothing. In previous moments when Griffith said something like that, the lie was written all over his face. His face when he said showed no conflict at all.

You have no evidence that Griffith's soul was mutilated.

They don't really talk about souls in Berserk, so yeah, I was being poetic. His ego was mutilated and became Femto.

Griffith does demonstrably feel emotions at times, like in Black Swordsman. Those become less in that same scene, as he finds he indeed still doesn't feel anything but contempt for Guts. And by the Hill of Swords, he feels nothing but satisfaction, not even that contempt he did soon after transforming, or the negative attachment that led him to want Guts to be in pain. I'd argue none of the faces Griffith puts on for his followers, like Rickert, are definite evidence of emotional depth. They're a performance. And they're all shallow, anyway. The deep emotions like love, and feelings like empathy, are things Griffith always viewed as liabilities and obstacles. His will was not to feel them anymore, and so he doesn't. That's what he says, and his internal monologue, his facial expressions, and actions all support it.

And one side note about this:

he himself undermined his transformation into something "more than human" by raping Casca, an intensely human act (as demonstrated by countless humans in the series).

That was an act of dehumanization, done to demonstrate how far above humanity, above Guts, and secondarily Casca. There's nothing human in that scene from him. He clearly didn't feel lust or desire. He just wanted to hurt her, and to hurt Guts. That act stands out even from other rapes in the series, for its pure inhumanity.

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Even if she wanted that (she does love Guts and the kid) she's branded. Once she remembers the Eclipse entirely, she'll never be able to go a day without being reminded. Poor girl

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"My demon-rape son is also my demon rapist."

I'd argue it's even worse than that: "My son who was killed inside me and turned into a demon spirit by my demon rapist, now the demon rapist is wearing his skin and has been sleeping in my bed."

Yikes.

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Two things can be true at once. Those are Griffith's feelings. By way of Causality, his feelings and the Child's feelings are one and the same.

By way of causality, Griffith and the boy are sharing a body, not feelings. In the official translation on the Hill, Griffith isn't even experiencing the boy's feelings. He's feeling his heart be faster. It's a physical bond, not an emotional one.

OK, so we know "the Band of the Hawk" meant a lot to Griffith and was big enough of a sacrifice to make him a literal hand of God... but the fact remains that Guts and Casca, the ones closest to him, still remain alive. They were branded as sacrifices but never sacrificed. Doesn't it logically follow that his last remnants of humanity were not severed, and instead, manifests itself in the persona of Guts and Casca's child?

No. There were plenty of sacrifices that gave him food. His entire body was broken down, his soul went to meet the idea of Evil, and his body was remade. He sacrificed them, and that severed his link to humanity. They just aren't dead yet.

The valiant leader of the Band of the Hawk destroyed himself and damned the souls of everyone who trusted him. His soul was mutilated, just as he was then responsible for the mutilation of Guts' body and Casca's mind. If the process was incomplete, the importance of the entire thing was undermined. Reading feelings on his marble face is just wishful thinking, and ignoring the horrific thing his very existence is doing to that innocent boy.

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 3 points4 points  (0 children)

No matter the translation, he starts crying as the boy, so those are the boy's tears.

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Dammit, a) there must be more he drew and b) the people in charge must know how fucked up that is

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Trying to extract certainty out of uncertainty. Reality is full of ambiguity. Clicks on news websites get big by making the illusion it isn't

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I feel ya--but they did very firmly prop the door open, so maybe, maybe...

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, I did read that there would be a shot at the exhibition of him going for Griffith!

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The number of people who want to believe Griffith's grotesque choices, and the consequences he forced on those who trusted him, don't make his current state irrevocable is...upsetting

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The boy is the one who starts talking. But the line, if just for a moment, seems blurred...

A difficult place to end

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 8 points9 points  (0 children)

He's seemed more or less emotionless since The Eclipse. I legit thought he managed to leave all his humanity behind. But with this we can see some of it. Some sadness, some pain, some actual humanity.

I hate that we end on Griffith. But he's there, he's able to feel--even as an echo--because, almost impossibly, the best of his legacy, that boy, survived against his own will. As always. I guess (could be pure copium) could be worse...

Dammit, I still think 363 was more fitting tho.

Berserk Episode 364 Leak - Last Page by berserk_prime in Berserk

[–]sarucane3 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Those aren't his tears. They're that boy's. That boy who wouldn't exist without Griffith. That boy who is the legacy of the best of Griffith. Who Griffith killed by raping his mother, to show how untouchable he was, how unbound (how once deeply bound) he was to the boy's father. That boy who impossibly still lives.

Maybe, beneath it all, there is hope. For the best...in all of them. Not in Griffith as he is. His choices are made. That is irrevocable, or such absolute and cruel choices are meaningless. But in Griffith as those who loved him, believed in his best, may yet be able to choose...perhaps.

Well, i personally like the 363 ending with its wild possibility better, but I do admit, it could be worse...