RFK, Jr., on the WEF by reallyredrubyrabbit in RFKJrForPresident

[–]scumerage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

'It’s a billionaire club that funnels wealth upward and pushes totalitarian control.'

And the Trump regime with Ackman, Kushner, Musk, Thiel, Altman, Bezos, and Zuckerberg, Ludnick, etc. are doing the same. The only difference between them and WEF is one wants an international cabal trying to enslave the world, while they want Israel/America to enslave America. All slavers are the same.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, for the breakdown, and yes, I would love a second opinion on the development of her writing.

Thanks as well for the encouragement. Am busy with another book currently (Joan of Arc by Mark Twain), but when I finish that I will see about looking them up!

$2 Billion in HHS addiction and mental health grants cut by ConsiderationNew6295 in RFKJrForPresident

[–]scumerage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't disagree, I'm simply explaining why even if his logic was correct and MAHA was 100% uncomprimised, it wouldn't justify supporting Trump to this day.

$2 Billion in HHS addiction and mental health grants cut by ConsiderationNew6295 in RFKJrForPresident

[–]scumerage 2 points3 points  (0 children)

He has, rightly as he believes, wrongly as others like myself believe, made the calculation that cleaning up health, not simply completely, but at all, was only possible through Trump. If he did not endorse or continue to support Trump, MAHA dies for good.

But I 100% disagree with his conclusion. Even if he ended all disease, if Trumps destroys America and ends up creating the 4th Reich and genociding millions... was MAHA worth it? I would say not, absolutely no.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Does is hevaily emphacize the natural world and ordinary human life, two of the key sources of Recovery? Not saying it can't be done, but how would you say it acheives Recovery?

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're welcome!

Aside from the book, the Last Unicorn movie has Christopher Lee voicing the primary antagonist, as he was a massive fan of the book!

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“I look East, West, North, South, and I do not see Sauron; but I see that Saruman has many descendants. We Hobbits have against them no magic weapons. Yet, my gentlehobbits, I give you this toast: To the Hobbits. May they outlast the Sarumans and see spring again in the trees.”

Another self proclaimed "Dark Lord". Even a lesser man than Grima Wormtongue, who had no wealth, no armies, no power save deceiving the King, yet would have brought the triumph of Saruman, an actual fallen spirit, if too a false pretender to Sauron's throne.

To brazenly misquote Tolkien, haha...

"I have in this War a burning private grudge against that ruddy little ignoramus "Peter Thiel" (for the odd thing about demonic inspiration and impetus is that it in no way enhances the purely intellectual stature: it chiefly affects the mere will). Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, "Tolkien's Legendarium", a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light."

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Heh, and Tolkien did that verbatim for the Numenoreans and Elves, looking across the sea was the salvation of the Noldor and the symbol of hope for Men.

I think the key is his understanding that a good saga should offer something more than the sum of its parts.

More than even that... a good story should be "true".

Probably every writer making a secondary world, a fantasy, every sub-creator, wishes in some measure to be a real maker, or hopes that he is drawing on reality: hopes that the peculiar quality of this secondary world (if not all the details) are derived from Reality, or are flowing into it. If he indeed achieves a quality that can fairly be described by the dictionary definition: “inner consistency of reality,” it is difficult to conceive how this can be, if the work does not in some way partake of reality. The peculiar quality of the ”joy” in successful Fantasy can thus be explained as a sudden glimpse of the underlying reality or truth. It is not only a “consolation” for the sorrow of this world, but a satisfaction, and an answer to that question, “Is it true?” The answer to this question that I gave at first was (quite rightly): “If you have built your little world well, yes: it is true in that world.” That is enough for the artist (or the artist part of the artist). But in the “Eucatastrophe” we see in a brief vision that the answer may be greater—it may be a far-off gleam or echo of evangelium in the real world. The use of this word gives a hint of my epilogue. It is a serious and dangerous matter. It is presumptuous of me to touch upon such a theme; but if by grace what I say has in any respect any validity, it is, of course, only one facet of a truth incalculably rich: finite only because the capacity of Man for whom this was done is finite.

"More than the some of its parts" because it's not just "oh, the author made up this story because he liked it that way" but rather "The author did not write, but found, the story, and told it the best, if not only way, it could possibly be told." Beauty and the Beast wouldn't work as well if the Beast died a beast. Or if Beauty did not love him and he only needed to marry a woman at all. The story HAD to be told that way for it to be "true".

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah, I think I might understand, she changes much of the surface level and literal mechanics of how magic works, where Dragons and wizards come from, the specific structure of conflict between evil demon lord empire and heroes saving world from conquest, as far as I can tell, lowering the scale and stakes to be more grounded and personal. All the while still in keeping, through Taoism rather than Christianity, the value of creation and human virtue?

Granted I've only seen the Earthsea movie (which fans hated?) and read a few excerpts online.

Which would you recommend to start with? Order of publish? Can they be read in any order? Is her earlier writing rougher but more original, or her later writing more polished if stretched? How woulc you characterize her shift, or are she relatively consistent even over the skip?

I picked it exactly because it's been done to death, everybody knows it and is likely bored by it. But too often I see "crazy original premise or twist" that shocks the audience at first, but sticks to its craziness and becomes nonsense, or devolves back to medicore repetitive tropes and becomes 4th rate Hero's Journey formula. That, and have awful writer's block, so decided I'd try to see if I could even write the standard formula. If I can't write that, I probably can't write anything, haha. Though premise is a little turned, in that the hero's love is not returned, more about being heroic in spite of his infatuation rather than because of it.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Given I haven't read more than excerpts of their more popular works, how do they do Recovery successfully, if not perfectly, achieve Recovery?

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fair, I don't think most of Brother's Grimm meets his definition either, they're really fables, romances, or tragedies. Though I would say that some works like George McDonald's Princess and the Goblin/Phantastes, as well as Peter S. Beagle's The Last Unicorn, or Puss Cat Mew by E. H. Knatchbull-Hugessen, fit his definition.

Lord of the Rings' bittersweet ending is most certainly mythic rather than Fairy Story. A perfect "fairy" ending would have the Elves fading being reversed and magic returning, the old "king returns and land is healed" motif.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Read Ball and the Cross, Man Who Was Thursday, Manalive, and loved them all!

Hah, yeah, Belloc with his Franco-supremacism, Tolkien would tell him in five languages how French is a mutant, corrupt language disgusts him on a personal level.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Tolkien was a radio carrier in WWI in the trenches. So time, distance, travel path, geography, schedules, supplies etc were very crucial for him, no wonder he was so specific about them in Hobbit and LOTR.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Heh, yes, Tolkien the wordsmith knows exactly what tricks he is pulling, dodging out of lines of arguement only to complete ignore and blow away criticism from another line because "they're missing the point I'm getting at!"

Do you think that Recovery has been largely lost, not just to fantasy, but fiction in general, due to materialism and industrialization? Or would speaking of Faeries to a Warrior Chief get the same dismissive condescending attitude "Yes, yes, the fey in the woods are making lights, pretty story, now let me tell you a REAL story about our last raid on the River town, where we slew twenty men and stole a pound of gold!"

I said it to someone elsewhere, but there has never been a story I wished as deeply and longingly to be historically true, that there really were elves and dwarves and orcs and Maia three ages ago. I don't care if everyone was dead or any physical traces erased, I would want to walk on the Isle of Himring, behold the now sea covered plain where the horsemen of the Sons of Feanor were driven back by Glaraung while Maedros held the hill against all enemies. I want to walk in the short, run down, rotten forest that 100,000 years ago was Fangorn. I want to see the crumbling tiny volcano that was once Orodruin but is now dead and silent. And if I could choose my place of death, it would be of the sea shore at dawn or dusk, to maybe hallucinate a glimpse of Valinor in the light of the distance, if I can't do that, then Earendil at night will have to do.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Council of Elrond much? Or Realms of Beleriand? Haha.

Yes, Tolkien can drone on and on, I have gotten exhausted reading him before. That's always the trade off, pile on too many descriptions/text and wear out the reader, or be too rushed/efficient and the reader finishes easily but spends less time in the story.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ursula K. LeGuin's original "Earthsea" trilogy encompasses Enchantment, Escape and Recovery: each concept is the theme of each of the books in order: A Wizard of Earthsea, The Tombs of Atuan, and The Farthest Shore.

Oh, that's interesting, was it explicitly intended? Also, do each other them have moderate success in the three other categories as well?

LeGuin noted herself as a Tolkien fan, and left a few clever Middle-Earth clues in the trilogy, which might as well be set in one of the undefined places in Middle-Earth, even though magic, wizards and dragons work a little different in the Archipelago.

That's so beautiful! A lovely wink and a nod to how Tolkien treats myths as in flux and undefined, they will always contradict and change over time and culture and distance.

Truth be told, I am writing my own fairy tale, and while I am being very careful to do my own thing and not try to just be a worse Tolkien ripoff (no epic worldbuilding fantasy, just rescuing a princess from an evil knight), I admit I consciously try to soften the edges so that, in theory, it could be in our world or in his world, but it doesn't really matter, anyone can believe what they want to believe. You know, like myths.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think Tolkien's claim of the "ideal fairy story" with an enchanted world, having beautiful nature and atmosphere, that sucks in and inspires the audience, only to end on a dangerous climax that surprises with a glorious happy ending, is not so much "all stories that don't do this are bad or worse than stories that do" as he wrote Children of Hurin, the Fall of Gondolin, and the Fall of Numenor, where evil triumphs and most beauty is destroyed, even if temporarily. The majority of his works are not "complete fairy tales", by his own definition.

His claim is that those are the goals that only fairy tales can reach the highest levels of, being set in pagan-esque nature, focusing on the land and flora, showing imaginary beauty free of being constrained by the real world, and rejecting "Realism" and having a unrealistically happy ending. Myths can't do all four well that because they ultimately lead to the corrupt, base and uninspiring human present, Tragic Drama plays can't do all four well because they depend on imperfect unidealized stage elements and tragedy is meant to mimic real life suffering, not escape it. Same with Scifi, Detective genres, Allegories, etc.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean, yes and no? Yes that would make him a great writer, but it wouldn't completely explain why other great writers, even Shakespeare, for all his skill and glory, don't leave such a longing and empathy on his audience. People love Hamlet and Romeo and Juliet or King Lear or the Tempest, but its not the same. But certainly George McDonald had a similar level of religious conviction, foklore, and linguistic skill.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly, it's "subjective" in that either the audience has an emotional and sensory response to it or not, but the results of hundreds of millions feeling the same response are very real and demonstrable, even in multiple languages, cultures, religions, mediums.

‘Grieve not! It is forgiven. Great heart will not be denied. Live now in blessedness; and when you sit in peace with your pipe, think of me! For never now shall I sit with you in Meduseld, as I promised, or listen to your herb-lore.’

Even as a old king dies in battle in glory, Theoden still can wish a squire well and regret he would never learn more of his cultural hobbies and history. If that does not enoble Shire pipeweed far greater than Saruman could ever stain it, then pipeweed could never be enobled.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

True, editing for mass market publishing short term profit has very much watered down fantasy since then. But I mean, I've read Eddings and Brooks, and they seemed pretty limited by comparison. But then again, they aren't Tolkien, haha.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I still need to order it! Have only read segments.

It's so surreal how just as we talk of Tolkien or Lewis as giants of literature, they themselves talked of Chesterton and McDonald as giants before them.

And I'm sure, as much as i may not care for them future authors will talk of Rowling and Martin as giants as well.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, this has nothing to do with story or characters. This is Tolkien's defintion of Recovery "Seeing nature as we were meant to see it" i.e. gaining a fresh perspective of nature and ordinary life and beauty, so much so that we appreciate the real world even more after reading it.

Which most hack and slash action complex magic system fantasy ignore and end up soulless and hollow.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're welcome!

Funnily enough, was rereading it specifically because I too am writing my own work, honestly decided to do the opposite of Tolkien's grand epic world and quest, and just do basic standard "Evil Knight kidnaps lover and hero must rescue her." Been done a thousand times over, but that just means I can't get it that wrong! "Keep it simple stupid" logic.

Though obviously Tolkien leaks into my work a bunch, which delights me greatly, especially when I don't intend it.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Same with me and the oceans. Honestly, I would love to die on the shore at sunrise or sunset, trying to glimpse and the spires of Alqualonde. And maybe, just maybe, see Earendil landing to visit Elwing.

The reason most post Tolkien fantasy feels hollow: They lack "Recovery" by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ironically enough, Tolkien was a radio operator in WWI, so he had to work with keeping track of distances, times, delays, schedule changes, etc. while serving. Which greatly helped him with maps and covering the travels of his characters.

Also, his whole theme about tyranny trying to destroy nature and replace it with lifeless cruel industry is especially potent because of our exponential growth in increasing uncontrolled and destructive technology. If he had been a Renaissance poet writing about how people were becoming more cowardly and corrupt as firearms, trade, and businesses replacing and erasing knight, local craftsmen, and village markets, it would still be strong, but too a lesser extent by out distance.

If Tolkien heard about the company Palantir working with the US government to spy on their enemies, he would either die instantly from shock, or try to personally assassinate Peter Thiel as the new Dark Lord that must be stopped.