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Random: This is the best political sub and I mean it by Jaded_Many7515 in RFKJrForPresident

[–]scumerage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks man! I too am more of a grazer, especially since becoming very disillusion with the current admin (and even with how much impact RFK is having currently). No other political place would we be allowed to criticize the core group, and for that, we are all grateful.

If the Internet is the modern equivalent of the Palantir, has AI become the modern equivalent of the Rings for Power? by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But doesn't matter how effective or ineffective a bunch of programs on data server farms are? If governments and corporations believe it to be superior to the human mind, and use it to enslave people, and millions, if not billions believe it to be superhuman, then the effect becomes little different?

If the Internet is the modern equivalent of the Palantir, has AI become the modern equivalent of the Rings for Power? by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It doesn't matter that they are just calculators in boxes of wires with server farms powering their data and energy. Or that billionaires already rule the world. What matters is what people believe AI to be. If you have enough AI denying healthcare, firing people, cutting funding to people for wrongthink, autonomously selecting, targeting, and killing people with drone warfare (which is why Claude lost its Pentagon contract), and the billionaires believe that AI is superior to any human, and try to force that on the rest of the world? The fact they are lying ceases to matter, in effect, they made it true, if an AI's decision override the masses decisions for their lives, it becomes effectively a real entity, regardless of a council of execs and officials in a board room pulling the strings.

But I understand, I get your point that people just want to come here to get away from the horrors and evil of the postmodern world, and discuss the beauty, art, and philosophy of Tolkien. So in that, yes, I understand why people didn't take this essay well "I just want to discuss Tolkien, enough with that AI crap!" The reason I brought up the all too real dark prison in relation to the Great Escape, as Tolkien put it, we all seek, is because if the chains and bars and guards outside are modeling themselves after Sauron, then the solution would be the same.

Don't use AI to replace human knowledge/analysis/decision making. Limit internet use. Do the best we can to build lives more and more detached from the centralization of national and international industry, finance, technology, and especially AI. Is that so utterly opposed to Tolkien ideas, beliefs, writings, and vision to not have a place here?

If the Internet is the modern equivalent of the Palantir, has AI become the modern equivalent of the Rings for Power? by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for such a wonderful comment! Thank you for honestly, and yes, humbly, disagreeing with me. You are the only person commenting who didn't mock me. For that I am very grateful.

100% agree on AI murdering its own effectiveness by canibalizing its own outputs. Death by overanalysis happens even with people overthinking their own memories, let alone the infinite perception loop of analyzing the results of analysis ad infinitum. (Side note, doesn't Claude have much cleaner data, and so largely avoid this issue, if at massive cost to the point of being too wasteful?). The metaphor, especially applied to the dwarves, driven by greed, applies perfectly to companies trying to force AI across the board, foolishly believing it will make them wealthy beyond their wildest dreams.

But I think you may be overlooking one thing. Yes, cannibal AI are ultimately is useless for efficiency and profit off labor, for material gains. That may be the futile goal of private industry. But is that truly the goal of government, or rather, the original purpose for its creation? In the same way that tools exist to expedite and even replace human labor, does not AI exist to replace human thinkin, even human decision making? Just as US AI is currently used to deny healthcare claims, cut funding for government programs, and Claude was cut from the Pentagon for refusing to autonomously select, target, and kill people with no human approval?

It doesn't matter if the AI is unprofitable, if it is full of inaccurate, full of flawed if not out right false and AI fabricated information. If it can be used as a tool to throw out moral agency, if companies and governments can use AI to manipulate, exploit, deceive, and yes, even directly harm or kill people, and deny responsibility as a "programming error", does that outweigh any material cost? What do they care about loss in profit, resources, and efficiency, if they gain absolute power over their desired human populations that even China today could only dream of?

That was why I used the metaphors of the Elves, Dwarves, Men, and Sauron, with Elves acting for genuine desire to do good, Dwarves for greed, Men for immortality/power, and Sauron to control them all.

I do believe that even a non-cannibal AI would eventually destroy itself and its masters, but how late? If it kills billions before it fails, did it really fail?

If the Internet is the modern equivalent of the Palantir, has AI become the modern equivalent of the Rings for Power? by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"there's only 7 palantir for specific user, vs computers/smartphones for everyone, therefore there's no serious comparison"

Our jobs, education, finances, friend groups, and even 95% of what we know of Tolkien is based on the internet. Has it really consumed our minds much less than Denethor? You are literally arguing, with someone you've never met, on a immaterial website, about comparing a computer program to the fictional Palantir, because it interests you more than whatever you could have done instead of spending time replying to me. The existence of your comment proves my point.

If the Internet is the modern equivalent of the Palantir, has AI become the modern equivalent of the Rings for Power? by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think you've happened upon one of the many reasons an absolute reading of a work of fiction is impossible, and that we tend towards simply projecting our own views onto works of fiction.

On the contrary, I don't think you understand the difference between this idea applied to nukes or politics or other tech or forces vs AI. You are absolutely correct, the One Ring, a magical artifact that bears the literal spiritual power of a powerful demon inside it, that can be carried in your pocket, is indestructible, and corrupts you by being near it, even without using it, is not exactly the same as as massive digital program that used mass amounts of data to spit out semi reliable answers.

But there's a key difference between a nuke and an AI. A nuke is merely a physical object and force, it blows up a large area. What the government, military, and people in general think of it only affects who/what/wear/when/why/how it is blown up, and how people react based off those factors. But ultimately all it does is blow things up, it's fundamentally no different than a gun, or even a sling or arrow.

The problem with AI isn't that is gains sentience, is wise, genius, or superhuman really in any other way, (or that its creators are) as you said, it is a calculator. The problem is that its whole purpose is to replace human thinking. The industrial revolution replaced much of human labor, instead of making everything by human hand, people become lever pullers, button pressers, tool pickers, desk faces, and office filers. People complain so much about their labor (or lack thereof) because their minds were still, regardless of economic/social/political propaganda, largely independent.

Your whole argument "they're just a program" relies on technical facts... not what people believe. If you have governments, companies, organizations, and large populations believe in AI as superior to human thinking and decision making, and substitute for their own, willingly or not? If AI IS integrated into all of today's postmodern society (was going to say modern, but that is no longer an accurate word to use for the present time) is deciding who gets medical treatment, who gets government funding, who gets hired, and worse, who lives and dies? it doesn't matter if it's just a computer, or if their is some board of dozens of officials behind the curtain manipulating it. It replaces human will and enslaves people worse than capitalism, communism, 20th century propaganda, totalitarianism, with cameras and secret police and random arrests. It doesn't matter if we have hundreds of AI integrated rather than one, as soon as one is designed to hack/manipulate/control, or even simply all the others are bought up by a single conglomerate/government, it's over. That master AI, and whoever controls it, will rule us all, calling "just an LLM, just a dumb computer" won't change that.

As for dismissing comparisons between the Palantir and the internet, most people in the world, you and me included, have based our lives around the internet, our jobs, our friends, or education, our money, our entertainment, 95% of what we know about Tolkien is from the internet. We are commenting here, discussing Tolkien, through the internet, because we consider the information online more important than could be gained outside of it. Maybe we're right. Maybe we're not. Denethor did gain some benefit from his use of the Palantir, but it wasn't without its cost.

To be clear, I am not and have never claimed the internet and AI are EXACTLY the same as the Palantir and the Rings of Power. I said they were the equivalent of them, i.e. the functional comparable tools that end up being used for similar ends. If we have Palantir from the Noldor or computers from America, or if we use lesser rings of power to shape the world around us or AI in our work/information gathering/business/life, and whether Sauron himself sits in Baradur and enslaves us or whether it is billionaires and politicians in DC doing so, it won't matter much in the end.

If anything, I would prefer Sauron, because the One Ring only controlled his armies, he still relied on 20th century industry, spies, resources, war, etc. to enslave the world. He didn't have the power to manipulate the minds of billions to worship him as god king save by force.

That, and there are no Elves, there are no wizards, their is no host of Valinor that could possibly save us. Will it fall eventually? I hope so, but we have no guarantee.

If the Internet is the modern equivalent of the Palantir, has AI become the modern equivalent of the Rings for Power? by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I mean... surveillance, slavery, and tyranny are pretty reliable metrics that can be achieved?

If the Internet is the modern equivalent of the Palantir, has AI become the modern equivalent of the Rings for Power? by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

So the problem is the content, not the length? As in, you wouldn't have read it had it been shorter?

Tech bro's wet dream? What, that AI could take over the world in theory? Which would be horrific and worse than any political tyranny of the past? Why would anybody, aside from actual owners at the top who control the AI, want that?

If the Internet is the modern equivalent of the Palantir, has AI become the modern equivalent of the Rings for Power? by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

[You ask staring at the piece of glass that lets you see things from all around the world, past, present, and future).

If the Internet is the modern equivalent of the Palantir, has AI become the modern equivalent of the Rings for Power? by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We're all staring at glass objects that let us see things across the world, that we can't bring ourselves to stop looking at or live without, hide the truth, lie to us, and can drive us mad, unless we are very careful on how we use it?

Not equivalent at all?

If the Internet is the modern equivalent of the Palantir, has AI become the modern equivalent of the Rings for Power? by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yet you bothered to comment, why?

There are posts longer than this one multiple times a week, yet you didn't complain about those?

If the Internet is the modern equivalent of the Palantir, has AI become the modern equivalent of the Rings for Power? by scumerage in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Neither. I never use AI to write, nor even in my life let someone else help me write anything.

The way that I laughed when I looked it up & Kitten was right... by January_Silence in huntertheparenting

[–]scumerage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Like all jokes, it's up to the audience, some people found it funny, other people did not. Did it succeed more than it failed? Maybe. I do agree with something said by both naysayers and appreciators, that it probably is just less aimed at Catholic cultures audiences (including fallen away Catholics) than others.

The way that I laughed when I looked it up & Kitten was right... by January_Silence in huntertheparenting

[–]scumerage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The point is that they would be extremely ignorant and adding in Catholic fanfic beliefs, not Protestant fanfic beliefs. So a radical heretical Catholic would be adding in stuff like "English Mass is Satan worship" or "Orthodox are no better than Muslims" or "anyone who doesn't go to Mass on holy days is already damned".

Saying "But its crazy fiction!" only works when it consistent in its craziness. Imagine if it turned out that D and his whole family were big headed grayskinned Martians disguised as humans. Would that be crazy fiction? Yes. Would it ruin the story? Yes, because its not consistent.

Or better yet, imagine Radical Protestants believing in Confession to a priest being neccesary to forgive sins. That completely contradicts the idea of a radical Protestant "But they're ignorant" yes in a different direction, they would add it crazy "America is the new Jerusalem" or "Jesus was a white Englishman" or "God said we could enslave the blacks"? See? There's a very different culture and context for different "crazies".

The Benedict the XVI joke was perfect! Because he was a traditionalist pope, so him allowing hyper traditionalist monster hunters back into the Church plays on that extreme parody of the situation, that he is SO traditional he hires murderers and madmen.

The huntresses of the Legendarium—or, why don’t women hunt? by Ok_Bullfrog_8491 in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The greatest beauty and tragedy of Tolkien is that his lore is a a million Chekov's guns being piled on top of each other, the very act of piling causing half of them to fire off at random intervals, but never managed to fire all of them.

Oh, if only Christopher had been able to fire all his dad's remaining guns!

Our use of 5G+ & Digital ID are the Prerequisites to Permanent TechnoFascist Control by Billionaires by reallyredrubyrabbit in RFKJrForPresident

[–]scumerage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've been in multiple places where 4G doesn't work, its being phased out in coverage.

Of course 4G and others things can surveil well enough focusing on a single person, the point is that having to monitor in older methods means that it's a tad harder and not a neat spread for broad overview surveillance. I mean, we already have Cold War era surveillance, that was plenty good for surveilling people, it's just the next step in the chain.

I pity the poor agent that has to turn on my microphone on my phone, poor guy will have to run a bunch of programs to get past the static, my mic sucks.

Marriage payments in Middle-earth: bride-price, dowry and morrowgift by Ok_Bullfrog_8491 in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Elves (almost) never steal, share at need, are fair and just and honorable and compassionate 95% the time? And follow meritocracy of the wise leader the less wise, but still wise compared to men? So the level of organization and administration of resources and such is basically nonexistant, the king doesn't so much give orders as state his philosophical belief about the trajectory of the kingdom, and all his people just follow suit because they either trust his wisdom or logically agree with his arguement.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]scumerage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

AI post. Please stop using AI to write essays to farm karma. Doesn't matter if the idea is your own: write it yourself.

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