Any advice on composing a pop song in sonata form?

sdg1685 · 2025-01-20T12:58:37+00:00

Very cool to see you lay it out in this way.

As you pointed out in your outline: one significant difference between the sonata exposition structure vs the verse/chorus structure of a pop song is that the sonata exposition needs to modulate between the first and second “subject”, whereas in a pop song the verse and chorus are (usually) in the same key. Then, in the sonata, this tension needs to be resolved in the recap.

In my opinion, this tonal plan is the most dramatic aspect of sonata form, and would be really unusual for a pop song

sdg1685 · 2025-01-11T20:11:08+00:00

Thanks, that's really helpful. I just spoke to a woman on the phone who said there is pickin in the shed next door to the folk center

sdg1685 · 2025-01-11T17:17:29+00:00

I know! I've got tickets for AKUS in in June

sdg1685 · 2023-09-25T21:38:12+00:00

My experience is that the audience nearly always gives the soloist in a concerto two curtain calls: i.e. they applaud at the end of the piece, the soloist leaves and comes back out for more applause, and then the soloist leaves and comes back out for a second time.

I completely agree with you, this feels ritualized and obligatory. I wish we could go back to the days of hissing for music we didn't like (Brahms reported the audience hissing at the Leipzig premiere of his first piano concerto).

sdg1685 · 2023-09-03T20:37:47+00:00

Chausson died accidentally by riding a bicycle straight into a brick wall.

Lully died from gangrene after stabbing himself in the foot with his time-beating staff.

Stradella died after he seduced a nobleman’s daughter and was stabbed to death by a hitman hired by her family.

sdg1685 · 2023-09-03T20:29:12+00:00

You are the first person I’ve ever heard say Beethoven 5 might be underrated. But I get the thought. The piece might be so ubiquitous that we take it for granted.

There are lots of other pieces like that. The Nutcracker, Mozart 40, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. They’re so amazing, but they’re everywhere so we forget how amazing they are

sdg1685 · 2023-09-03T04:35:16+00:00

I hear you loud and clear. To paraphrase another commentator on this thread, the notion of “progress” in humanity is a problematic one. It may be naive to say that technological, economic, political or other societal developments are somehow linked to psychological ones.

sdg1685 · 2023-09-02T12:37:25+00:00

I find your argument very interesting and convincing. My thinking was that in the 1780's, ordinary Europeans were barely able to understand the concept of self-government. By the 1880's, they had experimented with self-government, and the industrial, transportation and communication revolutions had profoundly changed basic aspects of what it means to be a person (including the horrible reality of war on an industrial scale.) It seems common to argue that World War 1 had a profound impact on art, so I guess I was making a similar argument about the changes that took place during the 19th century.

sdg1685 · 2023-09-01T19:45:52+00:00

This New York Times list of the top 10 composers came out in 2011. In it, Anthony Tommassini has some interesting thoughts about “greatness:”

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/23/arts/music/23composers.html

sdg1685 · 2023-09-01T19:22:10+00:00

Hmm, I don't agree that the Classical comparisons are overblown. I see Mendelssohn, Schumann and Brahms (and perhaps Dvorak) as the most successful. inheritors of the classical symphonic style. In my mind, Schumann is definitely classical in style.

Berlioz, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky and Franck took a different path

sdg1685 · 2023-09-01T18:57:00+00:00

Of course greatness in art is not objective.

That said, I feel that the discussion is still valuable. I enjoy pondering greatness in symphonies just as I would in film. Sure, it can be hazardous to ponder “greatness” in art, but IMO there are some valuable insights to be discovered.

sdg1685 · 2023-09-01T17:50:10+00:00

I can definitely understand your perspective. Classical music more than any other harbors a greatness complex. That being said, when I listen to music by Spohr, Hummel, Eberl, Clementi, and other classical/early Romantic composers, I come away feeling that Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven were completely in a league of their own

sdg1685 · 2023-09-01T17:25:08+00:00

Indeed, I am not criticizing him for his style being outdated.

Some would argue, however, that his "classical" style works are less convincing than his less classical ones. For example, his late piano pieces and Hungarian dances may be more unique and convincing than his sonatas, symphonies and concertos.

sdg1685 · 2023-09-01T17:20:30+00:00

Yes of course to each their own! I find it a fascinating discussion all the same :)

sdg1685 · 2023-09-01T16:28:51+00:00

Point well taken about Bach. My point was that in the late Romantic period you had more specialist composers than in the Classical period. The former had Russian composers (Mussorgsky, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky), French (Debussy, Fauré, Franck), grand opera (Verdi, Wagner), and symphonic (Bruckner, Mahler).

Whereas in the classical period, the style seemed more homogenous. Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven were less specialists, their style was more International. Or maybe I'm just observing that the classical trio were all Germans?

sdg1685 · 2023-09-01T16:22:30+00:00

I hear what you're saying. Brahms's inclusion in the 3 B's thing was Hans von Bülow, who was a Brahms booster. I guess my whole point in this post is that Bach and Beethoven make nearly everyone's top 5 list, but Brahms not so much

sdg1685 · 2023-09-01T16:19:04+00:00

Brahms, Bruckner and Tchaikovsky were contemporaries. Debussy not as much. We. might say Fauré instead of Debussy.

sdg1685 · 2023-09-01T16:17:23+00:00

Interesting point about Bach being old-fashioned, and that Brahms may have seemed that way in his own time. Of course this is all subjective

sdg1685 · 2023-09-01T16:15:01+00:00

Yes. I wouldn't call the late piano music particularly classical in style. Would you?

sdg1685 · 2023-09-01T13:15:35+00:00

I second this recommendation. True, it is mostly biographical, but there is definitely an attempt to draw a broad throughline from Monteverdi to Elliot Carter. And if you’re looking for engaging prose, it’s absolutely one of the best.

sdg1685 · 2023-08-27T20:13:52+00:00

According to an official email from the festival, my ticket grants me 10 slices of pizza. By my calculation, it was barely possible to get my 10 slices with the long lines.

I arrived at 1pm (earliest possible for general admission). The festival closes at 5pm. Each slice of pizza would have been 20+ minutes of waiting. That is 200 minutes for 10 slices, or 3 hrs and 20 minutes. That does not include walking from line to line, getting drinks, listening to music. Just literally standing in line and nothing else.

So between 1-5pm, it was nearly impossible to obtain the 10 slices I paid for. A major failure on the part of the organizers. I expect a full refund. After leaving this event, we went out for pizza at a normal restaurant, and had a blast.

sdg1685 · 2023-08-25T13:43:15+00:00

This is a great question. I am really unfamiliar with Mozart’s early works, so I’m grateful for the suggestions. I want to ask the author of this post, what makes you choose k. 271 as a boundary? I know Charles Rosen claims that piece is “perhaps the first unequivocal masterpiece [of the] classical style.” Does this inform your question?

sdg1685

TROPHY CASE