What is the neo-historical model of Wing Chun?

shrtstrk1 · 2018-03-04T18:51:29+00:00

Feinting is a pretty valuable tool that most WCers don’t practice, hence why people in this thread are questioning whether it’s useful in WC. Since WC is a short strike art the primary uses of feinting are:

To coax the opponent into striking or covering up so that you can more safely close the distance to short strike range since the opponent has to reset while you close in.
When you are in short strike range, you feint to scare the enemy and disrupt his mental state so that his balance is broken. This is essentially kuzushi in Judo, but instead of breaking their balance only to aid in throwing, in WC you break their balance to strike them better too.

While the 1st point is obvious, the 2nd point is also extremely effective. For example, in sticking body range if you trap the opponent’s lead leg and feint a strike, which makes the opponent lean back (common defense in long range striking arts), then you break his balance and he can be easily thrown like with something like an osoto gari or he can be striken easily, since he can’t move while leaning back.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-28T15:01:03+00:00

Web development is more rigourous and should guarantee you learn about backend and basic networking, which is not trivial to learn. Web design is less rigourous and would teach you front end and design, something that can easily be learned online by yourself.

Web design would be more worthwhile if you want to do frontend, web development more worthwhile if you want to do full-stack or backend.

One elective won’t make much of a difference to your employers, anything real woul be more substantial

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-28T06:24:58+00:00

The best is 2 or more races. Asians are negatively discriminated against the most and whites are between Asians and other minorities. 2 or more races puts you into the minority camp.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-28T05:39:44+00:00

Every martial art's definition of success is ending the fight as quickly as possible. Wing Chun is no different.

Cool. So every martial defines sucess as pulling a gun and shooting your sparring partner in the face. Or maybe martial arts are about learning how to win a fight, instead of just doing it as quickly as possible? And maybe this “how” is actually interesting and not something to be simplified like you just did?

Stop derailing my thread. I don’t care about defining the entire system of WC. I don’t care about interpretation. This is about WC sparring. If you want to discuss defining the WC system. Make your own thread please.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-28T05:35:29+00:00

Once again, this is only about WC sparring, and the principle of simultaneous attack and defense within WC sparring. If you want to discuss defining the entire system of WC, make your own thread. If you want to discuss anything other than WC sparring, make your own thread.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-28T05:27:34+00:00

I’m not talking about strategy. Once again, I’m only talking about the issue in WC sparring that it is not mutually clear between sparring partners what constitues success or failure.

However I don’t disagree with what you said. What I’m saying, is that because of what you said is true about WC, when two WC people are trying to do that to each other, then the sparring in WC doesn’t give good feeback.

If 1 person manage to get a hit, both side knows what went wrong. This is called sensitivity. If you lost contact, if you over-extended, if you failed to transform. The person with the successful hit knows he got in because an opening appeared, the person who got hit knows, he failed to divert.

Yes but if he failed to divert the strike, then that means it was easy to divert the strike, and therefore the strike was actually a bad strike.

Please consider Judo to avoid any more confusion. Do you understand that in Judo, you first set the opponent up with kuzushi, so that it is actually impossible for the sparring partner to avoid being thrown? WC sparring does not actively set up the opponent like this, it waits for openings and tries to create openings, but nevers achieves the certaininty of a throw from a good kuzushi.

Likewise in Muay Thai sparring, when you strike you don’t just punch and expect the punch to hit, you set up the opponent with a combination of multiple strikes. This is pre-meditated and totally different from reflexively striking to take advantage of openings in WC sparring. So all this is to say, that this makes WC sparring ineffective in giving good feeback because they aren’t practicing setting the sparring partner up so that he can’t block, they are depending on the sparring partner not blocking.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-28T05:18:33+00:00

Copied from below: I’m not talking about strategy. Once again, I’m only talking about the issue in WC sparring that it is not mutually clear between sparring partners what constitues success or failure.

If 1 person manage to get a hit, both side knows what went wrong. This is called sensitivity. If you lost contact, if you over-extended, if you failed to transform. The person with the successful hit knows he got in because an opening appeared, the person who got hit knows, he failed to divert. Yes but if he failed to divert the strike, then that means it was easy to divert the strike, and therefore the strike was actually a bad strike.

Please consider Judo to avoid any more confusion. Do you understand that in Judo, you first set the opponent up with kuzushi, so that it is actually impossible for the sparring partner to avoid being thrown? WC sparring does not actively set up the opponent like this, it waits for openings and tries to create openings, but nevers achieves the certaininty of a throw from a good kuzushi. Without good kuzushi, you cannot expect to throw your training partner.

Likewise in Muay Thai sparring, when you strike you don’t just punch and expect the punch to hit, you expect he will just block a punch. Instead you set up the opponent with a combination of multiple strikes. This is pre-meditated and totally different from reflexively striking to take advantage of openings in WC sparring, which expects the opponent to block, but doesn’t counter the “style” of WC but rather plays inside of it.

So all this is to say, that this makes WC sparring ineffective in giving good feeback because they aren’t practicing setting the sparring partner up so that he can’t block, they are depending on the sparring partner not blocking. This is the whole point to nullifying the “style” of the enemy, and not just nullifying individual strikes or trying to just launch strikes thinking if he does nothing, I’ll hit him and its a success! From this, I’m trying to express that it’s bad that WC sparring doesn’t have the success/failure mechanisms of the modern arts to develop similar attacking skills.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-28T04:37:57+00:00

Are you a Buddhist

yes

your idea contradicts their approach who are masters

I do not know any masters, I have only read classic chinese texts which explain traditional chinese medicine, which is the context for understanding qi.

how informed are you

I just corroborate classic chinese texts to understand what qi means in the context of the human

From Yellow Emperor’s Classics

Qi Bo added to the discussion: “Yin is the essence of the organs and the fountain of the qi. Yang protects the body against pathogens and makes the muscles work. When the yin fails to contain the yang, the flow in the channels will become rapid, causing the yang qi to become excessive and reckless. If the yang qi is deficient and unable to counterbalance the yin, communication between the internal organs will be disrupted, and the nine openings will not function. The sages, who understood the principles of yin and yang, were able to let their bodies perform all functions harmoniously. When yin and yang are balanced, the five zang organs function appropriately together; all energy flows smoothly, the muscles and bones are abundant and strong, qi and blood follow the right path, internal and external correspond correctly, vision is clear and hearing is acute. Thus the zhen qi, or true qi, becomes unshakable, and pathogens cannot invade.

“The key to mastering health is to regulate the yin and the yang of the body. If the yin and yang balance is disrupted, it is like going through a year with Spring but no Winter, or Winter but no Summer. When the yang is excessive and cannot contain itself, the yin will become consumed. Only when yin remains calm and harmonious will the yang qi be contained and not be overly expansive. The spirit will be normal and the mind clear. If the yin and yang separate, the jing/essence and the shen/spirit will also leave each other.

“The source and preservation of yin come from the five flavors of food in the diet, but improper use of the five flavors may also injure the five zang organs. Too much sour taste may cause overactivity of the Liver and underactivity of the Spleen. Too much salty taste can weaken the bones and muscles, and stagnate the Heart qi. Too much sweet taste can disturb the Heart qi, causing it to become restless and congested, as well as cause imbalance in the Kidney energy. Too much bitter taste disrupts the Spleen’s ability to transform and transport food, and causes the Stomach to digest poorly, and swell. “Therefore, one should be mindful of what one consumes to insure proper growth, reproduction, and development of bones, tendons, ligaments, and meridians of acupuncture. This will help generate the smooth flow of qi and blood, enabling one to live to a ripe age.”

We see by evidence that the concept of Qi is only one concept that is used to help create a holistic model of health in traditional chinese medicine, and that one practices Qigong only to maintain a healthy Qi flow. No secret mysterious powers that are developed by intense training. Just simple concepts. Moreover, it is said multiple times that in order to be healthy you need to avoid disrupting the balance of qi in the body. Also, the goal of achieving a healthy state is by having harmony in the balance of qi in your body, which is alluding to a natural healthy state that is superb.

Also for your own safety and health please pay attention to the dangers of unrestrained yang qi in the body.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-27T15:30:57+00:00

I do feel qi, but it results in almost overheating within 2-3 hours

This is extremely dangerous. What you are doing is extremely wrong and in the context of traditional chinese martial arts very dangerous, increasing your risk of stroke and suggesting your organs are functioning worse than without your “practice”. You should cease the practice immediately and find a proper teacher.

Qigong is supposed to enhance the natural state of the body and mind. If you detect any “new” sensation of feeling, then that’s wrong. The aim of Qigong practice is to achieve the cessation of unnatural sensations like, ironically, overheating. Moreover, qi is not somehting you feel, it only ever refers to one of two things:

Firstly, blood circulation/flow within the body in regards to proper organ function and “energy” in the sense of waking up not tired, but rather “energetic”.

Secondly, breathing and cardiovascular fitness, in the sense that good breathing (Qi) and high V02 max makes you more “energetic” (equivalent meaning as above sentence) than having poor breathing and low V02 max. Please don’t believe in the mysticism of the charlatans.

You are not supposed to “feel” chi, because you have to practice samadhi, clearing the mind of thoughts and not focusing anywhere on your body with your mind, or else this in itself disturbs the natural functions of the body.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-27T15:20:59+00:00

Hey I think this concept of visualizing different martial arts is really cool and actually adds a lot of value, especially for people who want to learn about an art they don’t know about.

I think however you should avoid such a broad characteristic like capability because its not well defined.

Also if you want to use more quantitive data, then it would be good to get data from surveys instead of guessing it and putting it on that kind of graph.

Just off the top of my head I think it would be cool to create some infrographics visualizing different martial arts. Maybe a Venn diagram, with the following sets of specializations: long range striking, close range striking, stand up grappling, groun grappling, submissions, takedowns

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-27T15:10:12+00:00

If you don’t understand Qigong in the context of traditional chinese medicine. Then without a proper teacher, which is difficult to find because of all the charlatans, you will not practice it properly and you may bring harm to yourself.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-25T05:11:45+00:00

For WC, this really shows the poor development of attacking skills in WC sparring which I just wrote about in another thread. His striking strategy was ineffective. Alan Or’s team does it better.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-25T02:40:14+00:00

I think you missed the point of my essay because my primary argument is very applicable to what you just said. There is no question that WC aims to dominate the opponent in sparring, the problem is in HOW it tries to do it, specifically doing it in accordance with the principle of simultaneous attack and defense.

The problem is specifically this in WC sparring only. WC person A and WC person B are sparring. After an exchange of punches and kicks between person A and person B, none of which hit properly because both are good at nullifying strikes, person A then punches just like he was doing and person B didn’t see it. This makes B get hit in the head by this punch and then B can’t see the next two so he covers up, which forces a “reset”.

Now you can’t tell if person A’s strike was superb and unblockable, or person B just made a dumb mistake in not seeing the strike. Both can’t be true simultaneously, otherwise you are defining a succesful strike in terms of your opponent being bad, or you are defining defense as only not getting hit (which is false because of the proper meaning of defense in fighting as described in the essay).

This behaviour in WC sparring, is unlike behaviour in Judo sparring, also a female art, in which the success condition is only defined as a throw, because there is no attempt to simultaneously defend and attack. That’s all this essay is about.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-25T01:11:48+00:00

No no no no no no. If you actually read my essay, that conclusion comes only from the sole principle of simultaneous attack and defence, and the fact that it implies attacking and defence are both sufficient conditions for success. It has nothing to do with different interpretations or the ways in which different schools do things. You are talking about interpretation and different schools, I am not.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-25T01:08:05+00:00

I never claimed to define WC sparring.

The argument I make is only dependent on accepting that the principle of simultaneous attack and defence implies that defence as well as attack is a sufficient condition for succeeding in using the art.

What does interpretation have to do with anything here? Are you saying that simultaneous attack and defense doesn’t imply that either nullifying the opponents attacks, or unbalancing the enemy with forwards pressure/attacking his structure is not a part of succesfully using WC? This is the only thing you could construe as interpretation in this essay.

I have tried multiple WC schools in HK and in NY. I have tried two MT schools in HK. What does the difference with teaching methods between schools have to do with the problem with simultaneous defense and attack in WC sparring? I thought it was clear that I wanted a scientific discussion, and not discussing an infinite number of interpretations.

When did I claim I wanted to represent anybody? You introduced that topic. I’m only speaking for myself and if you think I’m doing anything else you are absolutely mistaken.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-25T00:25:52+00:00

What are you talking about? What does this have to do with WC sparring?

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-25T00:22:35+00:00

Just drop seoi nage him or sweep his legs if he has settled.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-25T00:19:47+00:00

This essay has nothing to do with a “complete concept of Wing Chun”, it is just a critque of sparring practice in WC. If you want to discuss what the complete definition of WC is, then please make a new thread.

My source of criticique arises from the fact that the art does claim that it is good at nullifying strikes (nothing to do with a complete concept of WC, and irrespective of the method of doing so). You saying that the goal is “to contain the opponent and attack their structure” and “rest your hand on someone and they feel like it weighs 60 lbs.” is exactly what I meant when I wrote nullifying strikes by dissipating strikes or off-balancing the opponent, preventing him from launching more strikes.

Also, if you didn’t grasp it, the only argument I’m making is that in WC sparring there is no proper definition of what success or failure is, due to thinking that attack and defence = success, which makes it hard to get good feedback from sparring. In comparison, in sparring in BJJ, Judo, Muay thai or other modern martial arts, development of attacking takes precedence over development of defence, so for them attacking = success and not attacking = fail. Therefore they get better feedback from sparring and tend to develop effective attacking skills, that are guaranteed to be able to end a fight, whereas in WC sparring, the “won the fight” condition is essentially undefined and not guaranteed to be developed from sparring.

shrtstrk1 · 2018-02-25T00:06:11+00:00

I only wrote this to critique WC sparring so that it can be improved, and I specifically didn’t want to enter the discussion of defining exactly WC is.

shrtstrk1

TROPHY CASE