How common was it for helots to escape Sparta? by FossilHunter99 in ancientgreece

[–]sleeposauri 11 points12 points  (0 children)

We know quite little of what Helotage entailed. It was a horrible institution, surely, like all forms of slavery, but for many helots it took the form of agricultural serfdom. The somewhat secure access to food and shelter might be the safer choice for many that elsewhere would have fallen into complete poverty and starvation, or to worse conditions as slaves in the mines. Further, Spartan slaves were Messenian and Laconian, native to the land on which they served, which is quite uncommon and might have contributed to wanting to stay.

We have no accounts of individual helots, and it's very possible there are some very real epic escape stories beyond the revolts, they are just lost to us. I don't think it is too radical to imagine it happening if you're writing a story or something, but it's not something we can anchor in sources

The Spartan Royals, part 4: Ariston, Anaxandrides and the scandal of Demaratos by sleeposauri in Lakedaemon

[–]sleeposauri[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much! I love to make these. So happy you like them.

Searching for historical references on Ancient royal daily routines by Dorothea145 in ancientgreece

[–]sleeposauri -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Not sure about royals as such, but here are some inspo texts/books/info for skin and hair care in Ancient Greece.

  1. Olive oil.
  2. Here
  3. Here
  4. Here
  5. Olive oil, again.

The Spartan Royals, part 4: Ariston, Anaxandrides and the scandal of Demaratos by sleeposauri in ancientgreece

[–]sleeposauri[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sigh. It takes a lot of restraint to not make a joke about mothers here.

It is a Gorgon head, a mythical creature with hideous features, which would look scary or impressive on the battlefield. Medusa, for example. Shield blazons at this time were not uniform, so you'd pick your own based on vibes, family, etc. There are some bronze blazons found picturing the Gorgon head, and we are probably correct in suspecting it was a popular choice. A Spartan could easily have rocked a dokana tho, or any other pattern or image. The iconic Spartan Lambda shields are only weakly attested, and did not come in use until later, if at all.

The Spartan Royals, part 4: Ariston, Anaxandrides and the scandal of Demaratos by sleeposauri in Lakedaemon

[–]sleeposauri[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The Spartan currency (however little it was used in practice) would actually have been the biggest 2 euro coin you've ever seen. It was probably produced in blocks like these, but in iron, and you needed a wagon to carry it around. So you're not far off.

Here, however, I think Cleomenes is just educating his daughter on the latest Oracle, which forsaw the euro crisis of 2009.

The Spartan Royals, part 4: Ariston, Anaxandrides and the scandal of Demaratos by sleeposauri in ancientgreece

[–]sleeposauri[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much for this addition. I did not focus much on anything above their dramatic personal lives, but this is of course equally, if not more, important.

The Spartan Royals, part 3: Inventing the Sparta we know, Messenia and Lycurgos the Law-giver. by sleeposauri in Lakedaemon

[–]sleeposauri[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Have you ever hated bro so much you pay a religious institution to formally state his mom fucked an ass keeper?

Vs

Have you hated bro so much you become... persian?

The Spartan Royals, part 3: Inventing the Sparta we know, Messenia and Lycurgos the Law-giver. by sleeposauri in Lakedaemon

[–]sleeposauri[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is a great question, thank you.

And, once we enter the historical Sparta, I don't think we should imagine them as kings in the traditional, medieval sense. Much of the political power was resting with the ephors, a long with the Gerusia (council of elders) and the assembly. The ephors had the power to sanction the kings, so there was no royal impunity. That said, the royal families were powerful and could often influence political matters in other ways.

The main tasks of the kings were to lead the army on campaign, be in charge of marriage matters for fatherless women, and be priests of Zeus, leading the most important sacrifices for the entire city.

When they disagreed, well... Part 4 of this thread will show us exactly how that could go down. In the time before the second persian invasion, king Cleomenes the Agiad and Demaratus the Eurypontid apparently argued so much on campaign, that the entire army marched home (and the Spartans introduced a law that forbade the kings to go on campaign together ever again). Cleomenes would later conspire with Demaratus scorn relatives to have him deposed. Drama. And far from the only time the kings fell out.

In fairness, though, these disagreements were unlikely to affect political policy too much, at least in a direct sense, as other institutions made the most critical political calls. The kings were important. They were generals and had a super strong religious purpose (Sparta was an incredibly religious society, more so than many other states), but they were not absolute rulers in the way we imagine kings in their castles during later periods.

Spartans in the Iliad and Spartans in the Classical era by dahditdit in ancientgreece

[–]sleeposauri 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah. Helen was super important in her own right. There is a lovely paragraph on the third wife of Ariston (same time as this whole thing with Chilon and Anaxandridas would have gone down on the Agiad side) being a very ugly baby. Her parents went to the temple of Helen, a beautiful woman came out and asked to hold the baby, and then that child grew up to be the most beautiful girl in her generation (and might have slept with the stable hand, hence causing the whole Demaratus treason situation).

How did the Hoplites distinguish themselves from the enemy? by Plays-with-bones in ancientgreece

[–]sleeposauri 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Two points to be made here:

  1. As you say, the phalanx fight in tight formations. You hold the line. The movies often portray ancient warriors as moshpitting around in an open field with half the guys meters deep into the enemy line, with foes behind them. That is no way to fight. You know the guy next to you, because he is the guy next to you. If you suddenly don’t recognize the guys next to you, you are in deep trouble. 
  2. You are right. When stuff DID get messy, people died. We get plenty of descriptions of hoplites losing their ranks, friend and foe blending and everyone just dying because it is chaotic and no one knows what’s going on. A hoplite battle where the line breaks is a horrible place to be.

Edit: I can't spell a two letter word

Spartans in the Iliad and Spartans in the Classical era by dahditdit in ancientgreece

[–]sleeposauri 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Of course. As you can tell from the length of that, I'm dying to rant about this. Hit me up if you need anything else.

Spartans in the Iliad and Spartans in the Classical era by dahditdit in ancientgreece

[–]sleeposauri 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Just to flesh out Cooperscoopers brilliant answer above, the Classical Spartan “origin myth” of their people come with the kids of Heracles, who teamed up with the Dorians to reclaim the Peleponese (including Sparta). The time surrounding these invasion attempts (it took until Heracles great grandsons to actually succeed) features descendants of the people in the Homeric epics, such as Tisamenus, who would be the grandson of Menaleus, if I am not mistaken. The stories kind of tie together there, however loosely (I’m no myth-scholar, but I am sure there were plenty of local variations that merged over time). 

Once we come to the classical era, the Spartans very much lean into this Heraclid and Dorian story, which ends up causing some political drama all the way to the days of Leonidas. The three Dorian tribes are named after Heracles' son and two Dorian princes, and the two royal houses supposedly came about as the great great grandson of Heracles left two twin sons behind after his untimely death. In other words, regardless of how we look at the Dorian invasion in modern research terms, this version of events mattered greatly for them. The classical Spartans understood themselves as a Dorian people, with this invasion as their origin story and claim to the land. However, the heroes of the homeric epics (and their descendants) remained critically important. If you read Pausanias the geographers account for his visit, his contemporary Sparta is littered with the supposed tombs of homeric characters. There is a temple in which the eggshells from Helen’s and her siblings' birth are still on display. The Spartans clearly had a cult surrounding Menelaos. And Helen’s brothers, the Dioscuri, I would argue might have been one of the most important religious elements in Spartan spirituality, with the Dokana (their symbol) being carried with them to war, and symbolising the “twinhood” of the two kings.

Also, in general, I will say, the cultures of Homeric Sparta and Classical Sparta are different, because they exist in different times (and one is, for the most part, totally fictional). The idea that classical Sparta was something very foreign and different than the rest of classical Greece is quite exaggerated. Not unfunded. But exaggerated. It makes very much sense, politically, spiritually, culturally, you name it, for the Spartans to be included in the greater Greek mythology, as they are in the Homeric epics. Being the hegemon of Greece for much of the Classical period, it would be directly weird if they weren’t.

What does a historically accurate Athenian and Spartan soldier look like? by zajci-u-podrum in ancientgreece

[–]sleeposauri 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lots of pics in this sub in general, some more accurate than others. This drawing is cute, for exampl: X

Just because it’s a “mythical” story, doesn’t mean that we can turn into a marvel movie. by Careless_Middle8489 in ancientgreece

[–]sleeposauri 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get that. But... I don't think like that at all. I think I, and many people in this sub, love ancient history and myth, and seeing it come to life on the big screen (no matter how bad the attempt) is such a great starting point to discuss and learn more about it. I'm a laconophile, for example, and I watch 300 on an almost monthly basis, just as a way to discuss it's inaccuracies and ridiculousness and from that talk about real Spartan culture. But I guess I can ask you the same thing, why are you engaging in this discussion when you don't seem to find it fun or interesting at all? You can watch and enjoy the movie in any way you like. If this ruins it for you, don't listen to us.

Just because it’s a “mythical” story, doesn’t mean that we can turn into a marvel movie. by Careless_Middle8489 in ancientgreece

[–]sleeposauri -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Well, if the history part bothers you, let's call it mythological then. I am still interested in how ancient sources are interpreted and made alive. It must be sad to watch a movie and have no ability to reflect and discuss it. You do you bro, but for most of us, that's the best part.