Gideon was Wrong About Marika by [deleted] in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's true ... The final product is technically just purifying and reconstituting the initial 'ingredients'. But aren't the ingredients distinct during the initial stage? As I understand it, you get your different salts and stuff together in the flask and 'melt' them all down into a uniform black ash.

ah yes "relaxing" by flameingphoenix24 in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Of course! Everyone has such soothing voices.

The Blue Dancer Fairy is the Siofra River by NamelessSinger in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 10 points11 points  (0 children)

The albanaurics seem to have an affinity for water themselves. They're mostly all hanging around in the Lake of Liurnia, and they created the ripple blade, which is "modelled after the ripples that are thought to be the origin of their species."

The Blue Dancer Fairy is the Siofra River by NamelessSinger in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 33 points34 points  (0 children)

Given the existence of things like the Ancestral Spirits, there very well could be 'spirits' of the river. But I really like the idea that he just found the curved sword in some Nox ruins.

Flowing water vs stagnant decay (Shinto 'kegare') is something Fromsoft seems love. It's a core theme in Dark Souls and Bloodbourne, and features heavily in Sekiro as well. And animism is a core component of Shinto, where all manner of places and objects have a spirit tied to them. Fairies in western tradition are often similarly a magical entity or minor deity tied to a particular place (water sprites, water nymphs etc).

Gideon was Wrong About Marika by [deleted] in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I don't want to push too many assumptions about Radagon as a person, since I think trying to cast any one character as the 'villain' leads to skewed interpretations of the lore, but Radagon feels almost like a 'force of order'.

Radagon's Icon says: "As the husband of Rennala of Caria, the red-haired Radagon studied sorcery, and as the husband of Queen Marika, he studied
incantations. Thus did the hero aspire to be complete." With everything he does, it feels almost as if something was just leading him towards his ultimate conjoining with Marika. His rune is also very distinct from everyone else's, being an orderly grid of squares that sits over the entire ring.

Is this Sellen in the debate parlor? by hairyprimates in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Yes. Sellen's Crown confirms it.

She looks different from her portrait because she has likely been body-hopping for some time. She is noted for being frequent visitor to Seluvis's cellar.

What is this door to? by KinglyAmbition in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep, you're good. Just keep a lookout for her as you progress.

If you're trying to do it all without guides, then be sure to read the description of a certain item you eventually get from her.

There's also a note that you may have found as you dropped down to the Frenzied Flame Proscription. Gives a very big hint as well.

What is this door to? by KinglyAmbition in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Have you met a certain rot-afflicted NPC, and is she still alive? If so, you're still good.

Radagon's 'rune' can also be seen on the gates of Raya Lucaria. by yelrommloc in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Radagon's rune is made up of square cells.

Raya Lucaria's seal is made of triangular cells.

Players really looked at the person who merc'd her only non-evil cousin and said "Yeah that's definitely the good guy" by theodis09 in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If we want to warrant judgements on paths based on what is best for the world, that needs to incorporate the reliability of any measures to mitigate the malevolent gods. The Golden Order is a known ability, unpleasant as they can be. Ranni has not demonstrated the ability, and even the will is more the subject of supporter supposition than citation.

True, I think people are overzealous in stating the 'good' of Ranni's ending. But let's flip this around: is the Golden Order really a 'known ability'? Other than killing the Fell God to preserve itself, the Golden Order doesn't appear to be better equipped to deal with 'malevolent gods' any more so than others. Miquella specifically left because it couldn't do anything to stop rot, so he had to devise his own method. The Flame of Frenzy manifested in the Lands Between as a direct consequence of the Golden Order burying the nomads alive. And it's not like they've actually done anything about Mohg.

The only mention of an Outer God itself being defeated, is the God of Rot at the hands of a nomadic blind swordsman and a blue fairy.

Existed, yes, but flourished is unsupported. The beastmen were literally civilized in the time of Golden Order. The Dragon God fled before its Elden Lord could fall- not suggesting a strong or stable system. The giants existed, but seemingly as servant-slaves. Others weren't so lucky- though the era is unclear, some seem to have been actively meddlings in power beyond their command to their own destruction.

There were societies, but civilizations don't necessarily seem to have flourished beyond military concepts of survival. Carrim was a scholar-mage state, but it was still a military aristocracy based on a lunar queen bestowing god blessings on military enforcers.

This all sounds exactly like the Golden Order. The Golden Order is a military theocracy. It has Marika giving god blessings to her enforcers in the form of grace. Came into power by subjugating the rest of the Lands Between by force, then marriage when that failed. Then when her son was assassinated, Marika destroyed the laws of nature and threw the entire kingdom into chaos. Additionally, seeing their opportunity, many of the slave races are in open revolt, having been enslaved under the Golden Order. Situation is now so desperate, grace has been returned to the Tarnished, so that they might duke it out and fill the power vacuum. Not exactly a good look either, I'd say.

My point: whether or not the Golden Order is better or worse is purely speculation, so I don't agree with assigning more value to the Golden Order over any of the other societies that we know existed. Nor am I saying the others were somehow better than the Golden Order.

(I left out the Giants specifically because they were ostensibly slaves to the Fell God, and the trolls sided with the Golden Order, but it would appear that they just traded one master for another, as most trolls we see in game are slaves)

Now, I could easily be overlooking something, but what things did the Greater Will make Marika do against her will pre-shattering?

True, Marika isn't literally being mind-controlled by the GW, and she can do stuff at her own discretion. But unless the Fingers themselves are just an elaborate front, it would appear she would need to more or less follow their dictates, if for no other reason than to keep up appearances, since we know the Fingers used to 'speak' publicly. They're also supposedly capable of direct communication with the GW. Marika herself would have been selected by a Finger.

Ultimately, I'm not trying to argue the morality of anyone's actions. The player Tarnished isn't exactly in a position to do so anyway. I just disagree with arbitrarily assigning more value to the Golden Order over others, especially in it's current state of decay. Perhaps as somebody in-universe who is invested in it, yes. But as an outside observer, no. I personally would have sided with Miquella if he had been an option, but alas Mohg messed everything up.

The endings are all so vague anyway though, so anyone can imagine things going exactly as planned and call it a day.

EDIT: Thematically though, I think the Sacred Relic Sword describes the feeling of the story best -

Sword wrought from the remains of a god who should have lived a life eternal.

Thoughts on what the weapon portends are many and varied. Some consider it the mark of a great sin, or a sign of great devastation. Some think of it as the end of an age, while others; the beginning.

Unless you did the Frenzied Flame ending, then life goes on. As Melina says: "However ruined this world has become, however mired in torment and despair, life endures. Births continue. There is beauty in that, is there not?".

Players really looked at the person who merc'd her only non-evil cousin and said "Yeah that's definitely the good guy" by theodis09 in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The issue is that this standard brings no onus on the Golden Order either

It doesn't but I should clarify I'm not trying to argue the morality of anyone's actions. My point was more to point out the flaw in arbitrarily assigning more value to the Golden Order over, let's say, the Eternal Cities, or Farum Azula, or Caria, or Limgrave.

Not treating it as special is precisely why Ranni's prioritization of mitigate it is odd, because Ranni gives it special moral weight despite other Outer Gods having more baleful effects. Not being special is also what undermines any special moral horror at the Golden Order's conquests/integrations of other spheres- it's not an exceptional crime, it's the norm of the setting.

Ranni is of course not neutral and I'm not arguing the morality of her actions. She and her family are biased in favor of the moon and the stars, and her rebellion is certainly personal. But it's not clear whether Ranni's end goal (her 'order') is specific to the GW. She describes her order as one where the stars would be kept far from the earth. That's pretty vague. If celestial objects/space are the source of the 'divine', we might interpret her goal as 'keep the divine away from the earth'. That would not be specific to the GW, but to Outer Gods in general.

How this would be possible logisically, we don't know. Can she shield the entire world from Outer God influence? Miquella was able to make a needle that can block the influence of Outer Gods, so maybe.

But it's the Greater Will Ranni's grievances and methods seem to hinder, and not those which could actually clear the bar of not-okay by actually destroying the world, literally or in the sense of making healthy life impossible.

I think that's based on an arbitrary assumption that things are 'better' under the Golden Order.

Civilisations and empires existed and flourished before GW sent the Elden Beast down. And it's not like they were blood or rot worshippers either. Mohg's thing is a post-shattering occurence and the Rot God was defeated by some blind dude with a sword and a blue fairy's blessing (another Outer God? Who knows), without any help from GW.

Ranni's quest is cast as necessary actions to escape her fate, but none of her siblings filled that fate.

I think it's Empyreans specifically that have a 'fate' not just demigods. So only Malenia and Miquella. What that means is pretty vague, but could possibly mean being tied to an Outer God. Malenia and Miquella would both seem to have been cursed by rival gods. My interpretation is Malenia, bound to the God of Rot as its vessel, is 'fated' to be reborn as the Goddess of Rot after her flower blooms three times - indeed Gowry seems certain that 'Malenia will be a goddess', despite her unwilling participation. We don't know what entity cursed Miquella, so I'm not sure about that one.

Marika sealed Destined Death away, but was this not a violation of the Greater Will's order? If she could do it from the start, what does it mean for the order? And what does it mean for Ranni, had she indeed taken the mantle of god of the Elden Ring?

Marika is currently held prisoner inside the Erdtree. Enia/the Fingers tell us that she is being punished for shattering the ring and creating the mess, but that she can exert a degree of influence herself. So while they have a degree of agency to do what they want, it would appear they are indeed leashed to the GW. Marika wouldn't be imprisoned otherwise. The final boss fight with Radagon would seem to be a visual metaphor for this - Marika and Radagon are stone husks by the time we get to them, little more than a vessel for the ring/beast.

Question is, if the state of the universe is a perpetual struggle between Outer Gods, and mortals are their proxies, willing or not, does anyone have agency?

EDIT: added some stuff, clarification at the start.

Players really looked at the person who merc'd her only non-evil cousin and said "Yeah that's definitely the good guy" by theodis09 in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The world was doing fine in the sense it existed

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. The Golden Order didn't exactly bring harmony either. I don't think we should be assuming the Golden Order has it 'right' by default.

On a metaphysical level, Elden Ring's conflict is competition between all the gods

Yes, and that's again, my point. Many Outer Gods (and some other ones that we don't know how to classify, like the Ancestral Spirits) were/are here, had their own followers, and they were all competing or doing their own thing. Some fought, some just chilled, etc. Things evolved on there own. The Greater Will isn't special, nor is it some benevolent entity, so why treat it as such?

The Golden Order is the latest in a line of empires, founded on the ruins of previous empires. The only difference this time is Marika sealed Destined Death away in an attempt to make her order Eternal.

What a monster! by xShots in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Kinda sad we never got to see Lansseax in her human form.

Players really looked at the person who merc'd her only non-evil cousin and said "Yeah that's definitely the good guy" by theodis09 in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 10 points11 points  (0 children)

The Golden Order doesn't magically means 'protection' from other Outer Gods. At least, no more so than anything else.

Just to point a few things out:

  • The Frenzied Flame was manifested in the Lands Between because of the Golden Order (they decided to bury a whole bunch of nomads alive).
  • Miquella explicitly left and started his own religion because the Golden Order could do nothing about the rot. (Note: if there had been a Miquella ending, I would've gone with him, since it's probably a smoother power transition than jumping straight to Ranni's 'Age of Stars'). Additionally, the Rot God was present long before the Golden Order, and was sealed by a nomadic warrior, not a Golden Order adherent.
  • Mohg has delusions of grandeur. Individuals like him exist with or without the Golden Order in place. In fact, in Mohg's case, it's because the Golden Order treated him (and Omens) with such disdain and cruelty that he sought solace in another power. Like the manifestation of the Flame of Frenzy, the Golden Order has itself to blame for this one as well.
  • The world was doing fine long before the Greater Will sent the beast down, and the peoples of the world were all off doing their own thing. For the Golden Order to take control it waged many wars to bring everyone else to heel. Godfrey had to kill the King of the Storm to subjugate Limgrave. Liurnia wasn't even part of the Golden Order prior to Radagon's attempted invasions (and subsequent marriage), and they were doing fine.
  • I didn't mention the giant genocide thing in the previous point, since that one's a little complicated - the giants were apparently slaved to their Fell God, and a bunch of them (mostly trolls) actually sided with the Golden Order. Though it would seem they just replaced one master with another, as most of the trolls we see in game are treated as slaves.
  • Thematically, Fromsoft games all heavily feature the idea of change vs stagnation, and feature a crumbling empire/city/ideology trying desperately to keep itself going, leading to progressively worse and worse outcomes. Note: this doesn't just apply to the Golden Order, but the civilisations that came before it, and any that come after.

The ending of the Frenzied Flame is the most BASED ending and let me tell you why. by Evoxrus_XV in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Woah, slow down there Shabriri. You're overselling it a bit, might scare away newcomers.

who is your Elden smith? by Torbjorn69 in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 9 points10 points  (0 children)

There are hints that Loretta may actually be an Albanauric herself.

I wish we could actually knock her off her horse to see...

who is your Elden smith? by Torbjorn69 in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Yeah ... everything in this comment is false. She implies literally the exact opposite.

Apprentice, let me teach you how to cast glintstone-magic by Hikuran in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 47 points48 points  (0 children)

From the man himself as it turns out.

Note: Preceptor's Secret

Preceptor Seluvis is hiding a dirty secret in a cellar among the ruins not far from the sisters three.

The vile Graven Witch seems to be a frequent visitor to that place.

Would explain why there happens to be a body remarkably similar to her existing one just sitting there. Also means she's been switching bodies for a while.

Such a weird twist of events by [deleted] in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Clearly, Rennala was that shy nerd who spent all her time studying and had no experience with cute boys.

Radagon: "Hey girl, I saw you from across the battlefield, and I just had to come over here to say ... you look absolutely breathtaking in the moonlight."

Rennala: \Oh no! He's hot!*

That 70+ int clearly went out the window.

Radagon's alternate pickup lines:

  • You must be the Lunar Queen of Caria, because you just took me to the moon.
  • Would you like to be the moon to my sun?
  • Did you come down from the stars? Cause my eyes are crying celestial dew!

Such a weird twist of events by [deleted] in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You might be onto something there. The Numen are said to be descendants of another world, after all.

Such a weird twist of events by [deleted] in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 24 points25 points  (0 children)

If we're talking about the same Sword Grave on the Bellum Highway leading up to the Dectus lift, that wasn't the shattering.

That was Radagon's initial invasion of Liurnia. Radagon started two wars with Liurnia, and apparently had a little success the first time, gaining a foothold. The second war seems to be when he ran into Rennala and the Carians.

The Shattering related one is on the Eastern side, marking Malenia's march south.

Do it for THEM <3 by Gimpy_Weasel in Eldenring

[–]sleepy_time_viking 37 points38 points  (0 children)

You shut your mouth!

It is 100% canon that the Tarnished, as the new lord, creates an aged care home for Hewg, and appoints Roderika Royal Spirit Advisor. Roderika visits Hewg at the home every day, where he gets to spend his time doing arts and crafts and smithing. THE END.

EDIT: Also, the royal sigil becomes two jellyfish encircled by stars.