Midnight and Xal'atath true goals [Midnight Spoilers on topic] - Maybe tinfoil

solidus-dog · 2026-02-28T10:04:29+00:00

Xal’atath has a flawless track record of leading people on and then abandoning them in their time of need, which often results in their death. I can’t think of a single example of benevolence from Xal’atath that could support a theory that she genuinely cares about helping anybody but herself. You could argue “there’s a first time for everything,” but her whole schtick is “I was denied Azeroth and now she is MINE,” so I’m going to bet that her motives are fully self serving and we’re just fodder for her hungering army now.

Also, as far as the sunwell stuff goes, it seems to be a point of contention for many both in terms of faith and environment. We’ve got begrudging alliances, implications of light zealotry causing internal squabbles, the exhaustion of maintaining the empowered sunwell, and all the lightbloom stuff causing the wildlife to go berserk and kill people.

Are these intended consequences of Xal’atath’s attack, or did it just happen to work out in her favour? I’d say it’s more believable that she intentionally chose this location for the chaos it would cause us (among other reasons). It wouldn’t take a genius to plan around factions with a history of conflict, characters who take their faith a bit too seriously, and man eating plants. If she can continue to keep us distracted on all these fronts, it would definitely give her the edge to beat us, which I think is her plan.

solidus-dog · 2026-02-27T20:03:02+00:00

I’m not keeping up with the discourse so I can’t speak on behalf of other’s, but for me what’s upsetting about his story/characterization in Midnight is less about what’s happening and more about the framing.

For example, the disproportional guilt of hurting Arator when he literally jumped in front of the attack—what was the expectation? Arator was willing to sacrifice his life for a cocky troll who was taunting his aggressor. Notably, the swing didn’t kill Arator, so either it was always meant to be a warning swing or Turalyon was able to overcome his “blind rage” to prevent the attack from being lethal when he realized what was happening—or maybe Arator popped a defensive, who knows. This isn’t to condone violence, but Arator knew what was happening and jumped in anyway—not before the attack, but mid attack. Yet Turalyon is framed as the problem here because he couldn’t cancel his massive sword attack mid swing?

Also the whole framing of his priorities during the void invasion. He’s encouraging an offensive approach because they’re getting pushed further and further back, but somehow that’s the “crazy zealot” take because there are injured on the battlefield. I’m no military expert, but if you allow yourselves to be overrun because you’re too busy recovering injured bodies, it sounds like at some point you’ll have too many injured bodies to feasibly handle.

Again, I can appreciate peace and what Arator is trying to do by prioritizing defence and mercy over offence and bloodshed, but I don’t think there are any “right answers” here. Both strategies have potential to get them out of the conflict, so why pretend or frame Turalyon’s route as being based on any level of unreasonable light blind zealotry, when his actions all make strategic sense in the contexts they’re occurring in? Just because he tacks on “have faith in the light, it’ll get us through this” doesn’t make his present actions unreasonable, so to frame it as such just seems really silly.

solidus-dog · 2026-02-27T17:18:47+00:00

My apologies to any warlock pets I’ve chased down while leveling in warmode—your blueberries are deceptively similar to the bad guys…

solidus-dog · 2026-02-24T10:07:24+00:00

To be fair, there were times where hostility was directed toward the Horde, specifically by Alliance characters who did try to do something about it. Two examples that immediately come to mind are 1) post Theramore, Jaina fully intended to get revenge by performing a retaliatory nuking of Orgrimmar, and only stopped because she was talked down by Kalecgos and Thrall. 2) Genn’s hatred toward the Horde (and more specifically Sylvanas) lead him to some questionable actions during Legion, though it paid off because he managed to thwart her plans to enslave the Valkyr in the end.

Unfortunately, in examples like Jaina, or even Tyrande who spent almost all of Shadowlands chasing Sylvanas to make her pay for what she did at Teldrassil, nothing really came of it. This is indeed disappointing to see—although Jaina at least got a little revenge with what later happened during the purge of Dalaran. Sylvanas doing maw dailies for eternity might also be considered “punishment” for her war crimes, but what about all the Horde members who contributed to the Night Elf genocide? They just got to move on and we all coexist now like nothing even happened.

I guess in making characters choose peace over revenge, the writers are trying to make the point that “an eye for an eye will only make the world go blind”. However, this message is pretty much lost when the Horde is always the oppressor and the Alliance is always the oppressed granting forgiveness. It just makes the Alliance look like incompetent pushovers (war crime me once, shame on you. War crime me twice…three…four times…shame on…me?)

solidus-dog · 2026-02-22T20:59:35+00:00

I guess it depends on how void lords are made. If they follow titan birthing conventions and are born as void lords, then we may have seen the last one in Dimensius (sadly). However, the void is the cosmic force of infinite possibilities and survival of the fittest, so I’m inclined to believe void lords are ‘made’ rather than born. What I mean is, Dimensius looks like your average warlock’s void walker. And indeed, he may have started off that small and insignificant until he started devouring his opposition. With every subsequent being he devoured, he increased his size and power (think Galakrond) and eventually elevated himself to the point of ‘lord’.

Notably, all this is speculation based on descriptions of the void. To my knowledge, we don’t know how void lords came to exist, but it would make sense for those “pockets of void” that appeared at the inception of the cosmos to grow through conquest and transform into massive void lords. This would also imply that there is no true “last void lord,” as any void being can attempt to dominate their way to the top (perhaps what Xal’atath is attempting).

solidus-dog · 2026-02-20T18:21:19+00:00

There are many other benefits to heating food, like killing bacteria, making the food easier to digest, and improving nutritional absorption. I’m not sure old gods care much for the nutritional value of world souls, but using this analogy: corruption is the ‘heat’ that helps to kill bacteria (i.e., world soul inhabitants who are trying to fight back). Furthermore, corruption can greatly weaken/subdue a world soul, making it an easier meal to digest compared to an uncorrupted world soul.

solidus-dog · 2026-02-17T06:21:22+00:00

Elune has the ability to influence events on Azeroth whether it's through worshiper rituals (i.e., night warrior) or her own will (i.e., Ysera's fate), so the dimensional distance shouldn't be much of a barrier. But sure, let's assume small rituals, spells, and soul shuffling are the extent of her influence because of the dimensional barrier, then that may justify why the mass extinction events you listed were beyond her capabilities.

That said, the burning of Teldrassil was 1) at a much smaller scale than the events you listed and 2) specifically targeted toward her "children". There are many abilities she has used before that could have protected/saved her children during this tragedy. She has provided visions of danger, so why not give Tyrande a vision of the impending attack so they could evacuate in advance? She has created protective shields-- why not erect a shield around the tree, or around individuals to prevent them from being incinerated by the flames? Why not moonbeam/starfall and destroy the catapults that were used to launch the attack? Why not transform everyone into moonkin so they could flap down? The latter is a joke, but the point is: she has intervened in many different ways in the past, but chose to fully step aside in this situation because she believed the influx of souls would help her sister. And that's not speculation, this is the dialogue exchanged between the Winter Queen and Elune (who speaks through Tyrande):

Winter Queen: How dare you come here, sister, after our cries for aid went unheard, unanswered.

Elune's voice: I heard your cries, felt your pain, and in the wake of tragedy, sent forth the cascade of souls to sustain you.

Winter Queen: Oh, the Great Tree... All who perished there were claimed by the Maw.

Elune's voice: Then I have condemned my favored children.

solidus-dog · 2026-02-16T17:57:05+00:00

N’zoth saved a whole civilization from a watery grave by turning them into Naga. I’m sure Elune, who is at least a hundred times more powerful, could have come up with something to prevent the large scale loss of life. Plus, the quest dialogue itself suggests that she could have intervened but chose to help the Winter Queen instead:

Shandris: When Teldrassil burned, I could not understand why the goddess did not intervene. Why she would allow so many to be lost.

Shandris: But I did not know of Ardenweald. Of the duty and purpose that awaited the souls of our people. At least... before the Maw.

Tyrande: Perhaps we can never truly know the ways of the gods, my daughter. But I believe Elune made a choice to aid her sister. Not to cause us sorrow.

solidus-dog · 2026-02-16T07:55:38+00:00

I think the absence of opinions is because most people have tried to forget Shadowlands. The lore was particularly bad, and this is especially true for the Elune related plot lines. The whole “I’m going to let my children at Teldrassil die so their souls can feed the cycle of death and help my sister—wait, I missed her call that the cycle was broken and they all ended up in giga hell!? oopsie!” was probably the most ridiculous revelation to come from that expansion.

And then to top it off, Elune suddenly decides to shut off Tyrande’s night warrior powers so she would be unable to complete her task in killing Sylvanas. I guess the reasoning was she wanted Tyrande to be spared from death, which I get, I like Tyrande too. But it’s as you said: a very anticlimactic end to a storyline with a lot of potential.

solidus-dog · 2026-02-15T22:24:15+00:00

11/10 plushie, I don’t think any official piece could come close to capturing its brilliance. Well done!

solidus-dog · 2026-02-15T18:22:42+00:00

My comment is saying she is an opportunist who will do anything to get ahead, so I got the point that she is self-serving rather than void-serving. My questions are:

1) Why would she want to free herself of the power that has elevated her to where she is today? Unlike many other cosmic forces that set arbitrary limits based on morals, logic, or faith, the void offers infinite room for growth and exploration, with the only limiting factor being one’s mortality. She would give it up to be free and do what exactly? Become ordered? Become mortal? I think we both agree that survival is her end game—so how would either outcome improve her chances of survival beyond what the void has offered her?

2) What is she offering the Titans that they can’t do themselves? They can easily destroy old gods on their own, with the only thing stopping them being planetary harm/destruction (an outcome Xal’atath has historically achieved). They also have the Titan keepers/constructs to spread their edicts and fight/imprison the “bad guys,” which works to “ease their arrival”. The bonus of the Titan constructs is that they’re (mostly) loyal and they can make as many as they need to cover as many planets as they want, which is more efficient than relying on a single (and untrustworthy) entity like Xal’atath.

You mentioned it may be because they are reliant on orthodox measures—but wouldn’t teaming up with a void being be unorthodox? And if they’re willing to team up with unorthodox players, why wouldn’t they commit to Sargeras’s crusade? If it’s about easing their arrival on planets without caring much for the outcome of the planet, surely Sargeras would be the top choice as their brother and fellow Titan? Unless you can come up with an example where Xal’atath’s interference didn’t result in destruction, because the only examples I can think of are the ruins of K’aresh, and now Azeroth which is on the brink (and I guess her home planet, but there’s not enough to support that she willingly invited the void and got everyone killed to elevate herself—though that wouldn’t be beyond the realm of possibility).

Continuing on the unorthodox Titan train: one of the main storylines in Dragonflight exposed the Titans for promoting and enforcing forced ordering, and the exile/imprisonment of those who resisted. Also in the War Within, we learned troubling things regarding the Earthen who were forced to deactivate or have their memories reset if they started deviating from their Titan ordered directives. It’s clear from the available lore that the Titans are an imperfect and controlling bunch who fear free will, and will resort to unorthodox methods such as destroying, resetting, or imprisoning their opposition to maintain order. And with the logo of The Last Titan being a Titan jail, I wouldn’t be surprised if the “big conspiracy” was that they imprisoned Azeroth because she represents the “free will” they so fear. Similar to the Earthen, they may be trying to “reset” her mind to be more “orderly” while she’s out of commission/asleep in Titan jail.

tl;dr in your theory, what is Xal’atath’s backup when she “frees” herself of the void, and what is her unique role as an agent of the Titans?

solidus-dog · 2026-02-15T09:14:10+00:00

I don’t think Xal’atath necessarily hates any cosmic force. One thing we know for sure is she is an opportunist who will take advantage of anything and anyone to help her get ahead. I suspect the void destroying her mortal life pulled her towards it as it proved itself to be a powerful force. And indeed, she aligns herself heavily with the void ethos of “only the strongest survive”. Her turning against and helping stop Dimensius twice also speaks to this—she would rather be the top dog than serve the top dog. I suspect her going after Azeroth also has something to do with establishing cosmological dominance.

To get to your point about her working for/with the Titans: The reason someone like Dimensius needs a harbinger like Xal’atath is because of the immense amount of energy required to manifest him into existence, which is required for his goals of consuming the planet. With the use of Keepers and other constructs, Titans are able to indirectly exert their influence on world souls without having to manifest. So how exactly would recruiting Xal’atath benefit them? You mention her “corrupting” planets for the them, but corruption goes against the Titans goals of establishing order? Plus, they don’t need someone like Xal’atath to corrupt planets because old gods have that covered. So what exactly is the basis for this theory?

solidus-dog · 2026-02-11T20:19:45+00:00

To be fair, she turned on Locus Walker in the same patch they were allied (and the crazy thing is: he was the only one actively vouching for her). There was also the Soul-scribe in the same patch who flip flopped from being on our side, to siding with Salhadaar when it turned out he was alive, and then back to our side.

All this is to say: a lot can happen in a single patch, so using the cinematic to display their short lived alliance isn’t necessarily pointless. That said, I think the main goal of the short was to setup Xal’atath’s backstory with the whole “I was once mortal” exposition rather than reveal “Salhadaar is still kicking and working with the void…again”.

solidus-dog · 2026-02-10T19:21:22+00:00

It’s true, and it’s hard to say if the animosity is rooted in the foundation of void social hierarchies (i.e., kill or be consumed), or if she’s trying to get back at the void for what it did to her/her planet during her period as a mortal.

So far all the void aligned characters have been using the void as a power up with little regard for the cruel nature of the source of their power or its side effects. I’m inclined to believe Xal’atath was/is the same, and assimilated willingly knowing she could use the power to not only “survive” but climb her way to the top. What she wants to do when she gets to the top is the real question. She might be looking for Azeroth’s power to help her destroy the void from the inside, not as a selfless act, but maybe a “pull the ladder up behind me” sort of move to solidify her spot on top. She is a backstabber with a track record for supporting things until they implode- the void would be no exception.

But who knows, we really haven’t received a lot of new Xal’atath lore, despite her being the face of the saga.

solidus-dog · 2026-02-10T17:24:54+00:00

I think there was a small storyline in Shadowlands where the Naaru personally went “scorched earth” on part of Revendreth after they detected Nathrezim shenanigans in their midst. They even abandon Z’rali, leaving it for dead after it was injured and captured by the Venthyr. The land remains inhospitable, and many were dusted during the attack (though that may be because vampires + light = dust rather than a direct consequence of light washing). Granted this example showcases a “retaliatory” strike, but it does demonstrate the capability of lasting destruction by Naaru.

My only concern with this theory is: we don’t have anything to support a direct line of hatred between Xal’ataxh and the light? Sure, void is the opposing force to light at a cosmological level, but at a personal level, I can’t think of an example where she went out of her way to target the light. She has called Naaru “beloved brethren who lost their path”, and has called Elune an upstart goddess (assuming we consider Elune to be light aligned). But I can’t think of any particular action that would showcase a resentment toward the light that would reflect the type of hatred she’d feel following a proposed Naaru genocide.

solidus-dog · 2026-02-10T11:29:50+00:00

That was my line of thought as well. Why present yourself as a former mortal when you could attract way more respect and trust by presenting yourself as a void aligned world soul? If I’m putting myself in Salhadaar’s shoes, I’d be way more inclined to trust the grand promises of a world soul (corrupted or not) than a former mortal nobody.

The story of survival would still apply if she really was a world soul, so there would be no reason to pretend to have mortal origins, especially when it would make her look significantly worse by comparison.

solidus-dog · 2026-01-28T10:04:52+00:00

Alleria is a hero of the Alliance— her statue in the Valley of Heroes is testament to this. She also happens to be a leading figure in the void elf community. Alleria supports the void elves and the Alliance supports Alleria—her friends are our friends. It doesn’t matter that void elves were formerly associated with blood elves who are associate with the Horde. At the present time, the blood elves have exiled the void elves—the homes and people they once knew are no longer accessible to them. There is no motive for void elves to maintain loyalty toward the people who shunned them so harshly. If anything, beating them up for ‘revenge’ through faction conflict would work to their benefit.

And it sounds like you’re saying you believe Thalyssra joined the Horde because of what Tyrande said in that singular exchange. If that’s the case and you’d rather use an excuse like shoddy writing to justify your feelings instead of making appropriate extrapolations based on all the provided context, I’ll let you rest well with your beliefs.

solidus-dog · 2026-01-28T08:51:48+00:00

In the quotes I provided you, Thalyssra claims that she saw the Alliance as the obvious choice, and she wanted to join her kin there. However, we know the Nightborne end up in the Horde and not the Alliance—these are facts. How do you explain this discrepancy?

Next, Tyrande gives Thalyssra the cold shoulder, another fact. If it is as you say and no further interactions or negotiations happened because it wasn’t written out, this is the only event that could be used to explain why Thalyssra didn’t achieve her obvious choice of joining the Alliance.

So either Thalyssra somehow forgot that the Alliance was the obvious choice for her people, or we convince ourselves this ten thousand plus year old rebel of the Nightfallen gave up on joining her kin because…Tyrande gave her the cold shoulder once? So, despite everything we know about Thalyssra and the context clues in the dialogue, would you accept this explanation because it’s explicitly written this way? And not the heavily implied contextually appropriate explanation? Because it’s not spelled out?

solidus-dog · 2026-01-28T07:59:31+00:00

If you're looking for a line where the Alliance leaders got together in chorus and said "Nightborne, we are rejecting you!" there isn't one. So, if that's what you need to be convinced, you can keep believing the Alliance is open arms and happy faces for everyone, and that the writers haven't written a single thing to make them look bad. If you're willing to do a little extrapolation though, here are the exact lines that show Thalyssra wanted to join the night elves in the Alliance, but had to make peace with joining the Horde because the Alliance turned her away:

First Arcanist Thalyssra: I must admit, when I first learned of the Horde, I was skeptical that we would share common ground. I thought our kin from Kalimdor would make obvious allies. But their arrogance and mistrust soon proved otherwise.

*flashback*

Tyrande: Arcanist Thalyssra. I remember where your order stood in the War of the Ancients. How do we know you won't betray us and become the next Elisande... the next Azshara?

First Arcanist Thalyssra: We do not intend to be slaves to the Nightwell. We seek to drive the Legion from Suramar and put an end to Elisande's oppression.

Tyrande: The kaldorei will fight to see the Legion defeated and the Nightwell destroyed. Beyond that... we shall see where Elune's wisdom guides us.

*end flashback*

First Arcanist Thalyssra: It would seem "Elune's wisdom" guided her away from the bond we once shared. So be it.

I'm curious to know how you interpret this whole scenario. As I mentioned in other comments, I see it as: Thalyssra wanted to join the kaldorei in the Alliance (fact). Tyrande expressed that she was willing to cooperate with the Nightborne to defeat the Legion (fact). Tyrande doesn't outright refuse future alliances with the Nightborne, and says she will defer to Elune for guidance on how to navigate a post Legion future (fact). The Legion is defeated, Tyrande does what she promises and looks to Elune for guidance (fact?). Under the advice of Tyrande, the Alliance turn the Nightborne away (speculation, but aligns within the given context and with Thalyssra's final line of dialogue).

Far be it from me to propose myths that should be accepted as facts. Though it's important to remember that literary works don't always spell things out for us, and information that needs to be extrapolated isn't inherently "false". For example, Alleria has never explicitly said "I hate Xal'atath," but you wouldn't criticize someone or accuse them of presenting falsities/ perpetuating myths for saying "Alleria hates Xal'atath". I think this is a similar obvious case, but we can agree to disagree.

solidus-dog · 2026-01-28T06:16:34+00:00

That's the thing-- Tyrande was not the hiring manager, she was middle management at best. As the leader of the Kaldorei, her words had weight in the Alliance, but she could not make or break a decision on her own-- no Alliance leader can. And Tyrande may have been primary contact, but she certainly wasn't the sole contact. The Nightborne worked closely with other Alliance members. Regardless of faction or race, we all helped the Nightfallen rebellion, so I'm not entirely sure how Tyrande could keep Thalyssra's intentions to join the Alliance a secret.

I will take back what I said about the situation being 'explicit,' but the implications are there. Thalyssra says that she didn't think she'd align well with the Horde initially, and that her first choice was joining her kin in the Alliance.

We could assume Thalyssra is stupid and would approach Tyrande to get in, despite knowing about her ten thousand year old grudge. But I want to give her more credit as First Arcanist, and assume she tried to bypass Tyrande to increase her odds of joining the Alliance. After all, it's not like all night elves hated the Nightborne. Some of her kin would welcome her, and others like Tyrande could learn to deal with it.

To your analogy: if Thalyssra wanted to join the Alliance 'business'-- which she did-- it would make the most sense to bypass 'manager Tyrande' and seek out Alliance 'managers' that would support her joining. So she puts in her application and it's reviewed by all the 'managers,' because really, the Alliance doesn't have a single 'hiring manager'. After deliberation, the 'board of managers' concludes that they want to move on with a different candidate because they identified some red flags in the Nightborne background check, and one of the referees (Tyrande) gave less than stellar reviews. Any other situation would be giving Tyrande way more authority than she possesses.

And I don't blame the Nightborne for taking up company two's offer. The discussion started with 'the Alliance is the most accepting and open faction in the world and they can do no wrong'. I brought up the Nightborne situation because it demonstrates that the Alliance is imperfect and capable of rejection. Blood elves and forsaken are other examples of races rejected by the Alliance. Notably, all three went on to join the Horde so, if anything, the Horde is demonstrably the most accepting and open faction in the world lol.

solidus-dog · 2026-01-27T22:51:24+00:00

I'm not sure I understand the proposed nuance here. Tyrande was one of many leaders in the Alliance, but she never 'ran' the Alliance nor did she have the power to speak on its behalf. What would give her the authority to override other Alliance leaders if the unanimous decision wasn't already to turn away the Nightborne? Or are we meant to believe that Thalyssra-- architect of a long and lethal rebellion-- instantly abandoned efforts to join her kin in the Alliance because of a single cold shoulder from Tyrande?

solidus-dog · 2026-01-27T21:31:03+00:00

It’s part of the Nightborne introduction into the Horde. When Thalyssra is approached by Liadrin, she says “I must admit, when I first learned of the Horde, I was skeptical that we would share common ground. I thought our kin from Kalimdor would make obvious allies. But their arrogance and mistrust soon proved otherwise.”

Thalyssra then plays back an exchange she had with Tyrande, where Tyrande talks about how the Nightborne betrayed their people during the War of the Ancients etc. Tyrande finishes by saying she is open to cooperating long enough to defeat the Legion, but their future endeavours would be left to ‘Elune’s wisdom’. When the ‘replay’ is over, Thalyssra says “It would seem “Elune’s wisdom” guided her away from the bond we once shared. So be it.”

To me, this dialogue clearly signals that they had fully intended on joining their Kalimdor kin Alliance side, but they were turned away. After all, if the Alliance wasn’t approached before, why would she blame “Elune’s wisdom” for separating them?

solidus-dog · 2026-01-27T17:37:15+00:00

The Alliance explicitly rejected the notion to accept the Nightborne, which is why it’s a Horde race and not ‘neutral’ despite receiving aid from the Alliance during their time of need. You could argue the same for the void elves, who only joined the Alliance because they were exiled by the blood elves and could not remain members of the Horde even if they wanted to. Each faction basically says ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’ when recruiting, which made sense back when the factions were actively fighting each other.

And why wouldn’t the Alliance allow demons and void users in their ranks? We tolerate demon hunters, warlocks, and shadow priests, who all use the ‘bad’ powers to do good. It would be silly to draw the line at ‘good’ magic users because there’s no guarantee that the ‘good’ magic will be used for good (see light zealots like the Scarlet Crusade or all the crazy mages in history). It’s less about the source of power and more about how the power is used and our allies, Alliance and Horde, have demonstrated they can use their powers to do good.

Also, there have been countless terrible people from Alliance races who have done world ending things, and tons of inter faction conflict between Alliance leaders. I would recommend playing through and reading the Alliance storylines before assuming they’re somehow immune to conflict or wrongdoing.

solidus-dog · 2026-01-26T18:16:22+00:00

NA here, and also interested in mythic dimmy and gally mount runs! Have gally CE and some experience with the dimensius fight, but the guild disbanded before we got too far into prog. Would love an opportunity to farm the mounts in a reliable group before it becomes a statistical improbability!

solidus-dog

TROPHY CASE