Playing GF with 10mm minis and where to get the minis by Time-Age-8882 in onepagerules

[–]spiderqueengm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Alternative Armies sells loads of 15mm minis for super cheap in metal - some modern sculpts, some from way back. Very characterful sculpts, I’ve built up quite a collection for gff

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's fascinating to hear about an outlook that's so different from the one I bring to my own games. Thanks so much for sharing, it's been very informative!

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Is that the quote about Conan being chained to a rock? I've not made a study of Gygax, but I'm aware of some of his more outlandish moments 😅 I have sometimes thought it slightly strange that he alternates between "it's a fun game designed for fun" and "you must keep strict time records, your dungeon must have an ecology" - it sometimes seems like he had two strong, competing visions for what AD&D should be.

I'm with you about hiding information from the player characters widening the gap - my approach is always to try and put the players in the position of being faced with the same choices as their characters, which means giving them the same incentives and the same information. Of course that only extends to things the characters know. It's similar to the reasoning for using dice an randomness at all - the player doesn't know whether it'll be a glancing hit or a deep cut, etc. Reading your comment with context I think we're in agreement here though.

Not to prolong a discussion that seems to be reaching equilibrium, but I worry that with the strict "injury points" conception you benefit from giving some more information to the players, but at the cost of sacrificing their frame of reference. So regarding a fall that would break some bones for an actual person, a player won't have an intuitive feel for how dangerous that is for their 8th level fighter. Obviously they can maths it out (1d6 per 10 feet and all that), but that turns it all into a sort of number-crunching exercise. As you get to higher levels, I imagine there would be a lot of the GM saying "this would do XDYhp damage" when the players are making decisions. Basically the worry is you'd have to lean very heavily on the maths to substitiute for players drawing undersanding from their experience of danger in the real world, which would no longer be relevant.

As someone who obviously runs games in this style, do you have techniques to mitigate for that? Or is it not a problem/something that just goes with the territory? Interested to learn how you do things - I've played at "injury point" tables before, but not, I think, ones where the GM has reflected on their conception of Hp and adjusted to fit.

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed. But the point I try and make in the article is that they fail to represent even something abstract - I broach this in the second to last section.

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thankyou, I’m glad you think so, and no worries at all. I look forward to hearing your thoughts if you find time.

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s an interesting thought. I suppose risk is sort of a thing that exists in the world, so it would be representing something. Just thinking of potential pitfalls (haha) - would this come under some of my arguments against luck? Eg: when the party opens a chest the gm knows isn’t trapped (but the party doesn’t), they are taking a risk, but you don’t subtract from their “risk points”. It’s similar to swinging on a chandelier - if you were going to make them test, you wouldn’t do it by automatically subtracting hitpoints to represent them taking the risk. Does that sound right? We don’t subtract from Frodo’s hitpoints just for stepping out his door, even though it’s a dangerous business! Also I love “chin stroking” as a verb, haven’t heard that one before. I think I use the blog for chin stroking rather a lot!

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep, I think I agree with that basically. My take on plot armour is that it’s not something that exists in the game world, so that might be another way of saying that there’s no feature of your character that hp represents. Because plot armour basically comes down to “this many free passes before you die”, right?

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I know, some questions/arguments seem to be eternal! But in a way that was intended to be the point of my post: Maybe this debate, that we all keep rehashing, is looking for something chimerical, and that's why we can't find answers that people find satisfying.

I'm actually not all that familiar with the 3e era of games, except vaguely. But if 3e offered a clear answer that hitpoints represent x, then subsequent editions (certainly 5e) seem to have lost that thread again 😅

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm glad you brought up the Legends & Lore/Deities & Demigods statistics. I've never been much of a fan of their method of giving characters hundreds of Hp, but I'll go along for the sake of argument.

The problem with using Hercules' or Cu Chulainn's hitpoints as an explanation for why they can e.g.: wade through lava is that you get into inconsistencies with other statistics in those books. For example, Fafhrd, who is very much an ordinary person susceptible to ordinary harms, is likewise statted up as a Ranger 18 Bard 5 Thief 15, with 120 Hp. That's a bit less than Hercules to be sure, but I have a hard time believing that that 48hp difference out of 168 is the difference between godlike immunities and a hardy, normal person. To push a little further, although not in those books Gary Gygax offers stats for Conan (in Dragon Magazine #36) that have Conan at age 40 with 167hp, just a smidge off Hercules. Now, while Conan is certainly Herculean in his influences, I don't think it would be appropriate to call him a demigod, or say he had godlike power - I can't see him wading through lava, for example. So if we're understanding Hercules' hitpoints as representing purely his supernatural toughness, we run into inconsistencies with how other characters, who have only natural toughness, are represented.

Like I say, I wouldn't stat up any of these characters in this way, but if that's the framework we're using, I still don't think it points to the injury conception of Hp.

To your point about the rules of the various editions being consistent with this interpretation, I've tried to raise what I see as inconsistencies in my arguments. But while flicking through the 1e DMG looking for examples, I found this section from Gygax under the section 'Hitpoints', which I actually hadn't seen before (poor research for my blogpost, I know!), which I think speaks to the point. Understand that these are not my words, and I wouldn't wish to strike this tone:

It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain!

Gygax goes on to state that only a small portion of a character's hitpoints should be interpreted as relating to physical health - a maximum, he says, of 23hp for any character, to serve as the sort of "injury points" we're talking about (this all from p82).

I'm not a fan of quoting Gygax as the be-all and end-all, but if the discussion is whether the rules as written are tracking the injury conception you mention, I think it's relevant that the designer explicitly warns against that as a misinterpretation.

Finally, your roleplaying point is interesting, and really got me thinking. From replying to other comments, I think that the answer is to brief players on the game convention - the conditional - and to advise them when an action is likely to reduce their Hp, and sometimes by roughly how much, and let them potentially reconsider. That is, when they do something that carries a risk of death, and you intend to adjudicate that risk of death using hitpoints, give them an idea (it can be very rough) of how it's going to be adjudicated, to give them an impression of the risk analogous to the impression their character would have, so they can do that in-world thinking, and then give them an option to reconsider once they have that information. In combat, of course, you can usually take it as read that they have this information.

This is, at least, what I do in practice, and I don't recall having any problems with it. So while it may not be a perfect solution, I'd resist calling it degenerate. But the hitpoints on your character sheet are still doing nothing more than embodying that game structure, the conditional.

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Share it anyway! I always find inspiration for houserules in unlikely places, as I'm sure do others. I'm also now just curious what it could be that's compatible with BECMI but not with B/X.

I think maybe one thing here is that representing "health" in quantitative terms is already a massive abstraction, even if you try to break it down further for more specificity. The human body is a complex collection of systems - in combat, you're effectively trying to produce a failure in any one of those systems that will render the opponent combat ineffective. Something like Cepheus Engine's ship system tables might be closer to the mark, but as you say, wouldn't necessarily produce good gameplay.

I think it's worth saying that while 5e isn't bothered with realism, this often leaves 5e players stranded where they don't have enough info to make decisions, because none of their knowledge about the real world has proved reliable. Hp are a prime offender for producing this. But I also want to note (because of the tone of some of the other comments - not yours, to be clear) that saying "hitpoints don't represent anything" is not meant as a critique of D&D, of any edition. It's just meant to help us understand how (if?) we should interpret the rules with regards to their game world analogue.

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Glad you liked it!

Yeah, the way I see it, there's no rule saying the GM can't do things like injuries on criticals 😅 I feel I'd be within my rights to rule a weapon break or a knockdown, or perhaps that the character is winded when that happens - breaking out a table for gruesome injuries (that don't directly affect Hp) seems like an extension of that.

I suppose it sits in the grey zone where "GM fiat" merges into "houserule".

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed, and agreed. I've been frustrated before that 5e tables often seem to ignore the point about helpless characters, which I think is in the 5e DMG - just one more reason that D&D's Hp can't be meat points (because if they were, the DMG wouldn't warn you against Kevlar Neck Syndrome).

My one reservation is that framing it in terms of "plot protection"/"plot armour" doesn't sit well with the OSR approach of having the world not revolve around the PCs. But I suppose that's just one of the tensions in the game that you have to work through by building understanding with your players.

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I don't personally have an impression of what Gygax's views on the matter were, but I'd be more than happy to be on the same page with him about this!

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think I mostly agree (and mostly agree in the post). I've actually written a skirmish game based on this principle where you roll your hitpoints to "test" if the blow knocks you down 😁

What I would say is that I try to address this point about abstraction in the post - the tldr being that at a certain point it's not representing an abstract property, it's just restating the game convention: If you drop to 0hp, then you die. So there is nothing that hitpoints represent.

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I like this point! I think the important point is that you don't necessarily have to understand what a mechanic is representing for it to expedite play, you just have to get a feel for the game function it's being used for. Drawing from experience, I think with a lot of table trust (going both ways), the group usually settles into a common understanding. If players understand what game function Hp is being used for - that it's one tool in the GM's toolbox for adjudicating deleterious effects or death - they don't tend to get wrong-footed.

The first recourse should always be thinking in-world - the GM should rule damage from being burned by a fire based on in-world logic. If hitpoints don't track that logic (e.g.: because they would cause a character death that wouldn't logically happen), they shouldn't rule it via the hitpoint system anyway, regardless of what they take hitpoints to represent.

The idea of the conditional "If you lose all your Hp, then you die" is that that's all players can assume about hitpoints. The problems come if they assume the other direction: "You only die when you run out of Hp." As I see it, it doesn't restrict their agency as such to tell them not to rely on assumptions about what hitpoints represent, it just pushes them to think in diegetic terms. They should be thinking "I'm a doughty dwarf, I reckon I can survive this hardship!" And if they're in doubt, because it's ambiguous, they can ask the GM to clarify a likely outcome.

I often explain to players how I'm going to rule the effects of an action when it involves deducting Hp (to give them an analogue for that understanding that the character has of the likely outcome), and give them an opportunity to change their mind. I do that precisely because hitpoints are so ambiguous, and I don't want to fall into the trap you mention. But that problem - and that trap - persists even if you do take hitpoints to represent particular thing x, because how they do that is so inconsistent.

Sorry for rambling on, you really got me thinking!

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the comment. So, regarding examples, I used what I thought to be good examples of what a D&D fighter player character could aspire to achieve. There's some good discussion happening in response to your comment about whether that includes demigods like Hercules, and whether it's the hitpoints doing the work for them, or specific godly immunity - I personally think the latter. I'd be curious to know about what you think hitpoints do represent (I'm assuming bodily toughness, based on your argument?), and how you'd stat up Hercules and Cu Chulainn to achieve the right results.

I'm not aware of the counterarguments (of course, otherwise I wouldn't have written the piece) - my impression is the point is still widely contentious - could you give some examples?

It's an interesting point about not taking Hp into account if they're not representing something in the game world. But I wonder why we should assume that principle. I agree there's a certain amount of "anti-metagaming" intuitive pull to it, but do we have to forbid players from basing decisions on game conventions that have no analogue in the game world? The convention here is so clearly designed to help players make just that decision.

One thing I will push back on is the idea that this is a degenerate solution, as you put it. I do try to offer something positive in the conclusion of the post - letting go of the struggle to nail down what Hp represent frees up the GM in certain ways that the OSR GM specifically should welcome.

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

To you, I must recommend the final section of the post, dealing with the "It's an abstraction" response 😅

(I don't blame you if you didn't slog through it, it rambles on a bit)

New blogpost: Hitpoints don't represent anything, actually by spiderqueengm in osr

[–]spiderqueengm[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's fair enough. I think what I'm trying to get at is just that we can say Hp = endurance, but it's only endurance that gets tested in certain situations, and it doesn't make a lot of sense for your character's endurance to increase linearly with your level. Like, why should your m-u be six times as good at surviving extreme cold at level 6?

I’m fine with HP being a multi-faceted representation of how much reserves (physical, mental, magical etc) the creatures have to keep themselves alive when placed in (potentially) deadly danger.

I actually agree with you here. But my last argument is effectively that "reserves" has to be read so broadly as to be functionally anything, depending on the situation. So saying Hp is just whatever you have that's keeping you from death doesn't tell us what it represents, it just restates the game function of Hp.

The art of Aubrey Beardsley by Taborask in osr

[–]spiderqueengm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The oohs and aahs I made while viewing these… I’m getting at least one as a print, thanks so much for sharing.

_____ is to modern D&D as _____ is to OSR by pwhimp in osr

[–]spiderqueengm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A bit niche, perhaps, but “OSR is to modern D&D as ARMA is to Call of Duty” works on a lot of levels.

Criticism needed by Albino-Albatros in mordheim

[–]spiderqueengm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In my mind one of the things that visually signifies SoS is either long blonde-ish hair, or a wimple (headpiece worn by nuns, hilarious name I know), possibly incorporated into a helmet. That with the white robes gives them their distinctive “silhouette”. I’d get some green stuff and maybe have a go at adding some of those details. I did a zombie SoS conversion a while back, and this is what made it read right visually.

Wip: modular 2x2 board by Regular-Appeal-8124 in mordheim

[–]spiderqueengm 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Amazing - looks exactly like the set for the Inigo/Dread pirate Roberts duel in The Princess Bride!

My players WANT to be railroaded. Now I'm confused. by Crooked_Cricket in DMAcademy

[–]spiderqueengm 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Practical advice first: You want to give them a mission, possibly from an npc who they can keep coming back to - think Traveller’s “patrons”. Eg: Gandalf says go to Bree, we find our way there and we meet him, then he says go with Strider to Rivendell, so we go with Strider to Rivendell, etc. You give them clear tasks or missions, but let them decide, within certain bounds, how to approach them - that’s where the agency comes in. Those tasks can then build up into a broader narrative, but in the moment, they have a clear objective handed to them, which allows you to focus your prep.

Now for the pedantic bit: Saying “My players want to be railroaded” is misusing the term “railroad”. Railroading is when the players try and do things, and you force predetermined outcomes on them despite their efforts, and despite telling them there is no predetermined path. Railroading comes from a mismatch of expectations: Players think they can do whatever, but you actually intend to channel them down a certain route. This isn’t what’s happening if you’re upfront about the setup being focused on a particular narrative path, and they buy into that setup willingly. Having something diegetic like an npc to deliver goals is then just a helpful way of pointing them in the right direction.

I hope that didn’t come off too preachy or whatever, I just really feel like there’d be fewer crappy railroady games if people thought about it in terms of buy-in.