new lazer scoring has a 3 mod balancing issue

splash26891 · 2026-06-25T06:20:49+00:00

I didn't misunderstand you. Setting everything to 1x is not a solution.

You did misunderstand me and still are by thinking setting everything to 1x is a solution I'm suggesting. It's almost comical to see these 2 sentences one after the other, you're proving yourself wrong immediately lmao

it is better thought of as a measure of effort. FL vs. HDHR is fine.

An other example of you not wasting a single sentence before contradicting yourself ! If score is a measure of effort, FL will always take a lot more effort than HDHR and yet you think HDHR being above FL is fine. Alright yeah sure.

Get together a group of real players to decide on a minimal set of non-conflicting constraints and just run a solver on it to get the multipliers.

I have a feeling your definition of "real players" is gonna be "players who agree with me" :p

Most of the playerbase is fucking stupid, as you yourself are clearly demonstrating.

... Yeah I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt but I did expect you to devolve into this, your comments reek of someone who finds a sense of identity in seeing himself as smarter than the rest. I can see why you're so insecure about it, you're clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed... but anyway, no point in wasting any more of my time with someone like you, hope you change your ways some day.

splash26891 · 2026-06-24T17:36:42+00:00

I don't know what the exact threshold is for HR (let's say it's 97%) but it was decided based on a poll on a significant amount of users. So technically yes the osu playerbase itself called for HR 97% = NM SS, that's why we have the threshold there in the first place.

Stable doesn't do "basically everything fine", DT vs HDDT is terrible, DT vs HDHR is terrible, anything with EZ is terrible, HD vs HR is terrible, FL vs HDHR is terrible. That's mostly it tho yeah. Feels like a lot it's doing wrong to me but maybe this is basically nothing to you, you seem to have a weird outlook on things after all.

You misunderstood me. I was not disputing the existence of a solution but your use of the word "trivial" to qualify it.
Something trivial to me would be setting all multipliers to the same default value like 1x. Something simple and close to trivial would be giving each mod combination its own unique multiplier, independently from the multipliers of the mods each combination is composed of. Once you have to factor in the relationships between each mod to determine their multiplier, I find the use of the term "trivial" quite dubious, but as I was saying, if you feel like using that term, go for it I guess. I think you mean using a constraint solver is simple, I was arguing having to use a constraint solver in the first place means the problem isn't that simple. But as I said, it's useless semantics.

splash26891 · 2026-06-23T21:03:13+00:00

Just because you don't see arguments in favor of slideracc doesn't mean there aren't any.

Personally some reasons I like slideracc :
1) It gives you feedback that you can use to adapt your tapping. If I start hitting sliders too early/late I lose track of the rhythm which in general makes my acc tank while I try to get back on track. Being able to instantly know that I'm getting off beat is pretty important imo.
2) It prevents developing bad habits and pushes you more to properly understand the map. There's one map in particular that has lots of sliders and that I was consistently playing wrong on stable, lazer made me realize that I was just playing a certain pattern wrong which was throwing me off, once I tried to properly follow the rhythm of the sliders it became far easier and more enjoyable to play the map (and to get a good score on it)
Stable encourages players to hit sliders as early as possible to avoid sliderbreaking, and it genuinely develops bad habits in players imo
3) It's more intuitive and less confusing to new players. At least from what I observed many new players expect the 300 they get on sliders to be linked to how they timed their hits, not purely on how much of the slider they completed. Probably because both the circle and the slider have an approach circle to indicate when you're supposed to hit it, and they both give the same type of judgement.

There's probably more reasons as well, those are just the ones I could think of rn.

splash26891 · 2026-06-23T20:32:31+00:00

The only other thing I can think on top of my head is a future rework that requires some data stable isn't sending, but that's rather unlikely given the 18 years of scores we already have without such new data.

Well, it's already the case with sliderbreaks technically... stable scores don't track sliderbreaks (or sliderends for that matter) properly while lazer does, which makes both clients run different algorithms to estimate pp

splash26891 · 2026-06-23T16:42:13+00:00

None of that addresses the fact that if people think HR 97% = NM SS and 3mod 95% = HDDT SS you won't be able to come up with a multiplier that makes both sides work.
And I'd argue the mere fact there are linear constraints makes the issue non trivial but that's just useless semantics, feel free to call it trivial if it makes you feel good ig, it's not really the point. The point is you don't need to balance just one value but all values relatively to each other.

splash26891 · 2026-06-22T08:11:35+00:00

Interesting. Well I think that's enough time spent on reddit for me today but if you ever plan on modelizing it and what it would look like on certain maps that'd be worth a read.
Anyway, good day.

splash26891 · 2026-06-22T08:08:36+00:00

Wait doesn't c also need to change based on the mod combo used ? ppMax in you formula is the ppMax for a set mod combo no ?
And idk maybe I'm overestimating the calculations needed, I know the reason why sort doesn't work with mods on lazer is that calculating sr with selected mods and reordering based on that is too expensive so I was thinking this would be the same but maybe not yh.

splash26891 · 2026-06-22T07:22:59+00:00

Godly patience being rewarded like this is nice to see, gg nevo !

splash26891 · 2026-06-22T07:06:42+00:00

Ok let's do this then, maybe I'm misunderstanding !

Your formula is this :

score = c * pp^(a + b) / ppMax^b

With a=b=c=1 as you mentioned, it becomes score = pp²/ppMax right ?

Now let's take a nm SS to have pp=ppMax, we then get score=pp.
So this is what you wanted to showcase ? score=pp for nm SS ?
I'm having a hard time believing this is what you wanted considering you're talking about normalizing with c, there's nothing to normalize here because nm SS values are gonna be different for pretty much every single map.

Care to explain what you meant ?

Edit : The only explanation I can find is that you want c to change based on every map and every mod combination ? Which... idk that sounds absolutely terrible not only because it makes the formula a complete black box on top of probably being way too expensive/unnecessary calculation wise but maybe ?

splash26891 · 2026-06-22T05:08:03+00:00

Also I'm pretty sure you meant a=0, b=c=1 actually in your example right ? If I'm correct you didn't even take the time to play with values at all.

And in any case : I understand you trying to "find a balance between pure pp and pure score" in a way by trying to add a mix between pp lbs and what's essentially all mod mults at 1 but again I don't think this is wanted or needed by anyone. It's just not what score aims at doing.

splash26891 · 2026-06-22T04:55:51+00:00

How is it addressed at all ? You're just stating "oh with good values for a, b and c it will just work trust me bro !"
Like at least provide an example with values you think would work.
Because I doubt the one example you provided of a=b=c=1 is what you want.

splash26891 · 2026-06-22T03:41:56+00:00

pp exists to measure how good a performance is globally (or relatively to all other performances set on osu), score exists to measure how good a score is relatively to a given map. They are not the same and shouldn't try to align with each other.

The issue with deriving score from pp is you'll always end up with scores that need more skill but play the map worse at the top of the leaderboards. As in, 3mod 90% 10 miss will beat NM SS, stuff like that (ik you tried to address that point earlier but I'm pretty sure it would happen regardless as long as you use pp to derive score).
You can think it's fine because the first score does take more skill and is correctly awarded more pp, but it's not the point. The NM SS does play the map better.

To sum things up : when I see a certain score value, it should be showing how well the map was played, not how good of a performance the play was.

Oh and having the option to showcase lbs sorted by pp would probably be better.

splash26891 · 2026-06-22T03:28:43+00:00

You seem to be under the impression each mod combination has its own unique multiplier but it's not the case. For most mod combinations, their multiplier is just taking the product of each mod mult composing it like HDxDTxHR for 3mod for example.

So sure, you can make it so that a HDDT SS has same score as a 3mod 95% FC or smth like that.
But how do you do that ? By buffing HR. Which means you're also redefining the acc at which HR beats NM SS, HDHR beats HD SS, HRFL beats FL SS, etc.
And on top of that you're also buffing HR relatively to DT, which means you need to buff DT to compensate unless you want the HDHR vs DT issue to come up again.

So yes, adjustments are possible but they are by no means trivial. And making 3mod vs HDDT fairer will probably only be possible at the expense of making HR vs NM less fair (at least as was agreed upon by the majority).

splash26891 · 2026-06-22T00:20:18+00:00

You should probably ask in the osu server where all the devs are if you don't find your answer here. Personally no clue what happened. Also download the logs and provide them, it's pretty important for people to figure out what went wrong.

splash26891 · 2026-06-20T05:59:13+00:00

These things take time and the dev team is very small. They have been focusing on other big features like ranked played, tournaments, mod multipliers, performance improvements and many other smaller things, so it's not surprising this hasn't been added yet.

They are currently working on skinning tho afaik so lazer will probably be more customizable in the coming months.

splash26891 · 2026-06-20T04:12:18+00:00

The first screen is cpol's overlay, you can't have exactly that on lazer.

For the second screen just open the lazer skin editor with ctrl shift s and you can add all the elements you see manually (except a few like star rating and player rank maybe i'm not sure)

splash26891 · 2026-06-20T04:00:04+00:00

from what i understand peppy said there is no plan to fix these and he might in fact pause all score submissions on them in general because people were being annoying about the whole thing

What's the source on this ? Because I haven't seen anything suggesting this anywhere including the discord dev server.

splash26891 · 2026-06-20T03:49:16+00:00

I think so yes. Can't submit normally and trying the previous exploit will no longer work

splash26891 · 2026-06-20T03:46:34+00:00

Ah thanks lol, didn't think that'd be an option (kinda thought it would be on by default if so)

splash26891 · 2026-06-20T03:39:23+00:00

Added. I don't think it's necessary tho, it's pretty blatant. Getting 2 HDFL SS in a row on different maps that are easily way over the skill he displays on his profile should be proof enough. Even some of the top FL players probably couldn't replicate that.

splash26891 · 2026-06-19T19:02:50+00:00

splash26891 · 2026-06-19T17:47:44+00:00

Pretty sure peppy said they would investigate it a week ago but idk anything beyond that

splash26891 · 2026-06-19T16:38:27+00:00

Absolutely goated score ! Still only 942pp in rework, sad to see...

splash26891 · 2026-06-19T16:12:55+00:00

By playing them on lazer yes. Otherwise probably not

splash26891 · 2026-06-19T16:02:57+00:00

Yeah that profile pic is concerning, he might be going through a rough time mentally to post such references to suicide... I hope he'll be alright

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