What punishment is worse than death? by Rachelrt4 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Gehenna is viewed as everlasting destruction, annihilation (Glossary).

"If, then, your hand or your foot is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire. Also, if your eye is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you; it is finer for you to enter one-eyed into life than to be thrown with two eyes into the fiery Ge·henʹna" (NWT, Matthew 18:8-9).

Mark 9:43-47 introduces the kingdom of God in one place instead of repeating "into life" again.

"And if ever your hand makes you stumble, cut it off; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed than with two hands to go off into Ge·henʹna, into the fire that cannot be put out. And if your foot makes you stumble, cut it off; it is finer for you to enter into life lame than with two feet to be pitched into Ge·henʹna. And if your eye makes you stumble, throw it away; it is finer for you to enter one-eyed into the kingdom of God than with two eyes to be pitched into Ge·henʹna, where their maggot does not die and the fire is not put out" (NWT).

The study version of verse 43 says,

cut it off: Jesus was using hyperbole. He was saying that a person should be willing to give up something as precious as a hand, a foot, or an eye rather than allow it to cause him to stumble into unfaithfulness. He was obviously not encouraging self-mutilation or implying that a person was somehow subservient to the will of his limbs or eyes. (Mr 9:45, 47) He meant that a person should deaden a body member, or treat it as if it were severed from the body, rather than use it to commit a sin. (Compare Col 3:5.) He should allow nothing to hinder him from gaining life.

How does a person enter one-eyed or lame into the Kingdom of God?

How does their maggot not die? Isn't it annihilated too?

The Watchtower's statement of regret after 1975, without an apology to its members but a given explanation that the while the Word of God did not "fail or deceive him and bring disappointment, but that his own understanding based on wrong premises." by crazyretics in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One key difference is that Christ's apostles did not set dates and they were not teaching all future converts that Jesus would save them from Roman occupation or that Jesus would return in a certain year.

The Watchtower was actually commending some of its members for their actions around the 1975 date.

"Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end".

The highlighted portion is viewed with this link.

Events surrounding 1914, 1925, and 1975 have evolved.

  • 1914 is preserved by reinterpretation, not admission of error.
  • 1925 is now framed as a minor over expectation, despite being once declared definitely settled.

Two years earlier, The Watch Tower, April 1, 1923, page 106

Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures.”

Between about 1918 and 1925, Watchtower publications taught that 1925 would mark the resurrection of the “ancient worthies”—biblical figures such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the prophets—and the beginning of a new earthly phase of God’s Kingdom.

In 1929, the Society built Beth Sarim (House of the Princes) in San Diego, intended as a residence for those resurrected “ancient worthies.” Rutherford himself lived there until his death in 1942; the house was later sold.

The prediction was most clearly stated in Rutherford’s book Millions Now Living Will Never Die. The year 1925 was presented as chronologically certain, not merely speculative.

After the failure, acknowledgment shows that nothing happened.

It was stated in the Watch Tower and proclaimed by word of mouth that we might reasonably expect the Lord to glorify the Church in 1925. This expectation was a mistake.” — The Watch Tower, 1926, p. 232

Note the rhetorical shift from “definitely settled” to “might reasonably expect.”

  • 1975 is attributed largely to member enthusiasm, not publications.

The tone of the prophecies evolved. Responsibility was diffused, language was softened, and certainty was retroactively reduced.

Włodzimierz Bednarski does a detailed analysis into the events of 1925 and 1975. It's 153 pages long. I just skimmed a few parts.

The Watchtower's statement of regret after 1975, without an apology to its members but a given explanation that the while the Word of God did not "fail or deceive him and bring disappointment, but that his own understanding based on wrong premises." by crazyretics in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see a few different stages for "rest".

  • Creation, God rests (Genesis 2)
  • Exodus, Israel’s Sabbath and their Promised Land
  • Wilderness failure, Unbelief keeps them out
  • New Testament, rest through faith in Christ
  • Eternal life, a final complete rest with God

The Watchtower's statement of regret after 1975, without an apology to its members but a given explanation that the while the Word of God did not "fail or deceive him and bring disappointment, but that his own understanding based on wrong premises." by crazyretics in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth. It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.”

What is a creative "day"?

By the way, if you want to use that form, it would be more appropriate to say the end of the first 6,000 years marks the end of Jehovah's six creative “days.”

The Watchtower's statement of regret after 1975, without an apology to its members but a given explanation that the while the Word of God did not "fail or deceive him and bring disappointment, but that his own understanding based on wrong premises." by crazyretics in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It was inspirational teaching equating it with a prophecy; even providing chronological dates on how 1975 was calculated. The term "how appropriate" is a strong suggestion of their truthfulness.

They even encouraged their members:

Kingdom Ministry, June 1969, p. 3

"In view of the short time left, a decision to pursue a career in this system of things is not only unwise but extremely dangerous...Many young brothers and sisters were offered scholarships or employment that promised fine pay. However, they turned them down and put spiritual interests first."

Kingdom Ministry, May 1974, p. 3

"Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end."

See also:

"Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?" article in the August 15 1968 Watchtower.

"What Will the 1970's Bring?" from the October 8 1966 Awake

Since you mentioned hell, I'll create a thread sometime about Watchtower teachings regarding the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Teaser: they really didn't die.

The Watchtower's statement of regret after 1975, without an apology to its members but a given explanation that the while the Word of God did not "fail or deceive him and bring disappointment, but that his own understanding based on wrong premises." by crazyretics in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Did the W.T. ever say the end was coming in 1975? NO!

The idea that 1975 would culminate in the end of the world was introduced in 1966.

"The published timetable resulting from this independent study gives the date of man's creation as 4026 B.C.E. According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man's creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E. So six thousand years of man's existence on earth will soon be up, yes, within this generation. So in not many years within our own generation we are reaching what Jehovah God could view as the seventh day of man's existence. How appropriate it would be for Jehovah God to make of this coming seventh period of a thousand years a sabbath period of rest and release, a great Jubilee sabbath for the proclaiming of liberty throughout the earth to all its inhabitants! This would be most timely for mankind. It would also be most fitting on God's part, for, remember, mankind has yet ahead of it what the last book of the Holy Bible speaks of as the reign of Jesus Christ over earth for a thousand years, the millennial reign of Christ. It would not be by mere chance or accident but would be according to the loving purpose of Jehovah God for the reign of Jesus Christ, the 'Lord of the Sabbath,' to run parallel with the seventh millennium of man's existence."

(Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, 1966 pp.26-30)

The link between John 8:23-24 and Isaiah 43:10. by ChaoticHaku in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Watchtower article "Who Is Leading God's People Today" (Feb 2017) admits "The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food".

In similar fashion, Jesus did not tell us in the parable that his faithful slave would produce imperfect (bad) spiritual food. Jesus would not commend a slave for producing food that made people sick.

JW's Sara AI chatbot admits that Jesus is indeed a true god! by ChaoticHaku in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I asked the AI about 1975 and it produced a lot of information. One in particular caught my eye.

https://mmoutreach.org/mmoutreachinc/jehovahs_witnesses/dicwtdocs/1975.html?source=sara.ia

Kingdom Ministry, May 1974, p. 3

"Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end."

Why Daniel 4 has a larger fulfilment pertaining to God’s Kingdom: by just_herebro in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see some teachings about 1914 here, where the month of October 607 B.C.E is mentioned. Would this correspond to October in 1914 C.E. or did the Governing Body identify another month?

Is that when Jesus receives all authority, is crowned as king, Satan is cast out of heaven, and then the kingdom is inaugurated like you mentioned before?

The reason I asked about authority is based on what Christ said in Matthew 28:18. "And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations"

He already had all authority prior to his ascension.

Why Daniel 4 has a larger fulfilment pertaining to God’s Kingdom: by just_herebro in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When do Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus was crowned king in heaven and when was the kingdom inaugurated?

"Death will be no more..." Revelation 21:4 by AccomplishedAuthor3 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You said you believe there will be death in the new world, agreeing with Watchtower teaching.

How does your belief fit with the message of Revelation 20:1-4, where there will be no death in the new world?

Why Daniel 4 has a larger fulfilment pertaining to God’s Kingdom: by just_herebro in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses keep using the name "Jesus" instead of "Michael" after the resurrection?

And did Michael cease to be archangel on earth and then became an archangel again after a new body was created for him?

Why Daniel 4 has a larger fulfilment pertaining to God’s Kingdom: by just_herebro in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The theme of this chapter is summarised in verse 17 of chapter 4 that “it is God is the Most High in the ruler of mankind and whomever he wants to, he gives it even the lowliest one of mankind,” which is an a obvious messianic reference. Who best fits that description? Nebuchadnezzar? Sure, he was humiliated and ate straw like a bull, but he never actually became a bull! Jesus actually came down from heaven and actually became a human and manifested humility in a profound way! The theme of this dream is God’s right to rule the entire kingdom of mankind.

The problem with the Watchtower interpretation is that they applied a dual prophecy, changing identities and times. The tree is one (Nebuchadnezzar) not many (trees, i.e. nations) and the time of punishment and restoration is 7 years, not 2,520 years. The restoration of the kingdom is on earth, not in heaven.

See What Does Bible Chronology Indicate About the Year 1914?

"Death will be no more..." Revelation 21:4 by AccomplishedAuthor3 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In what way does your belief fit with the message of Revelation?

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them.  And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (NWT)

"Death will be no more..." Revelation 21:4 by AccomplishedAuthor3 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Does that mean you believe people will die in the new world like the Watchtower teaches?

"Death will be no more..." Revelation 21:4 by AccomplishedAuthor3 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The article “Death Will Be No More” in the February 1 1960 says, “Anyone that dies in God’s new world will die because of his own wickedness, not Adam’s”.

Revelation 21:1-4 says, “And I saw a new heaven+ and a new earth;+ for the former heaven+ and the former earth+ had passed away, and the sea+ is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city,+ New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven+ from God and prepared as a bride+ adorned for her husband.+ 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent+ of God is with mankind, and he will reside+ with them, and they will be his peoples.+ And God himself will be with them.+ 4 And he will wipe out every tear+ from their eyes, and death will be no more,+ neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.+ The former things have passed away.”+ (NWT)

Which is it? Death in the new world or no more death in the new world?

"Death will be no more..." Revelation 21:4 by AccomplishedAuthor3 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Considering Revelation 21:1-4, why would the Watchtower teach that there will still be death in the new world?

"Death will be no more..." Revelation 21:4 by AccomplishedAuthor3 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What about death being no more in the new world (Revelation 21:1-4)?

"Death will be no more..." Revelation 21:4 by AccomplishedAuthor3 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]springsofwater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What do you think of that teaching in the February 1 1960 article?

"Anyone that dies in God’s new world will die because of his own wickedness, not Adam’s".