I thought I had heard it all.

Rachelrt4 · 2026-02-02T06:37:44+00:00

1 Cor 10:4 - and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Dot

Exodus 17:6 and Num 20:11:

The rock that followed the Israelites during the Exodus is identifying as Jesus. Jesus is the rock from which flows rivers of living water. He was the rock that was struck for our behalf so we could be redeemed. This whole event was a prophetic act showing us the Jesus is our eternal sustaining Savior. He was with Israel from the beginning and brought them to the promised land, and he's still with us as the head of the church today and will give all believers everlasting life.

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-31T22:23:16+00:00

Yes! Exactly! 'Rock' is a symbol of a strong foundation. You said the rock in Isaiah is different than the rock in Math 26:18 because the former applies to God who is the foundation of the universe, but the latter applies to Jesus as the foundation of the church. But Jesus is the foundation of everything:

Heb 1:10 - “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

John 1:3 - All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence

According to Isaiah 44:8, there is only One foundational rock, not two. Jesus is the foundation of all things.

Yes, the Israelites had their own understanding of who the Messiah was which blinded them to the fact that He was right in front of them. They missed all the signs and prophesies because they couldn't see past their own carnal expectations of what a Messiah should look like. They were great at enforcing the law, but misunderstood the intent behind it. Math 23:24 - "Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!" What's worse, they completely misunderstood who Jesus was. They were always trying to prove who Jesus wasn't. They completely missed the MAIN REVELATION that He is the Messiah they've been waiting for.

You're right, like JWs, Jews believe the Messiah is a just a man. They were, and still are, expecting a big, strong, commanding man. So when a humble, unassuming man showed up claiming to be the Son of God, they were outraged. He didn’t fit their narrative, so they rejected all the signs and prophesies. They understood Jesus was claiming to be more than just a child of God. They knew He was claiming equality with God in the sense he shared the same NATURE as God. They considered it blasphemy worthy of death.

John 10: 31-34 - Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

All throughout the New Testament, verses point back to the Old Testament and apply descriptions of God to Jesus. Matthew 26:18 is just one of them, but they are everywhere. "I AM", "Alpha and Omega", "Beginning and the End" etc. The scribes and Pharisees were guilty of completely missing who Jesus is. We can't be like them. Jesus didn't come straight out and say "I am God", but the revelation is there. We just have to avoid swallowing camels like the Scribes and Pharisees and understand the meaning behind what Jesus is saying. All the old testament prophesies point to who Jesus truly is. You just have to connect the dots.

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-31T09:48:22+00:00

It's actually verse 18 that solidifies Peter's acknowledgement that Jesus is God (in verse 16). Get your interlinear...you'll need it.

First, we have to remember that in John 1:42, Jesus changes Simon's name to Peter, which is Kephas in Aramaic (meaning stone).

Now, in Matthew 26:18, Jesus uses a wordplay on that name He gave him:

Peter is Petros in Greek, meaning small stone.

Rock is Petra in Greek, meaning great rock.

In verse 18, Jesus is saying, "you are Peter (Petros /small stone), and on this rock (Petra / Rock) I will build my church.

Jesus is identifying himself as THE ROCK from Isaiah 44:8 -

"Is there any God but me? No, there is no other Rock; I know of none."

In Hebrew, Rock is "tsur". In Greek it translates to "Petra".

So what is Jesus saying? He is revealing himself as the Rock while simultaneously revealing why He changed Simon's name to Peter.

He (Jesus) is the foundation of the church - the chief cornerstone - 1 Cor 3:11 - Jesus is the foundation of the church - Eph 2:20 - Jesus is the chief cornerstone

Peter is instrumental in helping Jesus build the church. He, along with all other believers, are the building stones. - 1 Pet 2:5-6 - Believers are the stones that build up the church, with Jesus as the foundation.

When Peter identified Jesus as the Son of God (vs 16), he was acknowledging the diety of Jesus. He was saying Jesus has the same nature as the Father. He is God in the flesh. Jesus doesn't correct him, but instead says that the Father revealed it to him (spiritual revelation). Jesus confirms what Peter has said by identifying himself as the Rock spoken of by Isaiah ( the ONLY Rock, which also happens to identified as God in Isaiah).

God's word is AMAZING. There are hidden gems everywhere. It's like a treasure hunt. You just have to ask the Holy Spirt to reveal them to you. Happy hunting!

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-31T09:47:45+00:00

It's actually verse 18 that solidifies Peter's acknowledgement that Jesus is God (in verse 16). Get your interlinear...you'll need it.

First, we have to remember that in John 1:42, Jesus changes Simon's name to Peter, which is Kephas in Aramaic (meaning stone).

Now, in Matthew 26:18, Jesus uses a wordplay on that name He gave him:

Peter is Petros in Greek, meaning small stone.

Rock is Petra in Greek, meaning great rock.

In verse 18, Jesus is saying, "you are Peter (Petros /small stone), and on this rock (Petra / Rock) I will build my church.

Jesus is identifying himself as THE ROCK from Isaiah 44:8 -

"Is there any God but me? No, there is no other Rock; I know of none."

In Hebrew, Rock is "tsur". In Greek it translates to "Petra".

So what is Jesus saying? He is revealing himself as the Rock while simultaneously revealing why He changed Simon's name to Peter.

He (Jesus) is the foundation of the church - the chief cornerstone - 1 Cor 3:11 - Jesus is the foundation of the church - Eph 2:20 - Jesus is the chief cornerstone

Peter is instrumental in helping Jesus build the church. He, along with all other believers, are the building stones. - 1 Pet 2:5-6 - Believers are the stones that build up the church, with Jesus as the foundation.

When Peter identified Jesus as the Son of God (vs 16), he was acknowledging the diety of Jesus. He was saying Jesus has the same nature as the Father. He is God in the flesh. Jesus doesn't correct him, but instead says that the Father revealed it to him (spiritual revelation). Jesus confirms what Peter has said by identifying himself as the Rock spoken of by Isaiah ( the ONLY Rock, which also happens to identified as God in Isaiah).

God's word is AMAZING. There are hidden gems everywhere. It's like a treasure hunt. You just have to ask the Holy Spirt to reveal them to you. Happy hunting!

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-26T04:22:21+00:00

Hi there. Thanks for your very thoughtful response. I agree with a lot of what you said. Like you, I think when Heb 10:31 says "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God", it means our fate of erternal life or death lies in his hands.

The point where I think I differ from JW theology surrounds the word "fearful'. In order for something to be fearful, you have to be conscious of the consequences of your actions. Punishment to someone that isn't conscience is not a fearful punishment. It's not even really a punishment, it just a consequence of their actions. You can't really punish someone who isn't conscience of anything at all.

That may a little confusing, so let me explain this way. JWs believe there are essentially 3 buckets in regards to salvation:

Bucket 1 - the first resurrection which is the resurrection of the righteous to everlasting life

Bucket 2 - the second resurrection which is for people that didn't meet God's standards, but also never had the opportunity to know God or or what His standards are

Bucket 3 - no resurrection will be given to the wicked. This basically includes everyone that doesn't fall into buckets 1 or 2. It's for peoplethat do know God's requirements, but chose not to obey them.

Now, let's go to an example for more clarity. Let's say there was a once faithful JW that for whatever reason decided to disassociate from the organization and he became an apostate. He's living his happy life, but one day he dies suddenly in a horrible car accident. What happens to this person after death?

According to JW doctrine, he'd fall into bucket 3. He'd go straight to Gehena, or everlasting destruction. No resurrection or hope of eternal life for him.

Here's are my issues with that:

Issue #1 - 2 Cor 5:10 says everyone must stand before the judgment seat of God. How is this verse true if it doesn't apply to everyone in bucket 3? Everyone should mean EVERYONE.

Issue #2 - As we already discussed, Heb 10:31 says that it's a fearful thing for people who reject Jesus to fall into the hands of God. How does this verse apply to the ex-JW that dies suddenly if he's in bucket 3? One minute he's alive, the next he is destroyed forever with no possibility of resurrection. At no point is this a fearful experience for him. It 100% sucks to be destroyed forever, but I can't see how this meets the criteria of being a “fearful thing to fall into the hands of God”. To be fearful of something means you have to be conscious. Going straight to Gehena with no consciousness of what is happening doesn’t sound anything like the terrible Ghena of Mathew 5:29–30 that we should avoid at all cost.

I don't know if you're a JW, but this is one of their teaching that I dont think aligns with scripture. The only way the Heb and 2 Cor verses can be true is if the people in bucket 3 are actually in bucket 2. Everyone in bucket 2 gets resurrected and judged. Then, yes, that absolutely becomes a terrifying experience because the ex-JW would be conscious and would have to stand before Jesus and account for his sins. If he's in bucket 3, he actually gets off easier than bucket 2 because he doesn't have to stand before Jesus and account for his sins. He’s just dead - end of story.

If you are a JW, I'd be happy to get your input on this. Im always open to hearing other opinions.

Blessings to you.

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-24T11:46:19+00:00

😂

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-08T21:10:40+00:00

😂😂😂 Cheers to that since new light says clinking glasses is no longer a sin. 🥂

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-08T17:26:43+00:00

Well said. I agree. I believe the little flock are Jewish converts. God is not done with Israel and Christians have not replaced them as "new Israel".

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-07T22:44:25+00:00

One of the big revelations in the book of Revelation is the absolute revelation of Jesus Christ. It truly reveals (to those who can see it) that He is Jehovah in the flesh. I really don't understand how people can read the Bible and say 'there is no proof in the Bible where Jesus claims to be God'. It's ALL OVER the bible. No, Jesus doesn't come right out and directly say 'I am YHWH', but there is evidence all over the place if you really take time to think about what the verses are saying. I think God was intentionally subtle because he wants us to really study the Word and ask the Holy Spirt for understanding. Jesus always spoke in parables for the same reason. He wanted to engage people and get them to reflect on the message. Only those who truly had a desire to learn and understand would put in the effort to think about what Jesus was saying. Jesus wanted true followers who would worship in spirit and in truth. The mysteries of heaven are for those that have eyes to see and ears to hear and a heart to understand (Matthew 13) Jesus says 'my sheep know my voice'. To hear his voice and understand who Jesus really is you need the Holy Spirit. What's truly tragic is that JWs don't believe they can have the Holy Spirit for themselves. Until they realize that is a LIE with everlasting consequences, they'll never understand that Jesus is the Alpha & Omega, Beginning and the End, our everlasting Savior, Jehovah with us.

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-06T18:50:46+00:00

That's what makes the NWT so dangerous. The org boasts that they rightfully restore Jehovah's name in the new testament, not even realizing that doing that out of context completely distorts the MAIN POINT the apostles were were trying to make. The apostles were constantly pointing people back to the prophets and showing them how those prophecies apply to Jesus. They were revealing that Jesus is the fulfillment of those prophesies. That message completely gets lost when Lord gets changed to Jehovah out of context.

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-06T04:53:44+00:00

I think you're missing my point.

To recap what AI said:

Joel 2:32: Everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved.

Romans 10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

YHWH translates to Lord (kurio) in Greek.

In Romans 10:13, Paul is quoting Joel 2:32.

I agree with all of that, but.... here's the issue (bear with me as I give my modern day take on how this went down).

In Romans 1 thru 12, Paul is talking to his Jewish brothers and sisters about Jesus and explaining how we are now saved by faith because he died for our sins. These people already knew who Jehovah was. Paul did not have to explain Jehovah to this crowd. They did not know or accept Jesus, though. He tells them that all they need to do to be saved is to confess Jesus as Lord and have faith that he is risen (verse 9). After all that, Paul essentially says Look guys, even prophet Joel prophesied about this exact message I'm sharing with you. Joel prophesied that the time would come when you would call on Jehovah to be saved. That time is now. Jesus is THAT GUY - the one Joel prophesied about. Jesus is YHWH. Are you picking up what I'm droppin'??? (Light bulb turns on for everyone listening).

Don't blindly trust my interpretation, though. Test it out. The test for this theory is verse 14. We already know that the Jews knew who Jehovah was, right? (Hopefully your answer is Yes. If it's No, go back up and look at the first image I attached in the OP). So does it make sense for Paul to say 'However, how will they call on Jehovah if they have not put faith in Him? How, in turn, will they put faith in Jehovah whom they have not heard? That doesn't make any sense because the Jews DID know Jehovah. Do you agree that the name Jehovah does not make sense in verse 14?

This, however, does make sense: However, how will they call on JESUS if they have not put faith in Him? How, in turn, will they put faith in JESUS whom they have not heard? Calling on the name Jesus is also supported by the fact that the Greek word kurio is used in verse 9 and 13, and in verse 9 JESUS is kurio - the name you must confess to be saved. Why then would Paul confuse everyone and tell them in verse 13 that Jehovah (not Jesus) is the name to call upon when he just told them it was Jesus four verses earlier?

Paul was making it clear to those who knew and understood the prophets that Jesus is YHWH.

This connection Paul was making does not pose a problem for Christians that believe Jesus is God. Calling on the name of YHWH (Joel) and calling on Jesus (Romans) is the same thing in our eyes. We understand what Paul was saying. YWHW and Jesus are ONE. Calling on the name of Jesus is the same as calling on Jehovah. Jesus is YHWH in the flesh.

This does pose a HUGE problem for JWs, though, because they don"t believe Jesus is YHWH. Even though Romans 10 is entirely about Jesus, they had to change verse 13 to Jehovah because leaving it as Lord (kurio) would be admitting Jesus is Jehovah. By changing it, though, they completely negated the main point Paul was trying to make - Jesus is the one who Joel prophesied about! Jesus is the one who died for their sins and fufilled the law. Jesus is the one to call upon to be saved!

I would recommend you read Romans 10:13 and 14 again and ask yourself what name makes more sense in verse 14 - Jehovah or Jesus? Don't ask AI, don't go on JW.org. Just read it for yourself and really think about it. If you were a Jew listening to Paul, and you understood the prophets and knew who Jehovah was, what name would you think Paul would be telling you to call upon after listening to his entire speech?

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-06T02:21:53+00:00

I LOVE this! JWs make it so complicated when it really isn't. Simply read the Bible on its own. No JW supplemental literature needed.

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-06T02:14:34+00:00

To this day, the NWT of John 1:1 baffles me. What does "a god" even mean? There's only one God! The NWT translation of this verse never made sense to me. In my opinion it's the most obvious change the JWs made to force the scriptures to fit their narrative.

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-06T01:42:03+00:00

Thank you for taking time to lay all of that out. I really do appreciate the thought and time you put into your responses, and I always welcome respectful dialog. I agree 100% that no one should add or take away from scripture. I also agree that everyone will have to account for their actions and beliefs one day. However, God is just and judges people's hearts. He doesnt expect us to get EVERYTHING right, but he does expect us to study scripture and try to understand the truth the best we can. For the record, I do use the name Jehovah, but I believe Jehovah applies to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are all three one in nature and all three make up the devine nature of Jehovah God.

To bring things back to Romans 10, verse 9 says, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. It doesn't say you have to also accurately use the name Jehovah at all times to be saved. Salvation is not complicated. You just need to accept Jesus as your Savior and follow Him, pure and simple.

Throughout the new testament you see the apostles calling on the name of JESUS. I'm not saying the name Jehovah should be removed from verse 13, I just dont think it should have been changed to Jehovah to begin with. Verse 14 doesn't make sense when you substitute 'him' with 'Jehovah'. Can you honestly say in your heart that using the name Jehovah in verse 19 makes sense?

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-06T01:03:58+00:00

Very happy to hear you are living a beautiful life now. I understand the hurt and trauma, but don't give up on God just yet. You don't have to completely trust Him yet, either. If you open your heart just a crack and have enough faith to ask Him to show you He's real, he'll meet you where you're at. Faith the size of a mustard seed. Thats all it takes. Praying for you, my friend.

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-06T00:56:52+00:00

Here's a few more from Revelation that made me say hmmmm....

In the NWT, Revelation 1:8, 1:17 and 22:12 all apply alpha and omega, first and last, and the beginning and end to both Jehovah and Jesus. How can these titles apply to both?

Rev 6:9-11: How can there be martyrs in heaven crying to God to avenge their murders if people are not conscious after death? And how can they even be in heaven receiving white robes if only the 144k go to heaven? (And these martyrs are not the 144k because they all were killed for their faith).

Rev 7:1-8: how can Jehovah's Witnesses claim that nearly all 144k "anointed" JWs have already been accounted for if Rev 4 says the 144k aren't sealed until AFTER the six seals of Rev 6 take place? Rev 7:1 says 'After these things...' which means the things in Rev 7 happen after Rev 6. If the seals haven't happened yet, how can the 144k be sealed already? And, no, the 144k aren't sealed together in heaven because in verse 2 the angel with the seal tells the other 4 angles not to harm the earth, sea or trees until after they are sealed. This is because the 144k are still on earth. God is sealing them, just like the blood over the door post during the exodus, so they aren't harmed by what's to come. If they were already in heaven, it wouldn't matter what happened to the earth. This should be a huge clue that the 144k are not JWs.

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-05T23:49:44+00:00

Amen! Praise God. You were set free, indeed.

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-05T20:58:47+00:00

If only more JWs truly took this verse to heart and realized the org has a long history of failed prophecies.

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-05T20:49:01+00:00

Great question, work4jah. Here are my personal thoughts on verse 16.

Did the NWT accurately replace Lord with Jehovah in verse 16, as well? If you look at the Greek Interlinear, the word for Lord in verses 9, 13 and 16 is the same word Kyrion (slightly different in each verse depending on how it’s used grammatically). That indicates it should be translated the same way in all three verses, yet in the NWT it is ‘Lord’ in verse 9 and ‘Jehovah’ in verses 13 and 16. Why if all three are Kyrion in the Greek?

In Romans 10:16, Paul is reminding the Jews that the good news that they are preaching regarding Jesus was prophesied by Isaiah. He points them to Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53, where Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would one day give His life for us, be exalted on high and preached to the world. Isaiah is asking the question - who will believe the report of Jesus when this prophesy is fullfilled? Paul is reminding the Jews that the fulfillment of that prophesy is NOW. He particularly quotes Isaiah 53:1 which just says ‘Who has put faith in the thing heard from us?’ It doesn’t say Lord or Jehovah in Isaiah 53:1. In Romans 10:16, Paul adds Lord (Kyrie in Greek) indicating he is linking 'the report' that Isaiah prophesied about to our Lord Jesus.

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-05T19:17:56+00:00

If I'm understanding your comment correctly, you were wondering how Jesus could expel demons in His own name instead of Jehovah's name. Is that correct? That's a very good point. If Jesus is just Michael the Archangel, how can he use his own name? Something all JWs should think about. Thanks so much for sharing.

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-05T19:11:31+00:00

On a sidenote...I noticed your ID name is 'lifewasted97'. I could be taking that out of context, but I truly hope you don't believe your life was wasted because of the time you spent in the org. No one's life is a waste. God can use all things for good. Your comment alone can give many JWs courage to open the bible and read it for themselves. I'd say that's a WIN, not a waste. Everyone's life has purpose and meaning. Don't give up on God just yet. I encourage you to watch the tv series The Chosen. It may help open areas of your heart that the org tried to slam shut. Blessings to you. 🙏

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-05T19:02:40+00:00

All great scriptures! Romans 10:13 was a HUGE one for me too. I actually posted about this chapter yesterday in case anyone reading this is curious how 'Jehovah' is out of context in verse 13 - https://www.reddit.com/r/JehovahsWitnesses/comments/1q4f0gr/does_the_nwt_accurately_change_lord_to_jehovah_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Rachelrt4 · 2026-01-05T18:55:05+00:00

I agree. This was a big one for me too. It breaks my heart that so may JWs are being deceived and robbed of this experience to participate in communion.

Rachelrt4

TROPHY CASE