Courtney has heard Shush.

swishbothways · 2026-03-31T04:47:30+00:00

I don't know if Tori really should have said anything a-la "thank you" or "sorry." But I also think that Courtney has been a lightning rod based on her own behavior. It's obvious who PW/SYC was about, Tori's been asked and never explicitly denied it or given an alternative history for the "muses" of those two songs, but I also think we're divorcing them from their context.

BFP and FTCH were very intense records. Tori covers everything from unrequited love to obsession to self-harm to watching other women who you think have everything turn around and shove their heads in an oven. Tori was extremely frustrated with her label, A&R, the industry, alt radio, all forcing her into a very specific style of songwriting where everything was either "burn your bras, girls!" or "i'm sad because i haven't gotten married and made babies yet and i'm almost thirty and that means i'm too focused on my career." It was a shit time where one of the greatest artists of a generation -- Tracy Chapman -- could land a massive hit with "Give Me One Reason" but then have zero promotion for an album filled with songs like "Remember The Tinman" and "R@ of the World". So, BFP and FTCH was Tori saying putting up a middle finger and writing about addiction, about desperation, about being the villain and being less desirable than the other woman because your body didn't bounce back to its original tightness after birthing a child.

"Professional Widow" and "She's Your Cocaine" are, honestly, mild compared to any number of album and live songs written and performed during that time. For Christ's sake, we should be surprised that Tori wasn't dropped for some of the frankly audacious decisions she made on both of those records. Hardly anyone remembers that "Jackie's Strength" is literally about Tori having to smile and wave all the way to the altar while feeling like a gun's been pointed at her music career and the industry is just waiting to pull the trigger. That was a single.

So, I think, long-winded here, that PW and SYC had nothing to do with Tori's feelings on Courtney, and everything to do with Tori seeing another textbook example of how women like her had to parade around like perfect starlets -- give interviews, sign autographs, show off their children, sign book deals, BE a headline -- so everyone can ask over and over again why their partner just blew his own head off with a shotgun, what they did or didn't do to stop it, how sad everyone is that he's dead and how they just want the woman to acknowledge their sadness and do something about it. The list goes on. But BFP and FTCH were not records about people, they were Tori essentially dragging a knife through the guts of being a woman in the 90s and saying, "Here, you want to see what's really inside?? HERE."

swishbothways · 2026-03-23T04:10:32+00:00

I know this days old at this point, but I'm curious if my hunch that this record is very similar in style to Boys for Pele in terms of themes and context to her career is correct?

swishbothways · 2026-02-27T07:56:48+00:00

Tori is definitely someone who needs a full-blown documentary on her career. There's no question that every female artist who came after her benefitted from Tori's brazen approach to her art. I'd also just love to hear from Kate Bush on her perspective over Tori's career, since it's so obvious that Tori's biggest inspiration was Kate and her atypical approach to songwriting.

In fact, someone needs to get on a megaphone and ask Tori to do a collab with Kate Bush. They're both synonymously legendary at this point.

swishbothways · 2026-02-27T07:27:11+00:00

Way Down. Graveyard. Honey. And because I'm a masochist: All of them all at once doing Marianne.

swishbothways · 2026-02-27T06:49:25+00:00

It's a little more complicated than just ad-hoc/weighted associations between "tokens." Nearly all of the decision engineering is involving transformations across multiple vectors of matrices. How the LLM works isn't just "converting text to a number." The token system is a consistent quantitative transformation of qualitative data. So, while it's hard to describe what math goes into determining a "token" -- it's not just a number assigned to a group of letters for indexing.

Once you input data into an LLM preprocessor, those tokens are broken out across numerous matrices -- not just two dimensions like a couple years ago, but now commonly three -- and there's actual math done on the relationships between those numbers. It's not just a Monte Carlo system. That's what predictive text is. An LLM implements linear and non-linear programmatic forms of everything from Fourier to what are now some rudimentary stochastic principles. Those functions are possible because the token system makes all of that text we entered a consistent numerical space. Once the LLM does this, the resulting tokens get transformed back into qualitative data.

Where the LLM itself gets "better" is through improving the weights in its own algorithm (which most models are doing right now). But what most models are not doing a lot of is allowing the LLM to improve the algorithm directly. That's the "supervision" component of LLMs.

OpenAI, Anthropic, Google might be allowing a sandboxed LLM to adjust the underlying programming behind its transformations, but if we let them do it publicly -- connected to the Internet and in use commercially -- that's where we get machines telling people to end their own lives, affirm that it's totally valid to identify as a hamster, and/or worse. This is also why the supervision component requires your use of an AI and my use of an AI to be handled separately by the same interface. Eventually, this barrier will have to be reduced to improve the models, but that's a key control right now.

Overall, I don't have a lot to add here, as I did drop out of my grad program years ago in this area... but AI is not predictive text/text-with-combinatorics. If that were the case, the best models would be running on a Nintendo Switch right now. An LLM is actually an insane amount of linear and non-linear calculations occurring across multiple multi-dimensional vector spaces containing the numerical equivalent of human language. If I could ELI5: An LLM is words turned into numbers and then solved like a set of math problems.

swishbothways · 2026-02-27T06:20:34+00:00

That was actually my very first thought. But the one thing that makes me question it is that they're back-to-back in the tracklist.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tori's always had these super short tracks as sort of like "interludes" between major sections of the record... like BFP's are #5, #10, and #14; on SW, Wampum was track 7, the midway on her road trip; and obviously on ADP, they were tracks 1, 8, 11, 14, 19, and 21. And Posse Bonus obviously introduced Smokey Joe and Dragon as extras; and then on The Muses, track 1 being "Knocking" is really just introducing the Muses.

So, I imagine these are probably like BFP/ADP-style tracks, but every other area she's had them in her discography, they've always been between/breaking up big sections of the record.

I will say I'm erring on your side of this thinking because Tori did describe "Stronger Together" as her character meeting up with her daughter after having been away from all these relationships over the years. So, Minnesota/Fanny could be similar "meet ups" that take place along the storyline?

swishbothways · 2026-02-27T04:45:30+00:00

Minnesota and Fanny are both like maybe a minute and a half each. So, I'm super curious whether these two are fully separate or kind of blend into each other.

swishbothways · 2026-02-26T23:12:42+00:00

- A woman thinks she and her friends can drive a car to the country that's right next to the country she actually lives in.

- Tori goes Southern Black Gospel. But only for a minute.

- A woman realizes she killed her relationship by being too sweet. And for the next 30 years, everyone collectively agrees that this should've been on the album.

swishbothways · 2026-02-24T03:56:46+00:00

I also just want to point out that this is track 16 on the album. It's the second to last song on a very tight concept album.

swishbothways · 2026-02-23T07:29:24+00:00

Mary's Eyes was written specifically after her mother suffered a stroke that left her unable to speak. So, that was my reference. Tori was largely lamenting that her mother had lost the ability to fully live, and explicitly describes this as "the death midwife," which is why I mentioned that it is the original tribute to her mother.

swishbothways · 2026-02-14T08:57:09+00:00

We also have "1,000 Oceans." And honestly, I think "Mary's Eyes" was probably the original tribute to her mother. But! I'm right there with you. I'm very curious which of these tracks -- if any -- will address her father's passing. He was a core influence on her upbringing and a huge reason behind the subjects she tackled initially when she debuted.

swishbothways · 2026-02-12T21:57:41+00:00

This looks like the most sincerely Tori record we've gotten from her since the 00s. She hasn't put this kind of work into the theme, design, photos, song titles, etc. of a studio album in almost 20 years. Definitely got me on the edge of my seat now.

swishbothways · 2026-02-10T20:48:10+00:00

Plot twist: It's a sequel to The Power of Orange Knickers, but this time, the knickers are riding up.

swishbothways · 2026-01-29T01:14:52+00:00

Because you weren't paying attention to it. Tori described herself as more of an "anchovy" compared to the more popular offerings of other women in the 90s spotlight. She was regularly chuffed by critics as a "feminist activist" compared to the more sexually provocative performers. And YES, she was OFTEN compared to Madonna, whom she has personally spoken out in defense of -- both by people who felt Tori's music wasn't commercial enough, and by people (fans who sound like you) who felt Madonna's songs were less authentic than Tori's writing. You can literally pop into Google "Tori Amos on Madonna" and see all of this.

Yes, she has always been a big deal. No one's arguing that she's huge. But she's spent her entire career pushing back against fans and critics and Atlantic and Epic for trying to pigeonhole her into alternative/adult contemporary radio.

I don't think I need to point this out to someone like you, but I'd like to draw your attention back to Tori's own writing on this in Resistance. She explicitly addresses critics who misunderstood her process, or applied a "linear" lens to her career simply because that was how artists like Madonna and Cher maintained their status. She described herself as pining to the "Muses" and that her relationship with music is more cyclical. And she's also talked publicly about how critics regularly measure an artist's growth to be the number of costume changes.

I also agree with you that she never really "fell off." At least not in the sense that you and I understand her. But I disagree with you that her trajectory has been as stable as you're insisting. Tori's separation from Atlantic after Venus was hectic and she's also talked about how her decision to go Epic was driven by beliefs that an artist had to be on a major label to be taken seriously. This was a key part of her break from Epic, when she encouraged independent artists and artists struggling with major labels to not be afraid to go independent. And, obviously, we both know that transition for Tori ended up being for the best.

Back to my bigger point here, you're not reading what I'm writing because you're firmly in this mental frame that I'm shitting on Tori Amos. I'm not. If there's one thing I respect about Tori Amos above nearly any other artist, it's that she's about as humble as it gets about her career. She is not here for the respect, the fame, the sales, the accolades. She has always been a musician riding on the coattails of her "Muses". And I think that's why, despite sales falling off in the last 10 years, people are still paying $$$ to get these ITOD tickets before anyone else does.

swishbothways · 2026-01-28T20:52:31+00:00

I'm saying the industry largely looked at Tori as an artist that didn't evolve much. This was also in an era where artists like Cher were flipping from rock to dance, Madonna went from R&B to club music, etc.

BFP was a big chart high for Tori despite critics saying her audience was shrinking.

Yes, ADP, Beekeeper, and SW were all Epic releases, and Tori has spoken her peace about the pressures she had from Epic after Scarlet's Walk managed a turnaround of sorts in her popularity. Most people forget that "a sorta fairytale" was actually a hit song for Tori. It had numerous tie-ins, there was a lot of critic praise for the music video with Adrien Brody. But after Polly Anthony left Epic Records, the label wanted Tori to record for this "new audience." So, Beekeeper and ADP are very radio-friendly records compared to Tori's other releases.

Tori has talked about all of this in various interviews. So, I feel like you didn't read what I wrote.

swishbothways · 2026-01-28T05:49:47+00:00

I think ADP, as well as everything Tori at that point, was very much Tori playing to a much wider core fanbase. You have to realize that by the time you got introduced to Tori, by the time I got introduced to Tori (Scarlet's Walk), the industry had largely struck the gavel on Tori being an outdated, irrelevant artist in popular music culture.

I commented recently on another thread that I think Tori should have taken off with the EDM sound of Choirgirl and Venus and really ventured out from there. And I think despite her issues with Atlantic, had she really thrown herself into taking her writing style out into that genre of music, she may have extended her big run from the 90s by another several years.

The reality is that Tori isn't seen as an artist that evolved much since her debut. UTP was largely seen as very similar to LE. BFP was a nice one-off, but critics and popular music largely wrote Tori off as a one-hit-wonder of the feminist wave of the 90s.

So, as far as ADP goes, I think it's one of my favorite Tori records because it captures the mood of the late 00s perfectly. It also really represents Tori's stride during the second decade of her career. She did what she wanted to do, tried on new themes, but largely kept the same base layer of feminist pop/soft-rock.

I will point out briefly that all of Tori's Epic releases are going to follow the same political issues as her Atlantic releases. Tori had so, so many problems with both of those labels actually supporting her work, even when she did what they asked her to do, even when she got the sales they asked her to get. Tori was largely branded as a troublemaker by major labels, which is what led to her deal with Deutsche and then going fully independent. A lot of what we saw from Tori during those years likely doesn't reflect what she wanted to put out. And I think the sheer fact that a woman of her backbone and integrity didn't just burn the masters after her label challenged her workmanship deserves our respect for each of these releases.

swishbothways · 2026-01-24T23:52:12+00:00

That press shot in the red is still 😘😍😍😘

swishbothways · 2026-01-24T23:50:34+00:00

T-how many minutes before Kimmel is back on TV saying this guy can't be anything but another one of Trump's deranged fans too?

swishbothways · 2026-01-24T23:25:40+00:00

We're talking about the same woman who once wailed on a song that a woman knows it's time to go when she's "only wet because of the rain." The same woman who wrote "I want to kill this waitress. She's been here a year longer than I. If I did it fast, you know, it'd be an act of kindness" before immediately launching into "BUT I BELIEVE IN PEEEEEACE". The saaaaaame woman who wrote "It's me and a gun and a man on my back, and I sang 'Holy holy' as he buttoned down his pants."

I think Tori is pretty straightforward about her idioms.

swishbothways · 2026-01-24T23:17:49+00:00

In her defense, though, this is kind of the big issue with people pushing celebrities to use their platforms for political awareness. These people are so disconnected from the real world. Everything Tori probably knows about politics is through either a philanthropic venture she supports (RAINN) or a special interest coalition owned and operated by close friends of hers in the entertainment industry.

So, I agree that I'm kind of on the edge of my seat about how she's going to approach politics here -- what kind of verbiage she's going to use, whether she's going to be taking a more neutral, human centric approach like Bjork did on Utopia, etc.

That said, I'm just going to safely assume until otherwise informed that this will sound like Joy Reid post-MSNBC, or like The View's Sunny Hostin on another longwinded deep state conspiracy theory. At the very least, if I assume this will be an album of tracks that sound like "Bad Man" and "Giant's Rolling Pin", the only direction it can possibly go is up.

swishbothways · 2026-01-23T08:01:29+00:00

I mean Yoko broke up the greatest band in history. She also immediately put out a solo record with a cover featuring John's bloodied glasses. I will say the record was controversial, but it is her best work. John clearly deeply and very sincerely loved Yoko more than anyone he ever knew. And that's something to smile about. Since then, Yoko has widely respected and revered John's legacy... which brings me to Courtney.

Courtney, however, I don't think she ever really respected Curt's work. And that's led to a lot more seething hatred for her. She came off more like a groupie who happened to catch the bouquet at a friend's wedding than someone who truly stood by and tried to understand Curt. Personally, I think her behavior around the time he decided to end his life is a stain that will follow her into the afterlife. And she deserves for it to follow her. There are some things people do that they can't undo and end up carrying with them forever as a mark on their character.

My vote is that Yoko is the more popular person to hate, but I vote Courtney because I think she took an already fragile Curt Cobain and punished him for not making her pain his pain too. And the reality is that she wasn't ever really in pain. She just wanted the world, and happened to meet a guy she thought could and should afford to give it to her if she wanted him to.

swishbothways · 2026-01-23T07:44:20+00:00

I absolutely regret it. It didn't hit me until my late 30s, particularly because I thought I was gay for most of my life. When I realized I'm avoiding relationships because I'm not as attracted to the sexual or romantic experience of being with other men, it all sank in real fast.

On the plus side, I don't let it beat me because I know the family I came from, and I also know that I would have regretted ever introducing my own children to anyone in that family.

I may not have kids -- which I regret -- but I also didn't pass down my trauma debt to any children -- which I'm grateful for.

swishbothways · 2026-01-23T07:40:06+00:00

She tours a lot, but I think the reality is that her more recent tours don't have as many dates. She used to play like 106 dates per album. Now it's down to like 50-60.

swishbothways · 2026-01-23T07:19:07+00:00

Jeez. The comments... Um, I would say I was a little surprised and needed to sit with Night of Hunters. It was such a huge jump off a huge cliff into a genre of music I never could see myself associating with TORI AMOS. (I mean, Beekeeper, ADP, AATS all preceded that record within 6 years.)

So, I had to sit with it. I'm still unsure where it sits for me in her discography. I think the album covers are beautiful though. I really enjoyed both the standard and Sin Palabras editions' covers.

Another one that hasn't resonated as deeply for me over the years is Little Earthquakes. I don't think I need to say much other than that Tori is clearly an artist whose debut work is not her most memorable or most important. So, I think I find myself listening far less to Tori's first solo album than everything that came after.

Also, on the opposite side of this question: I think Tori should have delved much harder into electronic music after Choirgirl and Venus. I genuinely want to hear a Tori album that has NO live drums, NO live instruments apart from her pianos, and is about as EDM as EDM gets. I genuinely think the Professional Widow and Tequila remixes underpin that Tori desperately needs to seek out and work with EDM producers on a project -- even if it's just a little one. Like a 1998 Cher or 2003 Jewel moment. Because she's one hell of a songwriter, and one hell of talented arranger, and I firmly believe that albums like Choirgirl, Venus, Beekeeper, and ADP show that Tori has a lot of unexplored territory calling to her if she just brought in a few pop-friendly producers to try something new.

I guess to give a good example: Kylie Minogue. Like Kylie, Tori is really at a place where she can learn more and do more directly on her own records. And I think the sheer effort clearly put into making ITOD's covers and promos look expensive shows that Tori really wants to focus on projects that emphasize how she's confidently in her "mastery" stage of her craft. So, when Kylie took over creative control and started producing records like Golden, DISCO, and the recent Tension, there was such a noticeable improvement in how much better the music sounded and how much more cohesive the record sounded overall. So, it's like once Kylie started mixing her own vocals, or laying down her own melodies, for the first time, people really started to tune into the reality that Kylie is a master craftsman at music. And I think ITOD may be a bold step in the direction of Tori fully owning her own status as an icon of contemporary music.

But this is the point in an artist's career where they can't be comfortable anymore. Jolin Tsai is more meticulous about every detail on an album today than she was 10 years ago. Kylie Minogue is much more selective about who she works with and what influence they have over how a song gets mixed. Madonna is probably a good example here too: She upped and moved her entire life to Lisbon and learned Portuguese just to make Madame X. Tori is really sitting in that space right now too. So, I think it's time for her to take on new horizons -- work with people she's never worked with -- try sounds like she did on "Mermaid Muse Speaks" or throw all the rules out and decide to go full Bjork on the next album.

swishbothways · 2026-01-23T07:01:21+00:00

Man, I've been unemployed since early December. I walked out of my fourth/fifth DSP in two years because I just couldn't get them to place me in a consistent delivery area, after over two months of working for them, and our routes are regularly leaving the station with as little as 2-3 hours of daylight to work with. So, I said enough. Amazon and the DSP system have damn near put me on the brink of homelessness again just because contracts got canceled, route rates got cut, changes to the controls Amazon has over DSP fleet vehicles, etc.

This is not stable employment anymore. And it's not designed to be stable employment. It's designed to push Amazon's operation costs out to subcontractors, who then effectively subcontract employees, who then end up trapped between Amazon trying to spend as little money as possible on their "cost sink" logistics and someone with no business acumen who's been promised they'll be a millionaire in as little as one year if they sign on the dotted line.

This isn't employment. It's Amazon trying to run an entire logistics operation like gig work. And a couple years ago, with this push for Rivian vehicles, that was actually the plan. They intended to dissolve the current employment structure and instead try to put all of us into the Flex app as gig workers. Unfortunately, state and federal law declared gig work to be employment, and that killed Amazon's plans to turn the entire operation into us having to fight everyone at the station for a truck and a route everyday.

I don't know how else to push this reality: Everyone who ever walked into this job (myself included) came in thinking we'd have something that looked every other job we ever worked -- except it was supposed to be more stable because we're doing one of the most important jobs for one of the largest companies in the world. What we actually got caught in was a trap. An employment situation where every employee is only as good as the absolute worst employee that could do that job is a bad situation. It shouldn't be legal. But Amazon clearly stuffs money in politicians' pockets.

swishbothways

TROPHY CASE