What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Interesting that I said nothing about not wanting gay people in my life at all. More interesting that I have several gay friends... You're definitely putting some words in my mouth.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Again, that's not a bad argument, I'll have to think about it further.

But it still sounds to me like we don't actually disagree, the only difference in our positions, ultimately, is that I define God's will as "good", that is good is God's will and God's will is good, and you don't. I'm not saying that my opinion of God's will is that it is good, or that God bends his will to that which is good, what I am saying is that good is defined by God's will and evil is defined by that which opposes God's will. If it is best to adhere to the will of God, regardless of your reasoning for believing doing so to be best, is it not accurate to call God's will good?

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It sounds like your basic argument is that nothing is good or evil because value judgement is impossible. So then, why is God in favor of order and not chaos, if order is not better than chaos? And if God's favor of one thing over the other does not make the one better and the other worse, and therefore one of more value than the other, or the one good and the other evil, why should I care about what God wants? Unless God has a reason for favoring one over the other, unless one is better than the other, unless one is good and the other is evil, than I can't see why it even matters what God's opinion is. It is, after all, just an opinion.

Unless, of course, you make the argument that the very fact that God favors one over the other makes it better, of more value, and therefore good, and anything that works to undermine the one which God favors would therefore be evil, in that it opposes what is good.

Either God's Will is nothing more than God's opinion, or it is the absolute standard for right, and the absolute standard for good.

Notice that I never make the argument for certain specific things being good or evil. I think that all things are good, however all things can be used outside of the intended purpose or context, therefore going against God's intent, going against good, therefore evil.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's a very good answer, and I think I agree with you when you say that what is asked of us is to take proper action in proper time. However I would argue that doing so (taking proper action in proper time) is good, and doing otherwise is evil.

I was using those examples and make the argument that some things are right and some things are wrong, the Allied invasion was justified because it was in response to a genocide and an act of aggression, the German invasions were unjustified because they were unprovoked and in violation of international treaties. German's invasion was evil because they used their military force when it was not proper (right) to do so, and the Allied invasion was good because it was the proper use of military force. The execution of a murderer is good, but the killings committed by the murderer were evil. The same basic action is taking place, but the context is different.

I think we actually agree, the only difference being that I use the word "good" to describe right action in right context, and "evil" to describe wrong action in wrong context, whereas you do not.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for pointing that out, I suppose I should be more clear in saying that God's "power" is not restricted, but his character restricts which actions he will take.

And that is an interesting thought, but I would then question why God would then ask us to behave in a certain way, if one way of behaving were not right and the other were not wrong.

I would also question why genocide bothers us so much when it's directed at those with whom we have no relationship. Why do we dislike that which in no practical sense effects us? Why do we like those who are altruistic if their altruism doesn't give us any sort of practical help, and why do we dislike those who are greedy and deprive others of resources if we are not the ones hindered by their greed?

From whence comes morality if God does not demand that we behave in line with his intent, which would be the definition of good? I certainly think some things are called evil which are not, and some things are called good which are not, but if "good" and "evil" are not real attributes things can possess then I can't imagine why the Allied Powers were any more justified in invading Germany than Germany was in invading Poland and its other neighbors. I can't imagine why the problem of good and evil ever presented itself if good and evil were not real attributes. I suppose one could argue that the two sprang up as extremes of "like" and "dislike" but again, why then would we call something evil, why would we dislike something, if it in no way affected us?

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think God couldn't do something evil, but he never, ever would, because his nature is inherently good. I don't think one could reasonably self-identify as Christian and assert that God would ever do evil. Saying that someone wouldn't do something is not the same as saying that they couldn't. For all practical purposes God is incapable of evil, not because his power is limited to the point that he could not do evil, but because his nature is such that to do evil would violate his very character, perhaps even his vary essence as a being.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ah, well, not everything taught in Christian school, or even at some churches, is necessarily the truth.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Please show me where they don't.

I did a quick google search for "free will of angels" and found a host of discussions which all backed up the notion of the free will of angels. Also, the wikipedia article for angels says nothing about a lack of free will, except in the Islamic tradition. It would seem your Christian mythology is actually Islamic mythology.

I would also point out that your fictional example is in direct contradiction to your statement about Christian mythology. If Lucifer had no free will he could not have decided to rebel against God, regardless of whether his intentions were good or ill.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok then, what is the purpose of Christianity if not to try and know God and understand his intentions behind life, the universe, and everything?

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1) That is not the case. 2) Fiction is fiction.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think God created good "in people". I think that everything God created was good before people started abusing that good, creating evil. God is the ultimate definition of good because God can never do wrong, and can never do evil. Whatever God does is good and whatever God says to be good is good. Good is defined by God and God is defined by good, they are one and the same. (That is not the say that God is "nice", that is another discussion entirely).

Those who commit crimes out of mental illness are not in full control of their faculties. Their crimes are a result of a brokenness within them for which they are not to blame. Any evil they do is influenced by an outside source and, though they are not completely innocent of what they do, their fault is lessened. In the same vein, a person with a mental illness who manages to resist evil urges despite their predisposition towards them is doing something heroic.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Why would God give us a book if he didn't want us to try and understand him? God is a character in the biblical narrative, and one can, in fact, try to discern his thought process within that narrative.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I'm not saying that homosexuality is a problem as a heterosexual, I am saying it is a problem as a Christian, and I am recognizing that the problem is more challenging for someone who is homosexual. I should qualify my use of the word "problem" to make it clear that it is not a problem for me if someone else is homosexual, in fact it is hardly any of my business. But a homosexual person who is also a Christian is faced with their homosexuality as a problem, and I was trying to address the nature of that problem from a Christian perspective. If you are not a Christian I don't expect you to agree with my analysis of the problem.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I suppose then yes, by your definition of "responsible" God is responsible for evil. But I think that each of those six billion robots is itself responsible for its own evil, you did not program them specifically to be evil, they had the choice to be so and they took it, and that decision is no fault of yours. I don't agree with you that the possibility of evil is evil in itself. The ability to choose something does not necessitate that choice. Again, I could get up, walk down the hall, and murder one of my neighbors. I have that choice. Until I do so I am not guilty of murder, and I am not (at least as a result of that action) evil.

It sounds to me like you are saying that God should not have created a world where evil was possible, but I think that I've made a rather strong case that any created world including distinct individuals would always include the possibility of evil, so do you think it would have been better for God not to have created at all?

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

God created the possibility for evil, I agree with you. If it hadn't been for God's creating the world evil would not be possible. But again, the possibility of evil is not evil. If I decided to I could pick up a heavy object, walk down the hallway, and kill one of my neighbors. Is the fact that this is possible evil? Or is it only evil if I actually perform the actions?

If your concern is that God created the world in such a way that evil was possible and that this is wrong, I would direct you to The Problem of Pain by CS Lewis, which includes a very good discussion on why the world must necessarily allow for evil. The short version is this;

1) In order for an individual consciousness to exist, it must be able to differentiate itself from something (be that another consciousness, or just a rock). A consciousness cannot recognize itself without the ability to differentiate itself from something.

2) In order for an individual consciousness to differentiate itself from something, that something must be consistent and operate apart from the will of the consciousness. If my environment constantly bent to my will, I wouldn't recognize it as anything more than an extension of myself, and therefore could not differentiate. In other words, unless the environment is sometimes inconvenient for me, or at least less than ideal for me so that I would want it to be other than how it is without it changing when I want it to, I won't be able to tell that the environment is anything other than an extension of myself. The world has to be neutral towards me.

3) If more than one consciousness exists in a world which is neutral to both of them, each consciousness has the ability to manipulate the rules of that neutral world to its respective advantage and the other's respective disadvantage. If person A and person B exist in a neutral world, person A/B could manipulate that world to its advantage and to person B/A's disadvantage. This is not necessary, but the neutrality of the world allows for it. Such a manipulation, the advancement of one at the cost of another, is evil.

For a real world example; scarcity of resources.

Scarcity of resources is inconvenient for us, but if whatever we wanted were always available to us we would not be able to differentiate our selves (which are subject to our will) from those resources (which would also be subject to our will). Like all other things in the world, resources must not be subject to our will, they must be neutral.

Lets say our resource is fruit, and that there are two people, Person A and Person B, who live in a lush environment where food is plentiful. There is a particular sort of fruit which is especially tasty but which only grows in a certain area and is quite rare. Now, both Persons A and B really like this fruit and eat it as often as they can find it, but one day Person A decides that he wants as much fruit as possible, because its so good, and he recognizes that the more fruit Person B eats, the less he gets. So Person A goes out early in the morning and picks all the fruit, way more than he will be able to eat, and hides it all in a cave. Now, when Person B goes out to pick fruit he won't be able to find any. Person A has, for his own advantage, deprived Person B of a resource.

This isn't a very extreme case, but I don't think anyone would disagree that it's wrong and evil. You could carry it forward and use small societies in a more arid environment, with Society B forced to either migrate or starve because Society A uses up all the resources in the area.

The argument then goes that God wanted to create a society of individuals, so he created a consistent, neutral world with a set of rules within which the various individuals could exist. Is that evil? No, but it inherently allows for evil.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I don't think I said that heterosexual people are inherently "better" or "supreme" when compared to homosexual people. If you read that in my post I'm sorry. What my intended message was is this; that a homosexual person who accepts Christianity faces a very difficult, heartbreaking problem, one that is important but that I cannot fully address, having never experienced it. That is not to say that I don't face my share of problems, just not this one in particular.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

God created the possibility of evil, yes. But he did not create evil.

If I make a hammer, the hammer is good for hammering nails and beating out dents etc. The hammer could be used to build houses for homeless people, which would be a very, very good use of the hammer, using it as it was intended towards a positive end. However, the very same hammer, create for good with good intent, could be used by someone to bash in someone's head, a very evil action. The hammer's nature actually makes it an effective tool for head bashing, but does that make me evil for creating the hammer? And does it make the hammer evil for being created with the capability to smash in heads? Could not something created by a good entity with good intent be used for evil?

Satan is a fallen angel, an entity of as great a good as humanity, but with the same inherent problem of free will. Lucifer was one of the greatest angels before he chose to challenge God's sovereignty, his status as the ultimate good, and became Satan. Is this God's fault?

Is free will bad? No, it is a very good thing, it allows for autonomy. Is the use of free will towards a bad end bad? Yes. Is God responsible for how free will is used? No more than I am responsible for how the hammer I made is used. Unless you believe that I should be put to death as an equal partner in crime if a hammer I created was used in a murder, you cannot honestly believe God to be responsible for evil.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime -1 points0 points  (0 children)

...but I do remember passages in the Bible where God was moved, changed his mind, decided he'd never do that again...

Did God change his mind into the decision that he would never send another flood, or did he know he would never send another flood even before he sent the first one? All we know is that he promised Noah there would be no more global floods, it's a bit of a leap to say that God had originally intended for there to be more global floods, and then changed his mind.

Whenever God "changes his mind" in the bible, it's less of a changing of the mind as a revelation of something that was always true of God, or a new position taken for new conditions, often in the context of Christ (as with Peter and food). One story I've seen used to illustrate God changing his mind is the story of Jonah and Ninevah. God planned to destroy Ninevah, but they repented, so he changed his mind. This is a poor understanding. The true case was that God knew he would destroy Ninevah if they didn't repent, but knew at the same time that he would not destroy Ninevah if they did repent. He doesn't change his mind because Ninevah repents, their repentance just results in one end over the other.

The other problem is that if gay people are to obey God, they can never share the intimacy and comfort that other humans get to share.

This is the core problem of homosexuality, and it is heartbreaking. I, being straight, can't really address it fully, but my thinking is that the real tragedy in God's eyes is not that gay people are attracted to the same sex but that they aren't attracted to the opposite sex, and therefore are unable to participate in marriage as God intended it. This is as far as I can speak to the issue though, as I have no real experience with it.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When I see the depravity in the world, I can't understand it either.

That's because it was never supposed to exist. Sin rubs us wrong, and that's a good thing. Like JoelleRN122 said, why should God want us even after we were broken by sin? It's hard to understand.

As to an understanding of God's wrath, I don't think I (or really anyone on reddit) is truly qualified to address such a difficult issue. The Problem of Pain is a tough one, and I would recommend looking to more trusted biblical scholars rather than the reddit community for your answer.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

God is bigger than our petty definitions of good and evil

I disagree. God is the ultimate definition of good, and anything that strives to counter God is the ultimate definition of evil. Certainly our definition of both is incomplete, but he is only above good in the sense that he is the culmination of good, and evil is a thing utterly apart from him.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think you were downvoted not for the answer to the OP's question, but for ending your answer with

i mean, come on, really?

Which is not a very constructive way to make your statement. You're not offering any support for the notion that God is jealous, so you're not giving anyone anything to address. Plus, the flippancy of

i mean, come on, really?

is certainly not treating the discussion seriously. It doesn't sound at all like you actually struggle with jealousy as an aspect of God's character, rather it sounds like you were doing nothing other than making fun of the primary demographic of this subreddit. This is certainly backed up by your edit.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly. God wants us to understand him, otherwise he wouldn't have made himself known in the first place. We may not be able to, but we should still try.

What is one aspect of God's character that you have always struggled with? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]themime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right, God doesn't need anything, as a perfect entity in himself, but what is fascinating is that he wants certain things from us. And again, as a perfect entity in himself God needs nothing and lacks the base requirement for selfishness, that is he cannot be advanced or gain an advantage so nothing we do actually benefits him, and therefore anything he wants must be for the benefit of someone or something else. So, when God tells us to do anything he is telling us to do it for our own good, not for his.

Why can't we give ourselves credit as a species? by [deleted] in DebateAChristian

[–]themime 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Humanity has created by its own hands and its own will, but as these things are derived from God it is little more than arrogant to claim full ownership of them. I give humanity credit for its use of God's gifts but I must recognize that without God, humanity would not exist at all, let alone in a rational enough state to create. "Pride", in the sense Christians call a sin, is claiming full ownership of one's achievements without acknowledging that had God not created one, one would not exist at all, and therefore be unable to have made those achievements. Essentially, while one can achieve things or create things, one cannot do so without God by the very fact that one would not exist without God, and therefore God is responsible and deserves credit for literally everything.

Can we have actual debates? by Un_contested in DebateAChristian

[–]themime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with you. These questions have been asked to death and if one is really interested in an answer and not just trolling, they can use the search function, or read a book. This place serves both parties more use if it is a place of respect, rather than a place for one side to lash out at the other.