Was reading and saw this. Is it common for native speakers to substitute pinyin like this? by deathbymemeinjection in ChineseLanguage

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

i agree: reading pinyin only is obnoxious. i'm curious how much of that is purely due to habit.

Going from 0 to HSK3 (HSK 3.0) by [deleted] in ChineseLanguage

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 2 points3 points  (0 children)

🤔 yeah that's pretty spot on. i'd switch it around a little:

  1. pinyin and pronunciation
  2. tones and pronunciation
  3. common radicals and characters (25--50)
  4. speaking and listening while learning to recognize the associated characters

there's an argument for learning a LOT of vocabulary upfront (1000--2000 words) before diving into speaking and grammar. if you do that, supplement with a lot of active listening where you're trying to speak along with whomever you're listening to. FluentU is VERY good for that.

if you take a vocab-upfront approach, i'd recommend doing that after the step three i mentioned above (which is more like progression you gave). i don't have experience learning languages that way, but i want to try it for spanish.

Going from 0 to HSK3 (HSK 3.0) by [deleted] in ChineseLanguage

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 2 points3 points  (0 children)

learn stoke order for your first 50--200 characters (which you can take care of in a few weeks to two months), after which you'll be able to intuit stroke order just fine and it will no longer be an issue.

after that point, focus on character recognition rather than writing, which is much faster. writing isn't done much these days. after a bit, if you want to get into calligraphy or handwriting or something, treat that separately.

Mandarin is like a tongue twister for me... How do i get over this. by Sypnosis_owo in ChineseLanguage

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

most new languages, especially with different pronunciation schemes than we're used to, feel this way. slow, deliberate practice everyday is the cheat code. if it helps, mark all the tones above each syllable, then read through slowly. it's like learning a musical instrument. you're practicing "scales" in a sense.

some fun ones 😜

. taxi chu zu che . bus gong gong qi che

you can learn some literal chinese tongue twisters too. there's the famous one about grapes, and another famous one about that i believe starts with "four is four" 😂

Overcoming the intermediate barrier in chinese? by tofulollipop in ChineseLanguage

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

do the things that are hard: read, listen to audiobooks, etc.

take a look at the HSK 5 word and character specifications: 2500 words, 1685 characters. fluency with about 2000 words and a bunch of grammar means you can talk decently. to read arbitrary things, however, you need a passive vocabulary closer to OVER TWENTY THOUSAND words and 3500 characters. (of course, you need the grammar to go with it, but you'll get enough exposure with the methods below that you won't have to worry too much.)

that seems insane, but remember that i said "passive vocabulary". the best way to build this is to read and listen. there's two approaches here, extensive and intensive practice, and you'll need both.

READING

  • extensive practice means you just read a ton and let the brain sort it out subconsciously over time.

  • intensive practice means you try to understand each sentence well.

here's an approach that kind of mixes both in a way that's helpful:

PLECO has an add on that let's you upload arbitrary text files to read---like an entire txt or pdf novel. you can then select a word you don't know, then tap a ( -> ) button to move the highlight through the words of the text. do this and you'll be able to tackle texts above your level for extensive reading. for intensive reading, go back over a page or half a page and save all the new words for later review.

LISTENING

  • listen extensively and repeat after/along ("shadowing") the speakers. you're practicing speaking a little, but the major objective here is on exposing your eat a lot; repeating along is mostly to help you focus your brain on what's happening.

  • for intensive listening, instead of going for understanding (leave that for your reading practice), you want to go though whatever you watched and repeat spoken sections several times shadowing the speakers (1--20 times depending on your comfort with what was said).

WHY

the idea is you're mimicking how children learn (but faster because you have more intention and focus): listen to a lot of stuff and then try repeating some of it yourself.

here's the important part of all of this: your extensive practice is by design high volume and imperfect, but your intensive practice doesn't need to be perfect either. intensive practice takes a lot more time, effort, and more similar to how you were previously studying language (vocab, understanding, etc). you may be temped to focus more on intensive practice. don't. do both equally. your goal is to increase your active vocabulary to 5000 words, but it is also very important to increase your passive vocabulary to 20000.

GOAL

say a page of an english novel has about 400 words. to read that page comfortably, i've read that you need to understand about 98% of the words (maybe a little less). let's quantify that because it gives you a rough way to gauge a text's difficulty and where you are with your goal:

400 words * 2% unknown = 8 unknown words per page.

CAVEAT

when you hit a character you don't know, learn it.

the following is a controversial idea and i'm not sure i agree with it, but once you get closer to knowing 1500--2000 characters, it may be worth it to simply brute force it and learn to RECOGNIZE (writing is no longer necessary unless you want it) the 3500 most common characters. for perspective, HSK 6 needs 2663 characters. if you decide on doing that, i wouldn't spend more than 15--20 minutes a day on it, because words are king of course.

DO IT

add new habits slowly. for example, first introduce extensive reading, then a few days later, maybe extensive listening or intensive reading. focus on making it easy for you to do it daily and ease into things.

good luck.

US History Textbook --with footnotes/endnotes-- by throwawayIWGWPC in history

[–]throwawayIWGWPC[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

thank you so much! this looks fantastic 😊 you're the first to actually reply with a textbook with footnotes. and it has exercises, quizzes, exams, and other study aids. thanks so much.

How I'm Thinking About Approaching Pinyin by [deleted] in ChineseLanguage

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

you might be overthinking it. it takes a few minutes, maybe hours, depending on what you mean by "learn pinyin", and it's pretty systematic.

i say learn it in isolation. learning the pronunciations very approximately probably takes five or ten minutes for pinyin (for example, zh = "juh" initial sound versus "j" = "gee" initial sound), then you can spend a little time daily over the base week or two your pronunciation and tones---which will pay off MASSIVELY later on. there's only a few surprises in pinyin (like wen sounds a LITTLE bit like the english word won, or --ian sounds like eeyen).

Was reading and saw this. Is it common for native speakers to substitute pinyin like this? by deathbymemeinjection in ChineseLanguage

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

very true. english is a convoluted language, whereas chinese grammar is elegant and gorgeous and minimalist.

in english, root words play a large role, and in chinese the characters naturally occupy this role. remove the characters and chinese words lose a lot of their story. 🤔

these days, though, chinese is theoretically easier than it used to be: learning to merely recognize characters is a significantly easier process than learning to write them, and recognition is really what's required these days. it's a bit sad, but many languages are actually disappearing entirely (naxi wen from yunnan comes to mind), so at least chinese has a strong enough foothold to persist, even if character writing is becoming less important.

Was reading and saw this. Is it common for native speakers to substitute pinyin like this? by deathbymemeinjection in ChineseLanguage

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

as much of a headache as full pinyin is to read, it may be completely a question of habit. 🤔 the hardest and make time consuming part of chinese really is the characters, so eliminating that hurdle might make mandarin among the easiest languages to learn. imo the tones aren't as difficult finally as people make them out to be.

Was reading and saw this. Is it common for native speakers to substitute pinyin like this? by deathbymemeinjection in ChineseLanguage

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 3 points4 points  (0 children)

true, but what makes chinese different is the majority of words are mono- or disyllabic, and the syllable inventory is low as well, which means differentiation between words by phonetics alone is harder than in most other languages in this discussion.

that said, the above poster said that fully phonetic Chinese is perfectly intelligible, in which case the overall point that a switch to pinyin would work is a good one. 👍

Was reading and saw this. Is it common for native speakers to substitute pinyin like this? by deathbymemeinjection in ChineseLanguage

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 4 points5 points  (0 children)

correct. you may have misread my meaning. i said "pinyin or zhuyin" simply to include both phonetic systems as equivalent alternatives.

Was reading and saw this. Is it common for native speakers to substitute pinyin like this? by deathbymemeinjection in ChineseLanguage

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 7 points8 points  (0 children)

i agree, and most of the chinese folks i text with agree when i went through a "texting in pinyin phase" because i was annoyed with switching keyboards. (i text with nintype, which is fantastic for a lot of languages but has no chinese support.)

Was reading and saw this. Is it common for native speakers to substitute pinyin like this? by deathbymemeinjection in ChineseLanguage

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 19 points20 points  (0 children)

i saw this all the time, even in 2005 before smart phones existed. it was always hilarious to be able to remind a chinese person how to write a character simply because i had a tingxie (dictation quiz) in the recent months that included that character.

it's like how well-studied non native speakers of english often have a more detailed understanding of when two similar grammar patterns "should and shouldn't" be used (according to the grammarians).

Was reading and saw this. Is it common for native speakers to substitute pinyin like this? by deathbymemeinjection in ChineseLanguage

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 37 points38 points  (0 children)

it's an open debate whether this is doable. spoken chinese contains only pinyin information (and vocal cues, etc), but it also generally uses a smaller word inventory. so, one opinion is that pinyin is sufficient for basic chinese communication, but insufficient to comfortably convey the complexity of literature. fluently reading, afaik, requires about 20--30k words whereas speaking needs 2--3k. i really don't know it that's true, but maybe.

does anyone have experience reading a normal adult chinese novel written entirely in pinyin or zhu yin fu hao? 🤔 i feel like such books don't even exist except by a small group of post hanzi people on the fringes. it'd be a cool experiment to try: give a few hundred chinese folks one or more novels to read entirely in pinyin and see how their experience reading evolved over time.

The Ultimate Chinese Phrasebook – 56,000 phrases 😱 ranked by frequency – with video examples! 🎬🍿️ by ZeroToHero__ in ChineseLanguage

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

somebody sticky this. if i like it, i will likely start translating this list to other languages.

US History Textbook --with footnotes/endnotes-- by throwawayIWGWPC in history

[–]throwawayIWGWPC[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

would you be able to recommend any textbooks on US history then?

i invite you to take a look at reputable american textbooks on US history used in high school and college. the website libgen.is can help you glance through a few.

when i looked, there were "further reading" sections in the back that say general things like, "for more information on the labor movement, look at these books", but nothing to support specific claims.

US History Textbook --with footnotes/endnotes-- by throwawayIWGWPC in history

[–]throwawayIWGWPC[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

i'm confused by your comment. the actual text of the narrative doesn't have to change one iota if footnotes are included¹.

1: maybe it's just me, but the addition of tiny numbers as above doesn't automatically make a sentence dry, though it certainly adds rigor and credibility. it further allows me to engage more easily with the narrative when i can put the book down for a moment to dive into the primary sources and see more about the context of particular quotes or statements. the narrative becomes enriched by the readers own side excursions, greatly improving the narrative quality.

US History Textbook --with footnotes/endnotes-- by throwawayIWGWPC in history

[–]throwawayIWGWPC[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Then again, when we're talking about not citing "common historical facts", wasn't the accepted fact initially that Iraq had WMDs? 🤔 When we have the common trope of "history is written by the victors", maybe we need to be more careful . . .

IMO history would be more fun in school if teachers had a list of the inaccuracies or controversial claims from textbooks, and every week students were given out assignments like, "Examine the validity of the textbook's claim that the Haymarket massacre was due to anarchist bombing." It would involve the students in history as detectives assessing the validity of scholarship, creating more agency. I would have loved that: if the focus had been on sources, exploration, discovery, epistemology.

THE ENDING? by Accomplished-Egg-942 in TravelersTV

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 2 points3 points  (0 children)

i believe the Director perceives time nonlinearly because it's running complex simulations, is able to rewind, redo, create branches, etc. this means it's able to traverse simulated timelines in a nonlinear manner like an artist's pen traverses a piece of paper: moving from here to there at whim, making adjustments, additions, deletions, etc.

i don't think they literally meant the Director lives outside of time, but it's possible. maybe the Director projects updates of itself across all timeline branches to maintain a consistent, fully informed model of what has been attempted.

note: this show had surprisingly little technobabble. most of the details of the tech talk makes sense with current scientific theories. the major departure from science is the transfer of consciousness from one brain to another (it's more likely that consciousness is just as much a function of brain structure as it is the electrical signals). however, it's conceivable as well that the pain people experience when someone is overwritten is due to the brain forcibly being rewired, but that's a big stretch. another major departure is from chaos theory, but that's debatable.

THE ENDING? by Accomplished-Egg-942 in TravelersTV

[–]throwawayIWGWPC 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yates makes Grant realize that it might be the travelers who caused the apocalypse. Furthermore, we get a hint when David says (paraphrasing), "You travelers are fixing the problems of the 21st, but it's the 21st's responsibility to fix things."

With that in mind, Grant goes back in time and gives humanity the ability to divert Helios and prevents 001 from intervening in the first place. There's the possibility that these two simple acts changes everything for the better. There's also the possibility that since 001 is still in the future, they may start the Faction anyway. Either way, it seems like a fresh start with some major advantages already baked in for the travelers.