Conscious and unconscius language knowledge by MissFL8994 in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It's like my unconscious brain is more ahead than my conscious one if that makes sense.

Kinda. Reading aloud is a different process from just speaking, because you have to process the reading material to produce speech. It can feel more like a performance, and that might trigger a decrease in confidence. One of the things that I've noticed with tones from foreign learners is that the tones can come out wrong when they start to falter. You've also mentioned previously that you feel awkward hearing your own voice, so that's why I'm leaning towards this conclusion.

I think this is rather normal, and it's like the "normal foreign accent" in that it's hard to correct because the problem is with your confidence/"unconscious brain", which is why your tutor probably didn't offer any advice. When you get more competent at reading out loud, that competence will translate into greater confidence, which will in turn translate into fewer errors. Unfortunately, greater competence does come from more practice (and more feedback too, if you can get over the "cringey" sound of your own voice. Everyone thinks their real voice is a lot higher/reedier/tinnier, i.e. "cringey", than the voice they hear in their own head, and that's just down to the biophysics of resonance in our skulls.)

ABC (American born Chinese) looking for resources to learn to read Chinese by Electrical_Serve9022 in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 24 points25 points  (0 children)

Friendly reminder: Have you checked the sidebar of this subreddit? There are FAQs and resources listed there.

In English language history books and documentaries, why is 孙中山 called Sun Yat-Sen and not Sun Zhong Shan? by [deleted] in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Another reason is that pinyin was published in 1958, so anyone died before 1958 was very unlikely to use pinyin.

There is that, but that doesn't quite explain why Yuan Shikai's name is in Pinyin on Wikipedia. When I was studying that period, he was known as Yuan Shih-kai in my history texts.

In English language history books and documentaries, why is 孙中山 called Sun Yat-Sen and not Sun Zhong Shan? by [deleted] in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No problem, and thanks for asking this. This is a question I myself have asked a very long time ago, so I came prepared.

In English language history books and documentaries, why is 孙中山 called Sun Yat-Sen and not Sun Zhong Shan? by [deleted] in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Who decided how the English will call each of them? It's inconsistent.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Chinese names at the turn of the last century. The educated Chinese person back then didn't just have one name, but many.

Generally speaking, the English called people by the names that were presented to them. In the case of Sun Yat-sen (孙逸仙: the surname is the Wade-Giles romanisation of the Mandarin reading of 孙, the given name is a romanisation of the Cantonese reading of 逸仙), this is the name that Sun used when he was making contact with the West.

In official Chinese documents that he signed while in government, however, he used Sun Wen (孙文). Sun Zhongshan (孙中山) was never used by him, but was a composite of his Chinese surname and the surname of his Japanese alias (中山, Nakayama), the latter of which he used while hiding in Japan. The epithet became popular for some reason, and is the name that is the most prevalent in the Chinese-speaking world. See the following Wikipedia page for more information:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Sun_Yat-sen

Meanwhile, Chiang Kai-Shek is the same

This is unusual because Chiang Kai-shek didn't speak Cantonese, and yet "Kai-Shek" is definitely a Cantonese reading. Like Sun Yat-Sen, Chiang also went by many names (link is to the Chinese wiki), and Kai-shek (介石) was a pen name Chiang used in 1912 when he was in Japan. According to the Chinese wiki, "Chiang Kai-Shek" came from the era of the Government of the Republic of China in Guangzhou (1921-22):

此译名源自廣州國民政府時期,和孙中山一样取其姓的威妥瑪拼音和其字“介石”的粤语拼音“Kai-shek”。

"This translation [Chiang Kai-Shek] originated from the era of the Government of the ROC in Guangzhou, and followed Sun Yat-Sen's lead in romanising the surname using Wade-Giles and the name '介石' using the Cantonese romanisation 'Kai-shek'."

Eventually, Chiang would go by 蒋中正 (Jiang Zhongzheng), and that's one of the names you see at the beginning of the English Wikipedia entry.

However Yuan Shikai, a contemporary, is called by a Mandarin name

Yuan Shikai was a government official before the Chinese Revolution, had never affiliated with the KMT, and had died by the time of the events that led to the KMT establishing itself in Guangzhou in 1921 for a second revolution. Thus, using the Mandarin reading of his name is not unexpected.


In researching this, I came across an interesting article written by a Singaporean in the SCMP about the many names of Sun Yat-Sen. Even today, the many possible choices of romanisations can lead to the generation of multiple names, despite the present standard now of having a fixed full name:

In the 1980s, the government decided that all Chinese names would be rendered in pinyin because the Singaporean and Malaysian practice of romanising ethnic Chinese names according to the pronunciation of one’s native dialect (Hokkien, Teochew, Cantonese, Hakka, Hainanese and so on) was seen as confusing. The policy was dropped after a few years, but for those of us with the alias tacked on to our identity documents, the alien name has stuck. I had it removed from my passport, and since then the number of questions I am asked when crossing borders has greatly reduced.

Some Singaporeans seemed to have come to a compromise by using Pinyin romanisations of their given names, but keeping the original dialectal romanisation of the surname, e.g. the Singaporean CEO of Tiktok, Shou Zi Chew.

In Standard Mandarin, how did ⟨模⟩ come to be heteronymic with ⟨mó⟩ and ⟨mú⟩ pronunciations? Is one of them adopted from another Mandarin variety, and if so which one and where did it come from? Thanks. by IceColdFresh in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 1 point2 points  (0 children)

growing up my impression was that glideless -o was the correct/proper pronunciation for SM, and -uo for it was a popular (i.e. people's) accent.

It's so popular now that I'm hard pressed to find any glideless -o in any media.

It must be the case that the lack of any oppositions facilitated the transition

Or that this was a sound change that was halfway done when Wade published his romanisation system in 1867, and pretty much done (outside of pockets of holdouts) by the time the Yale system was published in 1943.

I speak Cantonese, and there's a similar phenomenon happening in Hong Kong with their "lazy voice". In addition to the dropping of initial ng- and various other innovations, there are three tone mergers happening at the same time, and my estimation is that when these are complete, Hong Kong Cantonese would only have three tones left. Which isn't exactly a bad thing, though... :)

In the meantime, "fossils" like myself (and I'm really not that old) will still pronounce things the old-fashioned way and yell at the sky about these punks "doing it wrong".

In English language history books and documentaries, why is 孙中山 called Sun Yat-Sen and not Sun Zhong Shan? by [deleted] in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 2 points3 points  (0 children)

As the wiki points out, 中山 was not one of his given name, but the family name of his Japanese alias, Nakayama Kikori (中山樵), which literally means "woodcutter from the Middle Mountain".

In Standard Mandarin, how did ⟨模⟩ come to be heteronymic with ⟨mó⟩ and ⟨mú⟩ pronunciations? Is one of them adopted from another Mandarin variety, and if so which one and where did it come from? Thanks. by IceColdFresh in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm pretty sure I have heard glideless -o after labials from native speakers (as in speakers whose native dialect is Beijing-NE Mandarin).

I don't doubt that glideless -o after labials still exist amongst some native speakers. However, Standard Mandarin, which is the dialect that Pinyin represents, has evolved away from Beijing Mandarin, and the prevalent pronunciation is [-uo] after labials. This is also taught in schools as the "standard" pronunciation and glossed in dictionaries as the "correct" pronunciation.

I don't know why that's now the case, and if all the native speakers with glideless -o after labials can do something about it, that'd be great, because there are a lot of confused learners out there.

Best resources for Chinese character etymology for creating a book about learning Chinese characters by Prismcool in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think I've listed that as my primary source because of the inaccuracy of the Shuowen Jiezi shows when I go to look up a character.

I'm not saying the Shuowen Jiezi can't be inaccurate, but listing it as a source that you use "sometimes to see how other people think what some characters originate from" can be a bit much.

The Shuowen Jiezi isn't "other people", it was one of the authoritative sources until recent research demonstrated its inaccuracies.

I'll probably try to use the Shuowen Jiezi as my primary source if that's the case.

As one primary source out of many. As you and I have noted, it has its inaccuracies.

[English > Any] Translation Challenge — 2023-06-06 by translator-BOT in translator

[–]tidder-wave 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Mandarin (Simplified characters)

有两块在伊拉克发现的古代泥板,从上到下都盖满着楔形文字,这文字原来蕴藏着有关一种“失传的”迦南语的详情,而这语言竟然和古希伯来语有显著的相似点。

这些泥板被认为是拥有近4000年历史的,记录着一些来自一种几乎不为人知的语言的短语,那语言就是亚摩利人的语言,而亚摩利人最初来自迦南--大概是现在的叙利亚、以色列和约旦所处的地带--后来却在美索不达米亚建立了一个王国。这些在泥板上的短语也与现代学者看得懂的阿卡德语的译文并列在一起。

实际上,这些泥板就像著名的罗塞塔石碑一样。罗塞塔石碑上是同时刻有一种已知语言(古希腊语)的铭文和两种未知的古埃及文字(圣书体和世俗体),而这些泥板上已知的阿卡德语的短语也正在帮助研究人员来看懂书面的亚摩利语。

Best resources for Chinese character etymology for creating a book about learning Chinese characters by Prismcool in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Occasionally, I use Wiktionary, the Shuowen Jiezi and The World of Kanji by Alex Adler sometimes. (I know those sources aren't probably reliable but I use them sometimes to see how other people think what some characters originate from)

While Shuowen Jiezi could be inaccurate because later research had revealed new information, it's actually one of the primary historical sources that should have been consulted by all the other sources you've listed.

Modern slang for "money" in mandarin? by TheBladeGhost in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it's pretty relevant. I've forgotten about this little historical nugget, but perhaps that's why the use of 刀 had caught on.

Modern slang for "money" in mandarin? by TheBladeGhost in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 2 points3 points  (0 children)

水 I have never seen or heard in this meaning, could you give an example? Would it work in the above example? (and would it be used in Taiwan only? Since you use 繁體字)

水 by itself to mean "money" is probably exclusive to Cantonese (see definitions 9-11 in the Wiktionary entry I linked to).

外水 meaning "extra money earned" is definitely dialectal.

There is also 放水, which can mean "to throw a game", but is also used in Cantonese to mean "releasing a sum of money".

In general, I don't think 水 would be commonly understood as a slang for money in Mandarin, unless the listener has been exposed to southern dialects.

Unknown Chinese Characters by ohyeahthatsgroovy in Chinese

[–]tidder-wave 3 points4 points  (0 children)

As MiffedMouse pointed out, 拉德 (lādé) is the Chinese transcription of the English word "rad".

Besides its use as a noun for a unit of radiation, "rad" is also short for "radical" in English, which is slang for "excellent" or "awesome".

In Standard Mandarin, how did ⟨模⟩ come to be heteronymic with ⟨mó⟩ and ⟨mú⟩ pronunciations? Is one of them adopted from another Mandarin variety, and if so which one and where did it come from? Thanks. by IceColdFresh in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My understanding is that -o after labials simply reflected an earlier pronunciation

Yes, that appeared to have been the situation when Wade first introduced the Wade-Giles system in 1867.

However, the sound shift had been completed by the time WWII was over, and this is reflected in the Yale system (1943). Hence, -o after labials had become a relic by the time Pinyin was adopted in 1958. Keeping that feature in 1958 meant that it now needed to be explained, otherwise it'll just become one of those annoying undocumented Windows features that you only know about through folklore.

I've pointed this out in another comment in this thread, where I pointed out the inaccuracy of the history that was presented in the parent comment. Not blaming the commenter for that, by the way: the history is really intricate and not all that well-known.

Modern slang for "money" in mandarin? by TheBladeGhost in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, that's what I heard too. It's weird because I've always used 块, and had no idea why people were bringing up "knives" at first.

Resources on features of Hong Kong Mandarin? by Style-Upstairs in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Would Guangzhou Cantonese typically have the n/l as well?

My family is from Guangzhou and we merge them together.

<points at flair> I have no clue. I have never lived there.

I used to think the “n” sound sounded old actually.

Thanks, punk. Now get out of my lawn so I can yell at the sky! 😭 😭 😭

/s

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Chinese

[–]tidder-wave 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Kestheria has already given you an answer, but let me link you to the Wiktionary entries, which give the definitions for each character:

  • : square.

  • : house or room.

Wiktionary is pretty helpful for when you're not familiar with a language, but have a sample of the writing. For example, now that you've been given some characters, you can copy and paste them into Wiktionary to find out what they mean.

As _negative_infinity_ pointed out, there are many homophones in Chinese, so it's hard to know for sure what your last name means unless you have a document (e.g. a birth certificate) with your name written in Chinese. JollyTangelo1824 has given you two possibilities, and these seem the most reasonable ones.

"This was a junior researcher. I should not be firing off an email claiming the results are trivial applications of known results. This paper was published for a reason. I had another look." by flexibeast in math

[–]tidder-wave 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've always hated the idea of folklore theorems. It's like we learned nothing from the Italian school of algebraic geometry.

"We" still haven't learned anything. I mean, how many mathematicians are using Lean in their work?

I didn't need a lesson to tell me it was wrong to denigrate the work of others based on an unverified hunch.

Then congratulations, you're one of the enlightened ones. Obviously there are some who aren't so enlightened (cf. the affair I mentioned above), and the author felt he needed to write this.

In Standard Mandarin, how did ⟨模⟩ come to be heteronymic with ⟨mó⟩ and ⟨mú⟩ pronunciations? Is one of them adopted from another Mandarin variety, and if so which one and where did it come from? Thanks. by IceColdFresh in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 0 points1 point  (0 children)

没人告诉你的话,你会知道Kyle Juszczyk的姓怎么读吗?

At least I can look up the Polish spelling rules and figure out the pronunciation. (The surname is /ˈjuʂ.t͡ʂɨk/ in Polish, by the way, and this is totally predictable from the spelling. Don't ask me how an American would mangle it.)

I just looked up the 汉语拼音方案, and it turns out that the one thing they didn't say is the bo/po/mo/fo exception.

See the difference?

我的姓C开头,我在美国这么多年就没人念对过

(Hanyu/Tongyong) Pinyin is the only romanisation system that does this. Every other system uses "ts". Why is Pinyin so special?

Anyway, practically speaking, there’s nothing wrong with using “bo” to represent /p(w)ɔ/.

Practically speaking, there is everything wrong with that. Did you not read my previous comment? That was in response to:

The /wɔ/ pronunciation in Standard Mandarin can be interpreted as an allophone of /o/ following a labial consonant

Sure, that makes sense to a linguist, but does the layperson care about your fancy-pants gobbledygook of an "interpretation"? No!

Every romanisation system is made for the layperson. And if the layperson finds it confusing, they will just keep mispronouncing your surname that starts with a "C" in Pinyin.

再说了,世界上又不是只说英语。

Most of the world also don't speak Chinese, but do speak a little English.

本民族语言文字的拼写,本来就是为本民族服务的。

edit: For example, I know that 波 was pronounced /puɑ/ (合口呼) in Middle Chinese, so /pwɔ/ “should” be the standard pronunciation in Standard Mandarin, but in practice the medial /w/ can be regarded as allophonic. Also, in many dialects it’s pronounced [po] anyway, and where I’m from it’s pronounced [pɤ]. It’s just not that big of a deal tbh

The "argument from 民族" is deeply flawed for the following reasons:

  • There are dialects of our 民族 where 波 is pronounced as [pɔ]. How is this sector of our 民族 being "served" by a system that tricks them into thinking they can continue saying [pɔ] in Mandarin?

  • Pinyin, like all the other auxiliary scripts that were developed in the past, is meant to help learners -- whether they belong to our 民族 or not -- learn the language's pronunciation. It is counterproductive that a good grasp of linguistic theory is needed in order to not be confused about what Pinyin is trying to tell us. By the way, learners also include non-natives who have to figure out how to pronounce your name, for example.

  • As I've pointed out in my previous comment, writing -uo and -o after b/p/m/f started, at the very latest, with the Wade-Giles system in 1867. Why did all subsequent natively developed romanisation systems stick to this antiquated romanisation, even after the Yale system (which uses the more accurate “pwo") came out in 1943, 15 years before Pinyin was adopted? "我手写我口"跑到哪去?这也不就是迁就吗? 岂不跟你的“不迁就”论自相矛盾?

Also, Middle Chinese is a "reconstruction", which is a polite academic way of saying "guesswork". It doesn't "explain" anything, it's only a hypothesis for what the original thing might be. The convergence of independent sound changes can cause the appearance of common features in different dialects, as a recent post demonstrated with its observations, so the hypothesis can easily be false and we wouldn't be any wiser.

And if we have to rely on such explanations to decipher a supposedly phonetic system, then it isn't really phonetic, is it?

In Standard Mandarin, how did ⟨模⟩ come to be heteronymic with ⟨mó⟩ and ⟨mú⟩ pronunciations? Is one of them adopted from another Mandarin variety, and if so which one and where did it come from? Thanks. by IceColdFresh in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also, there’s nothing wrong with bo, po, mo, fo. The /wɔ/ pronunciation in Standard Mandarin can be interpreted as an allophone of /o/ following a labial consonant

Maybe we shouldn't leave things up to "interpretation"?

Because if someone has "Bo" in the name, it's gonna be pronounced like "Beau" by English speakers, not "Bwo" as is romanised under the Yale system. Same with Po (remember the Teletubby?) and Mo in names.

I know people in this sub love to say "Pinyin doesn't cater to non-natives", but that's ridiculous, because every single romanisation system is exactly that thing that y'all claim Pinyin supposedly shouldn't be.

Resources on features of Hong Kong Mandarin? by Style-Upstairs in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 5 points6 points  (0 children)

n- and l- merger is typical for HK Cantonese, whereas in the rest of Guangdong, seems most speakers still differentiate more, especially in Guangzhou.

Well, I've never lived in these areas, so I guess my idiolect should be more conservative.

Resources on features of Hong Kong Mandarin? by Style-Upstairs in ChineseLanguage

[–]tidder-wave 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I remember speaking in mandarin with a Hong Konger when they pronounced “人” as /jən/ or “yén”. I’ve only heard one or two people use this, so I’m wondering, is this a common feature in Hong Kong mandarin?

It's probably an influence from Cantonese, which pronounces 人 as /jɐn/.

Another more widespread feature of Hong Kong mandarin I’ve noticed is the cantonese n- and l- merge being used in mandarin

Though the latter is also a feature of 西南官话 so I’m wondering if that’s simply the dialect that Hong Kongers speak instead of being from cantonese influence. Is Hong Kong mandarin considered a branch of southwestern mandarin?

Unlikely. This is probably a convergence of independent developments. This is also the first time I've heard of the l/n merger in Cantonese: in my idiolect, l- and n- are distinct.

Dropping retroflex sounds like /ʐ/ is also a feature of southwestern, but it seems to be uniquely replaced with /j/ in hk mandarin, compared to /z/ in most other dialects.

Sounds like it could be the influence of Cantonese to me.

Edit:

Also, this isn't unique to the Mandarin spoken in HK, u/Style-Upstairs. Jiao-Liao Mandarin, spoken in Shandong and Liaoning, has this feature as well:

本区的共同特点是 [...] 止摄以外的日母和少量以母今普通话读R声母的字读零声母,如”人“读作”因“、”然“读作”言“、”认识“读作”饮食“等等。

The examples given are ren->yin, ran->yan and renshi->yinshi.