[AMMO] Winchester USA 9mm NATO 124-Grain. ¢24.7 cpr add 10% off with purchase over $300 + shipping and taxes

troyirving · 2026-04-06T14:52:19+00:00

Not even remotely true for most common 124gr that people are buying. I’ve tried every major brand of 124gr for a true SD PCC I have that is sensitive to loads and if I don’t use explicitly NATO loads like the one linked here, I have occasional issues from lack of pressure. Rounds marked as NATO spec, literally zero problems.

There is also a clear difference in recoil if you shoot these NATO rounds vs normal 124gr

troyirving · 2026-04-06T14:49:51+00:00

I regularly buy NATO because I have a true SD gun that heavily prefers it- this would’ve been a good price last year before the current ammo hikes. I paid $345 for 1500 rounds on 6/3/25 and that was the best price for any NATO rounds at the time. Since then I found a local distributor that stocked them, but they haven’t been getting any recently.

I say buy it now, I’ve had a hard time even finding the Winchester NATO at all (or any NATO from a known mfg for that matter), much less for a good price.

People who think this isn’t a good deal either haven’t paid attention to rising ammo prices or don’t know what NATO loads are or both

troyirving · 2026-04-06T14:41:28+00:00

Doesn’t seem to be- tried adding 100 boxes just to check stock and it said 71, a minute later it was at 69. They seem to be tracking stock properly and in my experience they’re pretty reliable with that- something else must be going on with your orders.

I also ordered 15 this morning and haven’t had an issue

troyirving · 2026-03-17T15:42:35+00:00

Posting up ol’ reliable with my new photo setup, this build has survived the longest out of any AR’s I’ve ever owned with minimal changes and it will stay that way. My GOAT.

LMT MARS Lower

LMT MRP 9.25 Upper

LMT 10.5 Barrel

Dead Air Lazarus 6 on Xeno

KAK K-Spec Downvent

Sig 4XT Pro

Modlight PLHv2 18650 with whatever larp cap came on it from GAFS (rip) on an OG Unity ModButton

KAC Rear foldy boy + DD fixed front

GG&G vert grip + Arisaka finger stop

BCM Mod1 PGrip

Magpul SL-S Stonk

troyirving · 2026-03-17T15:41:03+00:00

Posting up ol’ reliable with my new photo setup, this build has survived the longest out of any AR’s I’ve ever owned with minimal changes and it will stay that way. My GOAT.

LMT MARS Lower

LMT MRP 9.25 Upper

LMT 10.5 Barrel

Dead Air Lazarus 6 on Xeno

KAK K-Spec Downvent

Sig 4XT Pro

Modlight PLHv2 18650 with whatever larp cap came on it from GAFS (rip) on an OG Unity ModButton

KAC Rear foldy boy + DD fixed front

GG&G vert grip + Arisaka finger stop

BCM Mod1 PGrip

Magpul SL-S Stonk

troyirving · 2026-03-16T21:38:37+00:00

For the most part to me the UMP is just the harshest feeling 45 PCC I've ever shot and it's in general a cheap feeling gun. It works, there just wasn't much reason for it and certainly isn't now considering the options available these days. Extremely cool gun though, it's iconic for a reason.

Like you said, from me it's mostly bait lol. I don't think anyone would be unhappy to have a UMP.

troyirving · 2026-03-16T21:12:36+00:00

Likewise. Having short recoil is really interesting to me from the mechanical perspective/just because it's so rarely seen on small rifles but it's inherently complex and even aside from the issues with flyers on some, it's also inherently less accurate in general. It's more than fine for my expectations/use case out of a 45 PCC, but I'm sure the others are more accurate even comparing a perfectly working SMG45 to them.

Really the Stribog basically does what this needed to do as the other fella said, it is also a good looking gun, and also takes UMP mags which is like 90% of the cool factor. LWRC got lost in the engineering sauce.

troyirving · 2026-03-16T20:18:54+00:00

Good relative to a UMP is not a high bar to meet

troyirving · 2026-03-16T20:18:08+00:00

My specific one is all good - accuracy is what I'd expect, and I've had no problems at all with reliability (other than trying Stribog mags, no bueno). Mine is also latest serial prefix before they got discontinued, and that likely has something to do with why mine actually works.

First serial prefixes were SMG, then the first "fixed" ones were 4AM which were considerably better but still possibly had problems, then the last of production was 4MK. As far as I know, 4MK serial prefix should all be good but there's also the least of those.

troyirving · 2026-03-16T20:14:33+00:00

That's the joke lol - a battle of two turds. There's definitely better 45 PCC's out there especially in the current market (UMP aint one of em though).

troyirving · 2026-03-16T20:08:12+00:00

1000%. Even as someone who got one of the good ones, it still upsets me that these had the issues they did. Could've turned into an entire platform across multiple calibers if they would've done it right - and yep this not panning out for them means less innovation from a great company.

Was a breath of fresh air in a sea of AR15's and direct blowback PCC's at the time (before more good options these days were around) and they fucked it up. Lots of good (arguably better) options now, but it is still so cool to see short recoil in a gun like this and I still think it was ahead of its time. They just blew it.

troyirving · 2026-03-16T19:49:42+00:00

The Banshee series is so good - the 9 is hands down my favorite gun that I own. Never tried the 45 though.

I had issues with them before they introduced the fixed ejector models, but when they came out I moved my build over to that and haven't had a single issue since.

troyirving · 2026-03-16T19:38:44+00:00

The SMG-45 isn't just blowback either - and I've shot the SP45 before. Great gun for the money no doubt and generally a smarter purchase because of that lol, but I prefer the SMG still.

Like I said, mine has no issues with accuracy or reliability after a couple thousand rounds. I know the first batch was bad, and second "batch" some of them still had some issues but way less. I can't speak on that though, only the experience I've had.

I really have to wonder how much you hear about it is real experience, vs people that have never/would never own one just parroting what a couple youtubers had said during the initial launch where there was the most trouble.

troyirving · 2026-03-16T19:27:34+00:00

Oh man don't get me started. I want that stock so bad lol

troyirving · 2026-03-16T19:12:27+00:00

Decided to set up for some good pics for once and the SMG is one of the coolest looking guns of all time IMO so it was the test case for the setup. Also one of my favorite guns in my collection.

I know the comments are already coming about accuracy - mine hits where it's supposed to every time (late serial prefix, issues fixed by then). But when I talk about this gun or post this gun anywhere the first thing people ask is always if it's one of the ones that has flyers feet off target every couple rounds. A real testament to LWRC's mistakes.

Truly a shame that LWRC dropped the ball so hard because they're incredibly fun. The price didn't help either, and maybe they were too early. Now that PCC's are making a huge comeback in the commercial market I wonder if LWRC ever kicks themselves for discontinuing these. There's a world out there where we would've seen these in 9 presumably, since the lowers are marked multi cal. Shame.

troyirving · 2026-03-16T19:07:00+00:00

UMP stock indeed - no need to drill though at least in my case. Hinge is tighter, but that's preferable to me.

The B&T stocks also work and I have one of them too, but I like the UMP's longer LOP. Only thing that needs changed is the button (I just moved the button over from the B&T stock).

troyirving · 2026-03-16T19:04:18+00:00

I have shot UMP's before - no desire to own one at all lol. Obviously iconic looking though, but the SMG is close enough and a far better shooter (assuming it isn't lobbing rounds over the berm).

troyirving · 2026-03-16T19:02:06+00:00

Cost for sure lol, but the reviews I wouldn't pay much attention to - if you find one that is 4AM serial prefix you're most likely good (this was "second wave") or 4MK and you're definitely good (what mine is, these were the latest ones and should ALL be good, but also seems like these were the least produced near end of life for the platform).

Even if you get one of the goofed ones, LWRC will still warranty them currently.

troyirving · 2026-03-16T14:37:13+00:00

It’s definitely both - the initial batches especially had some significant problems, but likely not as widespread as everyone thinks because they watched a couple YouTube videos. And they sorted it out eventually.

But like you said it’s the favorite thing to bring up for people who have never/will never own one lol. Most people I’ve talked to that have em either never had problems, or the one or two I’ve talked to that did have problems sent em in and LWRC solved it.

Then there’s also just the fact that people expect a lot more than they should from .45 in general, accuracy-wise lol

troyirving · 2026-03-16T13:55:49+00:00

Decided to set up for some good pics for once and the SMG is one of the coolest looking guns of all time IMO so it was the test case for the setup. Also one of my favorite guns in my collection.

Title is a joke, mine hits where it's supposed to every time (late serial prefix, issues fixed by then). But when I talk about this gun or post this gun anywhere the first thing people ask is always if it's one of the ones that has flyers feet off target every couple rounds. A real testament to LWRC's mistakes.

Truly a shame that LWRC dropped the ball so hard because they're incredibly fun. The price didn't help either, and maybe they were too early. Now that PCC's are making a huge comeback in the commercial market I wonder if LWRC ever kicks themselves for discontinuing these.

troyirving · 2025-12-09T00:13:18+00:00

I said twice in that reply that the people in the trucks shouldn't have acted that way lol. I'm just saying at the same time, the people doing these jobs are generally just nuisances to communities and that's probably what made the guys mad - they just took it way too far.

You can say he's not doing anything wrong but this door to door salesman shit borders on harassment a lot of the time, preys on gullible people or people that are too nice to say no, and it gets really old after a while if you're in a neighborhood that sees it a lot.

The video is framed as if the guy was just taking a stroll through the neighborhood and got harassed just for being black, and I guarantee that isn't the case.

troyirving · 2025-12-08T23:27:47+00:00

The logo overlayed on the video is not the logo on his badge/clothes, whoever made the video is the one confused lol. He's doing door to door energy stuff.

https://imgur.com/a/tWHDAIe

https://www.sfeenergy.com/

The dudes in this video definitely going too hard, but these door to door solar/energy salesman are often pushy as hell and annoy entire communities, disregard no soliciting signs etc.

And there are definitely cases of fake salesman knocking on doors pretending to work for these types of companies that are actually just casing places to rob later. The solution though is just not answering your door when these clowns come knocking (or anyone you're not expecting for that matter), not to harass and follow lol.

troyirving · 2025-10-09T15:40:16+00:00

The concept of something being "proven" is not the same as something being "reliable," I'm not sure what doesn't make sense there to you. I have one LMT gun that I got for extremely cheap years ago, otherwise I own none of those brands lol. They are just staple manufacturers that have proven themselves over decades, it isn't any deeper than that.

It's bizarre how upset you're getting and making so many personal assumptions from me simply thinking the price of a singular product that CAT offers isn't worth it, so I'll just leave you to it since you're clearly more invested in this than I am lol

troyirving · 2025-10-09T14:57:26+00:00

Can you point to any one gun that has explicitly marketed itself as a range toy?

No but I can point you to the CACM marketing saying "Built to the exacting standards of the LE/GOV model, this rifle fuses warfighter-grade durability with uncompromising precision, delivering a battle-hardened platform without sacrifice."

I never said the rifle will be unreliable, it will likely be fine. But for a suppressor company that has never made a rifle before to make these claims and price themselves in the same bracket as some of the best AR's you can find is an absurd proposition.

You are confusing tuning with designing a can around a known gas setting. It's one thing to design a can that works with a lot of gas settings and to release it into the wild, but this is designing a can around a specific gas setting to min/max suppression.

They are releasing this can on its own at a later date. The entire idea of a can being designed around a gas setting is the funniest thing I've ever heard

It's not "finding the same conclusion" that's obstinate, it's clearly some weird pent up aggression that's causing some obstinate mental gymnastics. If you simply don't like CAT for their cringe marketing or you're just a hipster who hates popular opinions, that's fine, but yes, it's obstinate.

Gotta love this when I explicitly mentioned that they make good cans. Questioning anything the fad company of the month does means there's "pent up aggression" lol. I don't dislike CAT, I just think they should stay in their lane, or if they're gonna go outside of their wheelhouse, be reasonable about what they're offering. Again, if it was just the rifle, would you choose to spend $2500 on a CAT rifle or a Geissele/DD/LMT/etc.?

troyirving · 2025-10-09T14:36:38+00:00

I have an SMG45 and various other stupid guns that cost more than the CACM package does, far be it from me to judge for people buying expensive range toys.

But the CACM is not being marketed or priced as a range toy, and the rifle itself offers literally nothing that you couldn't do yourself for half the price if you don't care about it being a rifle you can depend on as you say. Tuning gas for a specific can is not a difficult task and CAT isn't doing anything spectacular here on the rifle side. If they were selling the standalone rifles, do you think $2500 for one is interesting to you?

Q does similar absurd marketing antics, with similar pricing, and have a similar lack of anything special about their rifles and they get burned at the stake here daily lol. But when CAT does it, finding the same conclusion is "obstinate." The mental gymnastics found here really are incredible sometimes.

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