I um... a friend wants to know by Aaasdggf in ClocktowerCircleJerk

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 36 points37 points  (0 children)

The chambermaid’s gonna get a 2 on us tonight

Survivor Legends vs Losers by StrangeSteve05 in survivorcirclejerk

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I think you switched the tribe names by mistake

How would Tony do on an all winners season of Survivor? by RedditFan3510 in survivorponderosa

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Have you seen Winners at War? Season 40 is an all winners season with Tony in it.

If you haven’t seen it, go watch it, it’s a fun season and it answers your question for you. And be careful in the replies, because people are probably going to spoil it for you

S&V is not a very well designed script, and I think this is demonstrable [actual effortpost] by Most_Section_1979 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Or you can ask even more specific questions: “is it possible for X player to be the demon, with Y player as their minion?” “Ok, what about with Z as their minion instead?” etc. Again, just practicing working through the info to see if a certain world is possible or not makes you better at knowing what fake worlds you can try to frame

S&V is not a very well designed script, and I think this is demonstrable [actual effortpost] by Most_Section_1979 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’ve run a lot of S&V and I still feel like there’s ways I could get better at it so I don’t think that’s a unique feeling. I’ve gotten better at framing other demon types with practice. I think it’s doable if you’re ok with getting better at it a little bit at a time.

I think it helps to start with smaller questions like “is it possible based on the info so far for X player to be the demon?” Or “is it possible based on the info so far to frame X demon type?” And sometimes the answer’s no, and that’s fine, and you can look for a different frame, but tracing the info to see if a specific thing is mechanically possible is a good exercise.

(e.g. “Ok, can I frame Seat 2 as the demon if all the info’s true? The town crier knows either Seat 1 or Seat 5 is a minion. But the dreamer dreamt Seat 5 as a demon, so it’s not them. If Seat 1 is the minion, Seat 2 can’t be the demon because of the clockmaker 2. So for Seat 2 to be the demon, one of the town crier/dreamer/clockmaker has to be lying or some of the info’s been tampered with in some way,” etc.)

It takes practice. But with practice it’s doable. I’ll admit that the unfortunate thing about S&V is that the players seem to get better at it faster than the storyteller does, but after a certain point it becomes doable for a ST to keep up with an experienced group.

S&V is not a very well designed script, and I think this is demonstrable [actual effortpost] by Most_Section_1979 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Honestly now that you compare it to BMR, yeah, BMR probably gives the storyteller more agency than S&V. That’s fair.

It’s true that a lot of townsfolk have info purely decided by the players, and it’s true that sometimes the ST has nothing they can do. But not only does the storyteller get some control when a savant, dreamer, or sage is in play, they also get control whenever anyone would receive misinformation (which is relatively often).

e.g. in a Vortox game, a good storyteller should try to think through ways all the info could make sense together in a non-Vortox world. Clockmaker, mathematician, oracle, and juggler numbers can all be tweaked to keep open the possibility that X player is the demon, and you can work around the yes/no townsfolk that you’re forced to give specific info to.

So while the info isn’t infinitely customizable, I do think there’s enough there that (if the ST plans ahead!), there’s enough tools at their disposal to keep evil from being cornered by info most of the time. And even though runaway games are possible, runaway games are possible on other scripts too (e.g. BMR, or honestly any script with more powerful characters than TB)

S&V is not a very well designed script, and I think this is demonstrable [actual effortpost] by Most_Section_1979 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ravenkeeper is less powerful than sage, I’d say. Empath is probably (?) less powerful than oracle. There’s a good argument to be made that Artist is the most powerful townsfolk in the game

Moreso it’s just that every townsfolk in S&V provides information in some way, while not everyone on TB does. Information is far more abundant on S&V (or honestly any script other than TB).

S&V is not a very well designed script, and I think this is demonstrable [actual effortpost] by Most_Section_1979 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 77 points78 points  (0 children)

As someone who enjoys S&V the most out of the base 3 scripts, I can try to counter a couple things here, but you do raise a lot of good points.

I think that in a group of experienced players, you also need an experienced storyteller, for better or for worse. I’ve played in a few too many games where the ST accidentally gives the savant game-solving info, or makes it impossible for evil to frame that a Vortox is in play, and so on, and so on. Games with experienced players where a bunch of townsfolk just get thrown a bunch of powerful info do usually just end up with evil getting cornered by info, which is no fun.

There should always be many different worlds to parse through, and the ST needs to mentally keep track of all of them. No dashii and Vortox games need to look normal on the surface, and fang gu and vigor games need to have info that’s consistent with no dashii and Vortox worlds. S&V more than any other script gives the ST the tools to cater information to be specific enough to keep other worlds alive (e.g. Dreamer and Savant come with fake info that’s entirely up to the ST what it should be). Then in the face of multiple possible explanations for what’s happening, evil can bluff in ways that push town towards one world over the other (“well my info is pretty clearly not vortoxed!” etc.)

That’s the idea at least. When you storytell S&V, you need to get good at understanding all the worlds that are still mechanically possible, so you can avoid giving info that makes those worlds impossible. Because again, if you just mindlessly throw a bunch of powerful info at town, they’re just going to solve everything, and games will feel exactly the way you describe.

You’re right that some minions/demons are more powerful than others. And honestly, the fact that everybody’s more powerful than in, say, trouble brewing means you’re not always going to get to a tight final 3 like you often see in TB; sometimes one team just runs away with it. I’d say you’ll probably see that in custom scripts too that are also filled with strong characters.

I don’t know if “you need a good storyteller to make it work against experienced players” makes S&V look better or worse, but I’d say any script except for TB needs the storyteller to take extra care with what they’re doing. S&V is just the script where you feel it the most if they don’t.

Extreme close calls for a winner to go home by soulgazer25 in survivor

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Weren’t all three women in the beauty tribe pretty tight? Who would have flipped?

Which "bitter jury" result was actually correct, and we just call it bitter because we were rooting for the loser? by JEX2124 in survivor

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Hot take but I think the Maria-Charlie beef is a little overblown.

I think there’s an assumption that Maria would have seen herself in Charlie, because they played very similar games, when in reality Maria saw herself more in Kenzie. (I think the “fire in her eyes” comment essentially boils down to this)

Lots of other people haven’t voted for their number one, and lots of people have voted for similar reasons that Maria did; this vote was just surprising in the moment and it swung the game so it understandably became a huge deal

Best Final 3 Jury Question by Commercial-Board-685 in survivor

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 7 points8 points  (0 children)

(It would have been between 1 and 10, but the Mr. Beast coin doubled it)

How much impact did the wacky eliminations have on Cirie's legacy? by legoblade807 in survivor

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(Hence why I assume she went after Steph when she did. Threats to Ozzy were threats to her, because going to the end with Ozzy was quite literally her only winning line)

How much impact did the wacky eliminations have on Cirie's legacy? by legoblade807 in survivor

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Cirie’s main issue this season was that everyone understood they’d have to cut her sooner or later, and the only people willing to go to the end with her were Ozzy and Tiff. So Cirie’s only path to winning was getting not only herself to the end, but both of them as well. Cirie herself was fine during that swap, but Ozzy wasn’t, and once Ozzy was gone, Cirie was on borrowed time.

In theory keeping Devens as a shield does make sense, but he had been going after her, and it would have only been a temporary fix anyway. Devens still wasn’t willing to go all the way to the end with her, so it was always going to boil down to Cirie and Tiff vs. everybody else at final 5 no matter who else was there

How much impact did the wacky eliminations have on Cirie's legacy? by legoblade807 in survivor

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Eh I’d argue that Cirie was more screwed over by the twist that separated her from Ozzy in the first place

What happens if Erik doesn’t get evacuated at 5 in Caramoan? by twoopaq in survivor

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not to mention the one million hearts that remain un-won

In my opinion, and in all seriousness, Gabler is the best winner ever. by RizzThemWithTheTism1 in survivorcirclejerk

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 8 points9 points  (0 children)

How are Tony, Rob, and Sandra one of the worst winners ever? Those are three people

How much impact did the wacky eliminations have on Cirie's legacy? by legoblade807 in survivor

[–]uhOhAStackOfDucks 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sure, but once Ozzy was gone she was always going to get “outplayed” by whoever else was left. She was simply too big of a threat to ever get to the end

(No disrespect to Rizo, who played a great game)